Current Events > jenova is a more compelling villain than sephiroth (FF7 spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

an unknowable alien entity that is completely eldritch in its thoughts and is basically the thing

is far more compelling to me than a mamas boy with a god complex

I personally find the motivation of a human more captivating than the emptiness of a space flea from nowhere unless we go full lovecratfian horror, which is not ff7.

Quezovercoatl posted...

I personally find the motivation of a human more captivating than the emptiness of a space flea from nowhere unless we go full lovecratfian horror, which is not ff7.

errrr jenova is not a space flea from nowhere i dont think you know what that trope means

What's your opinion on the Jenova Aerith theory?

idk, Jenova is more of a "force" or an "idea" than an actual character, while Sephiroth is a person whose motivations we can actually sort of trace.

It's like saying Yu Yevon is more compelling than Jecht or Seymour.

Rharyx211 posted...

idk, Jenova is more of a "force" or an "idea" than an actual character, while Sephiroth is a person whose motivations we can actually sort of trace.

It's like saying Yu Yevon is more compelling than Jecht or Seymour.

you ever seen john carpenters the thing

Yeah. Ff7 was interesting with the eco terrorists vs an evil energy company. Then it just goes downhill after you leave Midgard.

Disagree. Something that is unknowable is usually lazy/boring writing. There are exceptions but it wouldnt be the case for FF7 if there wasnt Shinra and Sephiroth as well

Rika_Furude posted...

Disagree. Something that is unknowable is usually lazy/boring writing. There are exceptions but it wouldnt be the case for FF7 if there wasnt Shinra and Sephiroth as well

and what is interesting about sephiroth

JENOVA was interesting, but in terms of more Monstrous/Inhuman major villains, I'd probably still rank Giygas, Lavos, and Deus from Xenogears higher. Not Sin, though.

The great thing about FF7 is that it has a lot of great villains. Shinra, Sephiroth, Jenova, the Turks, Hojo, Don Corneo

pick your poison

Rharyx211 posted...

idk, Jenova is more of a "force" or an "idea" than an actual character, while Sephiroth is a person whose motivations we can actually sort of trace.

Sephiroth's motivation is "get real powerful" in FF7 and then "provide fanservice" in the compilation.

Amazing.

Jenova speaks one line of dialogue in the whole game. Anyone know what it is?

Sonixs posted...

Jenova speaks one line of dialogue in the whole game. Anyone know what it is?

the puppet line

which i think would be better if it was also that sephiroth was just jenovas puppet

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

Sephiroth's motivation is "get real powerful" in FF7 and then "provide fanservice" in the compilation.

Amazing.

Now, I didn't say Sephiroth was a masterpiece of character writing. We're switching gears here.

(But also you're being pretty disingenuous.)

AceMos posted...

the puppet line

which i think would be better if it was also that sephiroth was just jenovas puppet

Also fun fact about that line. It contains a typo lol

Beacause, you are......a puppet.

Pikachuchupika posted...

The great thing about FF7 is that it has a lot of great villains. Shinra, Sephiroth, Jenova, the Turks, Hojo, Don Corneo

pick your poison

Don't forget about Scarlet.

I always wished there'd be a prequel game focusing on Jenova's arrival, her attack on the Cetra, and the battle to seal her up.

Imagine playing through with your party till the end just to realize one party member was her all along and you've been played the whole time.

KogaSteelfang posted...

I always wished there'd be a prequel game focusing on Jenova's arrival, her attack on the Cetra, and the battle to seal her up.

Imagine playing through with your party till the end just to realize one party member was her all along and you've been played the whole time.

go a step further make it the PROTAGONIST

Jenova is just Lavos ver 2.0.

jwlim80 posted...

Jehova is just Lavos ver 2.0.

no she is the thing

AceMos posted...

go a step further make it the PROTAGONIST

Works for me.

To be fair to Sephiroth I suppose, it seems like they're actually doing something a bit interesting for Sephiroth in the current compilation by delving into his youth in that Ever Crisis game. Shame it's a grind-heavy mobile gacha game though.

Jenova's pretty cool though and I like just how it's a horrific abomination whenever it tries to mimic something.

AceMos posted...

and what is interesting about sephiroth

His backstory as a hero turned villain was more interesting than whatever Jenova had going on

Rika_Furude posted...

