What's your opinion on eSports?

I like watching fighting game tournaments, especially Smash Bros. ones (although the Fighting Game Community doesn't consider themselves part of the eSports community for some reason.) I'll probably watch other eSports like Fortnite tourneys eventually.

I enjoy watching some of it, but only professional play. Same with some traditional sports.

I suppose I can respect the idea, but I just don't understand it or the appeal. Although I don't really understand the appeal of most sports. Really, X-Games are the only thing I can get enjoyment out of.

Also, understanding how competitions result in an even playing field is even more confusing let alone how different that is for each game. Really, at the point where gaming becomes competitive to the point where people have an actual investment in it, it ceases to be fun for me.

This also extends to the Speedrun scene. That sort of thing just ruins games for me.

Edit #2: Although, I have utilized speedruns for games that have speedrun challenges baked into them like the Resident Evil games. It's a great way to learn good strategies. I just don't like the exploits and glitches.

They need to stop pretending to be real sports, it makes the whole thing look bad imo

Salrite posted...

I suppose I can respect the idea, but I just don't understand it or the appeal. Although I don't really understand the appeal of most sports. Really, X-Games are the only thing I can get enjoyment out of.

Also, understanding how competitions result in an even playing field is even more confusing let alone how different that is for each game. Really, at the point where gaming becomes competitive to the point where people have an actual investment in it, it ceases to be fun for me.

This also extends to the Speedrun scene. That sort of thing just ruins games for me.

Edit #2: Although, I have utilized speedruns for games that have speedrun challenges baked into them like the Resident Evil games. It's a great way to learn good strategies. I just don't like the exploits and glitches.

That's a good idea on what to do with speedruns!

Muscles posted...

They need to stop pretending to be real sports, it makes the whole thing look bad imo

Honestly I agree. I'd put it in the same realm as chess. Although, I do know people who consider chess a sport.

To me, "Sport" is an athletic competition by definition.

PikachuMaxwell posted...

I like watching fighting game tournaments, especially Smash Bros. ones (although the Fighting Game Community doesn't consider themselves part of the eSports community for some reason.) I

Because Smash players at tournaments can't stop sexually harassing people. It's the weirdest shit in the gaming world, it's isolated only to Smash.

Despite video games being my main hobby for decades, I could never get into watching e-sports. I find a lot of e-sport games are difficult to get into for a casual viewer because you have no clue what is going on half the time.

Muscles posted...

They need to stop pretending to be real sports, it makes the whole thing look bad imo

Agreed. Something can be a competition without being a sport. The whole e-athlete thing just comes off as overcompensating by a bunch of people that got picked last in gym class a lot as kids.

Salrite posted...

Honestly I agree. I'd put it in the same realm as chess. Although, I do know people who consider chess a sport.

To me, "Sport" is an athletic competition by definition.

Chess isn't a sport, football (any variation), basketball, hockey, etc. are sports, not video games, not even sports video games, and I love sports and video games.

rjsilverthorn posted...

Agreed. Something can be a competition without being a sport. The whole e-athlete thing just comes off as overcompensating by a bunch of people that got picked last in gym class a lot as kids.

I love sports and video games, but they are separate things, unless it's a sports video game, which isn't a sport.

Muscles posted...

They need to stop pretending to be real sports, it makes the whole thing look bad imo

This, plus I find the whole thing kind of lame regardless.

Excel is my favorite e-sport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNWPGhzhdMg

Salrite posted...

Honestly I agree. I'd put it in the same realm as chess. Although, I do know people who consider chess a sport.

To me, "Sport" is an athletic competition by definition.

The reason why people want it to be considered a sport is for travel reasons. If there's a competition in a different country, the requirements to get in aren't as much.
There's been a few times that people couldn't get to a tournament just because their visa was denied, and a sports visa would have worked.

I enjoy watching them.

I think some of them are cool, some of them are cringe. Hate what they do to the fanbases though. Can't play a single game of Overwatch or League without someone yapping about how some pro player thinks my pick is F-tier and it's like, yeah, I also have half the APM and accuracy of that player, anyone I pick will be F-tier lol

shadowsword87 posted...

The reason why people want it to be considered a sport is for travel reasons. If there's a competition in a different country, the requirements to get in aren't as much.
There's been a few times that people couldn't get to a tournament just because their visa was denied, and a sports visa would have worked.

Change sports visas to competition visas then, because they aren't sports and it's stupid to pretend they are. If I was in control of giving out sports visas and something sweaty neckbeard came up to me asking for a sports visa for a video game I would deny that shit so quick, I'm not sure how they get away with that already

Muscles posted...

Change sports visas to competition visas then, because they aren't sports and it's stupid to pretend they are. If I was in control of giving out sports visas and something sweaty neckbeard came up to me asking for a sports visa for a video game I would deny that shit so quick, I'm not sure how they get away with that already

At least in Japan, professional athletes (as well as e-sports players) need to apply for an entertainer visa. No such thing as a 'sports visa' here, apparently.

I don't like video games all that much anymore, why would I even consider watching something that I have even less interest in. There's nothing appealing about watching people play video games competitively.

ooger posted...

