Discrimination is not okay.
waterdeepchu posted...
Discrimination is not okay.
Neither is forcing people to act against their will. If you don't want discrimination then attack the religion, not the people trying to avoid eternal damnation.
What a load of horse shit. Nowhere does it say christians will be sent to hell for baking a cake.
If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.
Better pray homophobics <3 cake enough to support his business.
Zangulus posted...
What a load of horse shit. Nowhere does it say christians will be sent to hell for baking a cake.
2 Thessalonians 3:10-15
If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
Bible says don't associate with sinners.
Ezekiel 33:7-9
if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.
It also recommends you call out people's sin to get in to Heaven.
They already avoid an easy path to heaven to be considerate, don't be upset they don't outright enable you to sin.
I think if you have a moral objection to an event you shouldn't be forced to participate.
Peterass posted...
I don't care if you're gay or not, but not allowing people to run their own businesses a certain way because of YOUR beliefs is discrimination.
Then all protections should be removed? Right? Because someone will have a belief that you shouldnt be protected for some reason.
It worked so well for the Blacks...
The freedom of religion does not mean youre allowed to force your beliefs on others.
Troll_Police_ posted...
No business should be forced to do business with anyone. Let capitalism sort this shit out.
Because thats worked so well in the past... oh...
Peterass posted...
What protections? Don't over complicate this. A private business can choose who they do or do not do business with for any reason.
Except, you know, when they cant. One would think the litany of bakeries that have been sued, and lost from denying service to gays would have cemented this very basic fact in your mind.
https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/the-right-to-refuse-service-can-a-business-refuse-service-to-someone-because-of-appearance
At the heart of the debate is a system of anti-discrimination laws enacted by federal, state and local governments. The entire United States is covered by the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination by privately owned places of public accommodation on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin. Places of public accommodation include hotels, restaurants, theaters, banks, health clubs and stores. Nonprofit organizations such as churches are generally exempt from the law.
The right of public accommodation is also guaranteed to disabled citizens under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which prohibits discrimination by private businesses based on disability.
The federal law does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, so gays are not a protected group under the federal law. However, about 20 states, including New York and California, have enacted laws that prohibit discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation. In California, you also cant discriminate based on someones unconventional dress.
Sexual orientation isnt a federal mandate, yet. However it will become one with time. And 40% of states already cover it.
Businesses are not a free for all allowed to do whatever they want. Thats exactly what consumer protections are.
Im not over complicating anything. Youre being ignorant is all.
So then, if I got into a gay bakery, and tell them I am having an anti gay party, and I want a cake that has some derogatory names for gay people on it, should they not be allowed to turn my ass away?
2 Thessalonians 3:10-15
If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
Bible says don't associate with sinners.
Ezekiel 33:7-9
if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.
It also recommends you call out people's sin to get in to Heaven.
Matt: 7:1 - "Judge not, that ye be not judged."
Matt: 22:37 - "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
Why are they not following these laws?
Foppe posted...
Why are they not following these laws?
@Foppe
Because thats part of the Old Testament, it was guidelines set for the Israelites in ancient times.
The whole point of The Christ dying on the Cross for the sins of mankind was so that the Israelites/Jews would not have to sacrifice livestock to atone for their sins anymore. The whole thing is like a "out with the old in with the new" mindset".
The people that believed Christ died came to be known as Christians, the rest remained Jews.
I think I would say yes, even if I don't like it. It may be an issue with no good solution. There are problems doing it either way.
He may be a doofus, but one thing Cenk Uygar said that I think I'd agree with is that it depends on the scale of the business. If you're a small independent store, and there are tons of alternatives, so you don't really have any reach or influence, then yes you should be able to discriminate against your customers.
But if it's something like Walmart or some kind of sufficiently large company (who knows what the criteria would be for 'sufficiently large' though), then no, you shouldn't be able to discriminate against your customers.
A Wal-Mart would never do something like that, though.
Mega corporations don't really have principles.
Any business owner should be allowed to refuse business for any reason, given that another business owner will pick up that business unless the government is forbidding the sales of services to groups.
Kyuubi4269 posted...
Zangulus posted...
What a load of horse shit. Nowhere does it say christians will be sent to hell for baking a cake.
2 Thessalonians 3:10-15
If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
Bible says don't associate with sinners.
Ezekiel 33:7-9
if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.
It also recommends you call out people's sin to get in to Heaven.
They already avoid an easy path to heaven to be considerate, don't be upset they don't outright enable you to sin.
d by the way the fake Christians live these days, as already pointed out by mixing fabrics, and with women who are unclean, every single one of them is a sinner. Yet they dont do a damned thing about that.
Its all a load of shit used as a smoke screen. All forgiving god that damns people for baking a cake (for someone magically sinning more than all of their other customers.).