His backstory as a hero turned villain was more interesting than whatever Jenova had going on

*shrug* i dont find that particularly interesting as its a rather standard JRPG plot

what other JRPG has the thing as an antagonist

AceMos posted...

*shrug* i dont find that particularly interesting as its a rather standard JRPG plot

what other JRPG has the thing as an antagonist

I never said he was the most interesting villain of all time really. Just that Jenova's potential to be a good villain doesn't mean that she was a better villain than Hojo, Sephiroth, Shinra etc. It's a potential vs execution thing for me.

I don't know why we're diminishing Sephiroth's character to try and prop up Jenova ITT. He's an interesting character, even if his goal is cliche.

FatBrett did a pretty good character analysis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxnZYIeJ1jY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQAsZK1lkEU

It's been a while since I played FF7, but afaik it was completely up to interpretation whether Sephiroth controlled Jenova or if it actually was vice versa, right? That is, in the original game.

I really like that.

However, then appeared all the additional stuff which hamfistedly tells us that of course Sephiroth is and always was in control.

I don't like that as much.

ARTEMlS posted...

It's been a while since I played FF7, but afaik it was completely up to interpretation whether Sephiroth controlled Jenova or if it actually was vice versa, right? That is, in the original game.

I really like that.

However, then appeared all the additional stuff which hamfistedly tells us that of course Sephiroth is and always was in control.

I don't like that as much.

It only makes sense that Sephiroth is in control. Jenova has no reason to be obsessed with Cloud like Sephiroth is.

jumi posted...

It only makes sense that Sephiroth is in control. Jenova has no reason to be obsessed with Cloud like Sephiroth is.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think he is obsessed with Cloud in the original game. Cloud is just a convenient pawn because he's close to Aerith and they get access to the Black Materia.

Sephiroth grows more obsessive in subsequent material cuz Cloud murdered him.

pegusus123456 posted...

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think he is obsessed with Cloud in the original game. Cloud is just a convenient pawn because he's close to Aerith and they get access to the Black Materia.

Sephiroth grows more obsessive in subsequent material cuz Cloud murdered him.

indeed sephiroth really does not give a shit about cloud in the original game

there was no crap about removing the light from cloud or making cloud suffer or any of that

once he got the black materia he left cloud alone

The way I interpret Sephiroth is that he has an ego death once he becomes aware of his origin and he became another vassal, of sorts for Jenova.

Every action and motivation he has since that point is a complete departure from who he was before and all he wants is to fulfill goals that Jenova has, rather than anything he valued before.

pegusus123456 posted...

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think he is obsessed with Cloud in the original game. Cloud is just a convenient pawn because he's close to Aerith and they get access to the Black Materia.

Sephiroth grows more obsessive in subsequent material cuz Cloud murdered him.

Busts Cloud out of Shinra jail.

Leads/follows Cloud and taunts him.

Lets Cloud get the Black Materia when he could easily get it himself.

Has Cloud being him the Black Materia.

Doesn't kill Cloud and Co. after getting the Black Materia.

If he had killed everyone in the crater after he got the Black Materia, he would never have been stopped.

-Crissaegrim- posted...

The way I interpret Sephiroth is that he has an ego death once he becomes aware of his origin and he became another vassal, of sorts for Jenova.

Every action and motivation he has since that point is a complete departure from who he was before and all he wants is to fulfill goals that Jenova has, rather than anything he valued before.

That's not right cause Sephiroth wanted to become a god and rule while Jenova only wanted to feed, she's Lavos mixed with the Thing.

ARTEMlS posted...

It's been a while since I played FF7, but afaik it was completely up to interpretation whether Sephiroth controlled Jenova or if it actually was vice versa, right? That is, in the original game.

No, Sephiroth was always the one in control since the Cetra's battle with Jenova left her braindead, the devs confirmed that while saying it is a interesting theory nonetheless.

My headcanon is that Jenova is a parasitic alien hivemind that is controlled by its strongest willed host. The Jenova we see in game would have been a powerful Cetra who became infected by it, but would eventually become overpowered by Sephiroth.

I think that would keep the power dynamic between the two interesting.

Hojo badman

lorddrakath1522 posted...