Excel is my favorite e-sport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNWPGhzhdMg

Heh, that's pretty interesting and could be informative as well!

PikachuMaxwell posted...

Heh, that's pretty interesting and could be informative as well!

It is shockingly fun to watch, tbh.

shadowsword87 posted...

The reason why people want it to be considered a sport is for travel reasons. If there's a competition in a different country, the requirements to get in aren't as much.
There's been a few times that people couldn't get to a tournament just because their visa was denied, and a sports visa would have worked.

The thing is, just because someone wants something, doesn't mean they deserve that thing.

I mean, I'd love to have Diplomatic Immunity, but that doesn't mean we should completely alter the requirements or what words mean just go I can claim to be a foreign diplomat to get out of parking tickets.

Salrite posted...

To me, "Sport" is an athletic competition by definition.

Fortunately, English includes a class of words that, when attached to another word, yield a pairing of words that can mean something different from what the second word on its own would mean. Yay! Adjectives!

The definition of "E-sports" is loosely "sports, but electronic," reflecting that the concept includes the same sort of competition and public spectacle as physical sports, but without the athletic component. It's a perfectly valid term, as much as people like to get hung up on "it's not real sports!"

ooger posted...

Excel is my favorite e-sport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNWPGhzhdMg

As an unabashed Excel nerd, I was unreasonably pleased to discover that a while ago. I haven't watched any of it, mostly because I kind of want to try the problems sets on my own, but I don't really have anyone to compete with because I'm far and away the leading Excel expert in my circles of friends/coworkers.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

The thing is, just because someone wants something, doesn't mean they deserve that thing.

What does "deserve" have to do with anything? Instead, ask why sports visas are a thing in the first place, and consider whether or not that applies to e-sports in the same way:

To facilitate athletes travelling to competitions? Check.

Because competitions are clearly defined and there's third-party oversight to ensure the athlete doesn't overstay their visit, allowing for a more lenient visa? Check.

Because the people making these decisions have fond memories of playing high school sportsball but haven't touched a video game since 1982 and therefore see more value in physical sports than eSports? That's probably a factor, but not an immutable one and not a particularly valid justification either way.

Because the athlete's participation in the competition will generate tourism money and other forms of economic stimulation? That's the debatable one. The economic value of hosting international physical sports competitions is pretty well-established (at least on the visa scale, since if we get into questions of taxpayer-funded stadiums or everything that happens to prepare for the Olympics, it's another story), but by their nature, eSports competitions don't have to be as large to attract international athletes and interest, and only a relatively small portion of that interested audience watches in-person. That means you generally don't get the same level of economic stimulation from an international eSports competition as from an international physical sports competition, and that would affect the evaluation of whether or not the increased risk associated with a more lenient visa outweighs the economic benefit of bringing in somebody who wouldn't qualify for a more stringent one.

Now, obviously, there are larger eSports competitions whose economic value equals or exceeds that of smaller physical sports competitions, so by this logic, those e-athletes should have at least the same visa experience as those physical athletes. The system as it stands now does not allow for that, simply because eSports aren't recognized. Rather than making it a question of "sports/not sports," the law should be assessing the scale and economic value of the competition in question and making the decision based on that. It's a case of the law simply not keeping up with how the broader field of international competitions have evolved and using "sports" as a proxy for that evaluation under the assumption that sports will make the cut and nothing else will.

Irregardless of definition, their fun too watch

eSport events are embarassing, but streaming high level games is neat, I guess. I just don't care much for the skills needed to play a twitch shooter competitively, nor any RTS. All the fanfare around it, all the cost, is so cringe I couldn't imagine wanting to be seen there.

artosis still does brood war casts

Not as bad as real sports.

Kind of cool that it exists, but I don't particularly find any enjoyment in watching it, so I don't really care about it in general.

Speaking of which, in the UK, we only have one gaming TV channel/network (to my knowledge at least), GINX TV. A while back, they made a change to focus on eSports instead of gaming in general, causing me to lose interest, barring one or two non-Esports shows which they still make/made.

Sometimes I'll put a Smash tournament on in the background and casually watch it. I love playing the game and enjoy the high level competition.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

All the fanfare around it, all the cost, is so cringe I couldn't imagine wanting to be seen there.

As far as I'm concerned, that's true of pretty much all public sports events, e- or otherwise.

adjl posted...

As far as I'm concerned, that's true of pretty much all public sports events, e- or otherwise.

Ehh. Sports fans can be annoying in their own way, but I have attended (and would again) various sporting events, in spite of the fact that I'm generally disinterested in sports.

But I wouldn't be caught dead at an eSports event, even if you paid me.

The eSports scene seems to generate a unique flavor of terribly cringe human being that nails-on-chalkboard grates on my soul more than nearly anyone else.

About the only other time I've ever felt that level of cringe was when I went to a "Gaming Guild" meeting in college and left it saying "Holy fuck , those people are literally the biggest nerds I've ever encountered in my entire life. And -I- read comics, play video games, Magic: The Gathering, and tabletop roleplaying games." I have, at least once in my life, worn a trenchcoat and a long scarf and pretended to be The Doctor - and those guys made my sphincter pucker at how socially awkward and obsessive they were. Like, if you imagined every possible negative stereotype about nerds from 1980s and 1990s TV and movies, and somehow fused it all into a single organism, that was them. I am convinced that most of them spent at least 90% of their high school lives stuffed into a locker.