So do these bakeries do a thorough soul check background before baking every single cake?
Huh. Totally makes sense to me.
Zeus posted...
A Wal-Mart would never do something like that, though.
never? you know this how? that's a completely invalid argument.
Zeus posted...
Mega corporations don't really have principles.
What's a 'mega corporation'. Lowes is pretty big, and they, for example, refuse to say 'Merry Christmas', so yes, large companies can have 'principles', it depends who's running them, obviously.
Zeus posted...
Any business owner should be allowed to refuse business for any reason, given that another business owner will pick up that business unless the government is forbidding the sales of services to groups.
In an infinite market, sure, but in case you haven't noticed, there is a finite number of businesses in America. Another business owner won't necessarily pick up that business, because another business owner won't necessarily exist. The consequence is that people are deprived of these services on bases that nobody should be deprived of anything, which is a massive problem when the services in question are necessary ones (obviously, having a wedding cake isn't that necessary, but that's not the only service people can be denied).
And really, is it so hard to demand that business owners not be bigoted assholes?
And really, is it so hard to demand that business owners not be bigoted assholes?
If a need isn't being met, businesses will either spring up to meet it or other businesses -- recognizing that they can get a large amount of profit -- will step in.
In general, I could understand an argument mandating *essential* services, but most essential services -- hospitals, utilities, etc -- are covered by the government anyway which can't discriminate. Likewise, major chains cover the majority of needs in this country so the most important areas are already covered.
Otherwise, the idea that nobody should be "deprived of anything" is fundamentally an issue of entitlement. As it stands, countless people of "deprived of things" due to a myriad of factors including income, availability, etc. So, unless you pass a law mandating that things should be free and businesses have to open in certain areas, there will always be some "deprivation"
Why not ask whether it's really so hard not to be an a****** who forces a business to do something against their will instead of walking around the corner and buying somewhere else?
There's a large amount of profit from being the only bakery in town that will bake cakes for 10% of its population's weddings? In a city with a million people, maybe, but a town of 5000? Good luck with that. Good luck with that even if you're talking about a more everyday service. And that's even without getting into the fact that homosexuality's incidence is probably going to be less than the usual 10% in such a small town (both because smaller towns tend to be more homophobic to start with and because only having ~249 potential romantic partners to pick from isn't exactly conducive to settling down there).
Remember that the total number of businesses in America isn't relevant here. America's a big place, so of course there'll be a huge number of businesses. America's communities, however, are not necessarily big places, and it's communities that people exist in. The fact that there are 146 (not a real number) bakeries that will serve gay people in Manhattan means nothing to a gay couple in Jasper, AK, and as soon as you start discriminating such that gay people (or black people, or Muslims, or anyone that doesn't look Aryan) have to drive 2-3 communities over to get what they want, you are creating a disadvantaged class with that discrimination, and that's no bueno.
Major chains are also businesses, and you started this line of reasoning with "Any business owner." No cherry-picking now. Additionally, most essential services aren't covered by the government in the US. Hospitals are treated as private businesses. Utilities are private businesses. Real estate (including renting) is a private business. Grocery stores are private businesses. Drug stores are private businesses. And in smaller communities, many of those services aren't going to have more than one option available, because there simply isn't enough business to support more than one.
There will, and that's a problem, but that's due to factors beyond anyone's easy control. You can't sell a product to people that can't afford it without yourself being unable to afford staying in business. Depriving people of a service due to voluntary discrimination, however, is very easy to fix: Just stop discriminating against them. This is entirely a voluntary decision on the part of the business owner.
Because it's easier to stop being a bigoted asshole than it is to walk around the corner. Even in cases where there actually is something around the corner (which, as we've established already, is only really true in larger communities). Just don't. It's really that simple.
Because it's easier to stop being a bigoted asshole than it is to walk around the corner.
Zangulus posted...
Kyuubi4269 posted...
Zangulus posted...
What a load of horse shit. Nowhere does it say christians will be sent to hell for baking a cake.
2 Thessalonians 3:10-15
If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
Bible says don't associate with sinners.
Ezekiel 33:7-9
if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.
It also recommends you call out people's sin to get in to Heaven.
They already avoid an easy path to heaven to be considerate, don't be upset they don't outright enable you to sin.
d by the way the fake Christians live these days, as already pointed out by mixing fabrics, and with women who are unclean, every single one of them is a sinner. Yet they dont do a damned thing about that.
Its all a load of shit used as a smoke screen. All forgiving god that damns people for baking a cake (for someone magically sinning more than all of their other customers.).
So do these bakeries do a thorough soul check background before baking every single cake?
Huh. Totally makes sense to me.
That was all done away with when Jesus died on the cross. Read the book of Acts if you can't take my word for it.