That's not right cause Sephiroth wanted to become a god and rule while Jenova only wanted to feed, she's Lavos mixed with the Thing.

Again, I don't remember the specifics of the original, so maybe there's dialogue contradicting this.

But I remember thinking that Sephiroth's plan was just going to destroy Gaia. He'd redirect all the lifestream energy into himself, destroying the planet in the process. Then he'd move on to the next planet.

And that's....exactly what Jenova seems to do. So while subsequent titles and WOG say Sephiroth is the one in charge, I can absolutely see the original game being interpreted as Jenova just letting Sephiroth think he's in charge or that it's just Jenova's natural life cycle and Sephiroth's being duped.

So basically,
Jenova is God. Sephy is Jesus.

Remind me, what happened with Jenova at the end?
Cause Cloud kills Sephiroth, and Aeris dealt with the Meteor, but i don't remember anything about Jenova

ROBBAN posted...

Remind me, what happened with Jenova at the end?
Cause Cloud kills Sephiroth, and Aeris dealt with the Meteor, but i don't remember anything about Jenova

She dies at the hands of Cloud and his team when Cait Sith does Jenova's head in with it's Megaphone attacks.

pegusus123456 posted...

Again, I don't remember the specifics of the original, so maybe there's dialogue contradicting this.

But I remember thinking that Sephiroth's plan was just going to destroy Gaia. He'd redirect all the lifestream energy into himself, destroying the planet in the process. Then he'd move on to the next planet.

And that's....exactly what Jenova seems to do. So while subsequent titles and WOG say Sephiroth is the one in charge, I can absolutely see the original game being interpreted as Jenova just letting Sephiroth think he's in charge or that it's just Jenova's natural life cycle and Sephiroth's being duped.

No, in the og, Sephiroth wants to wound the planet and absorb the lifestream into himself to rule humans, the part of moving to another planet only came up in AC and even there, he was still going to enact his plan of rulling after.

lorddrakath1522 posted...

No, in the og, Sephiroth wants to wound the planet and absorb the lifestream into himself to rule humans, the part of moving to another planet only came up in AC and even there, he was still going to enact his plan of rulling after.

I think that's actually more evidence for the Jenova being in control theory. Sephiroth thinks he's going to rule, but when you absorb the planet's lifestream, the planet's just going to die. I believe Grandpa Disco Ball says that in the original even if we don't get a fancy cutscene for it like we do in Rebirth.

Meteor was effectively going to wipe out all life on Gaia, and the subsequent wound would have allowed Sephiroth to absorb all the lifestream in the planet to rule it as a god.

However, there'd be nothing to rule. The planet would be dead and at some point just crumble away.

So, excluding revelations in subsequent media, Sephiroth would probably travel to other planets and repeat the process for eternity, assuming other planets in the FF7 universe (ignoring the connection with 10) had lifestream.

So he'd basically become what Jenova is.

Too bad Jenova is basically being controlled by Sephiroth the entire game.

I kind of wish we got to see more of her. When you get down to OG ff7, Sephiroth really doesnt do a whole lot. Youre almost always seeing Jenova hallucinations and Jenova-Soldiers mimicking him.

_____Cait posted...

I kind of wish we got to see more of her. When you get down to OG ff7, Sephiroth really doesnt do a whole lot. Youre almost always seeing Jenova hallucinations and Jenova-Soldiers mimicking him.

The Soldiers are just Sephiroth though. He's using them as extensions of his will.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Jenova

From the wiki

Due to the Jenova cells present in his body, the lifestream could not absorb Sephiroth completely. His will persisted and he learned everything about Jenova, the Cetra, and the circle of life, formulating a plan to be reborn as a god and rule the planet. Sephiroth's will overpowered Jenova's and he gained the ability to exert his influence on those infected with the creature's biomass and even turn them into vessels imitating his semblance, thus facilitating a plan to have them deliver the Black Materia to him, which would allow him to cast the ultimate black magic spell: Meteor.

_____Cait posted...

I kind of wish we got to see more of her. When you get down to OG ff7, Sephiroth really doesnt do a whole lot. Youre almost always seeing Jenova hallucinations and Jenova-Soldiers mimicking him.

This is actually something I can't stand about the remakes. Sephiroth shows up every other minute. Like people has said above, he's not really bothering with Cloud that much until he becomes useful.