I may point and laugh at the fat sports fan who strips naked and paints himself his team's colors and who thinks he has to wear his lucky socks during the playoffs to help his team win, but I have never encountered the level of cringe from legit sports that "Alpha Nerds" have inspired in me.

adjl posted...

Fortunately, English includes a class of words that, when attached to another word, yield a pairing of words that can mean something different from what the second word on its own would mean. Yay! Adjectives!

The definition of "E-sports" is loosely "sports, but electronic," reflecting that the concept includes the same sort of competition and public spectacle as physical sports, but without the athletic component. It's a perfectly valid term, as much as people like to get hung up on "it's not real sports!"

Name one example that isn't also a made up word for political reasons

Salrite posted...

Name one example that isn't also a made up word for political reasons

Why do they call it "e-mail"? Everyone can see it's not mail. It doesn't even have stamps. It needs to stop pretending to be real mail, it makes the whole thing look bad imo. Something can be correspondence without being "mail." To me, "mail" consists of letters, by definition.

Alternatively, all words are made up, so your request is fundamentally broken right out of the gate. Take your pick.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

The eSports scene seems to generate a unique flavor of terribly cringe human being that nails-on-chalkboard grates on my soul more than nearly anyone else.

Looked at as objectively as any sociological phenomenon can be, that's almost certainly because you've spent your entire life being told that sports geeks are cool and video game geeks are not. You cringe at unabashed nerdhood not because there's anything objectively wrong with it, but because they're openly expressing interests with an enthusiasm you've had beaten out of you by social pressure (and sometimes actual physical violence, as you've alluded to with the locker comment). You've learned to keep your nerdy interests to yourself, or at least to ensure that any expression of those interests is muted, and that means you feel uncomfortable when other people aren't so muted in their expression.

Meanwhile, that kind of passionate expression of an obsessive interest isn't socially discouraged when it comes to sports. That's the only difference. There's nothing intrinsic about memorizing a football player's career stats and highlights that makes it in any way "better" than memorizing Goku's power level progression and fights.

"Cringe" is an emotion you choose to feel. Rather than lashing out at or thinking less of those that evoke it, consider why you're making that choice.

adjl posted...

Cringe" is an emotion you choose to feel. Rather than lashing out at or thinking less of those that evoke it, consider why you're making that choice.

Oh yeah and I'm sure if I insulted you to the point of tears, that sadness would be the emotion you chose to feel, right?

GanglyKhan posted...

Oh yeah and I'm sure if I insulted you to the point of tears, that sadness would be the emotion you chose to feel, right?

Why are you comparing being personally attacked to somebody doing something they enjoy that has no direct impact on you and causes no harm to anyone?

While I dont watch them Id probably be more willing to watch them than regular sports. Basketball and soccer make a little sense as something is happening, but football and baseball will forever confuse me on how it has so many fans. 90 percent of it is just sitting around. People talk about oh but the strategy the athleticism! Gymnastics has better shows of athleticism and is more entertaining to watch. Any number of competitions have better strategy. I would rather watch a live Stratego tournament than a football match.

adjl posted...

Why are you comparing being personally attacked to somebody doing something they enjoy that has no direct impact on you and causes no harm to anyone?

Touche

Salrite posted...

Name one example that isn't also a made up word for political reasons

Splunge.



adjl posted...

Fortunately, English includes a class of words that, when attached to another word, yield a pairing of words that can mean something different from what the second word on its own would mean. Yay! Adjectives!

The definition of "E-sports" is loosely "sports, but electronic,"

Yes, but you're still missing the point. The people who say eSports aren't real sports are explicitly saying that they don't actually meet the requirements to use the word "sport" in the first place, modified or not. So the word is inherently wrong. Modify the wrong descriptor all you want, it's still wrong.

It's like saying that calling chess a "board sport" or a "piece sport" retroactively makes it a sport. Or if I call washing my dishes a "detergent sport" (dSports!) it somehow becomes a valid sport (and if nothing else, at least dishwashing includes a significant physical component!).

If someone called them "eCompetition" you'd have more of a point. That would be much harder to disagree with.



adjl posted...

Looked at as objectively as any sociological phenomenon can be, that's almost certainly because you've spent your entire life being told that sports geeks are cool and video game geeks are not.

Yeah, but that logic kind of falls through because I've never actually believed the first part, and I'm nowhere near self-loathing enough to believe the second part.

I never really knew rabid sports fans during my formative years, and I never really watched sports at all. Meanwhile, most of my geek interests started when I was super-young, and were directly fostered by my parents. In elementary school, being the guy who read comics and who RPed actually made me one of the cooler kids (kids would sneak over from other classrooms during recess and beg to be part of the Marvel Superheroes RPG game I was running). Playing video games was never really the "outcast" thing to do - being the kid with the latest console was usually a ticket to being seen as cool.

When Magic: The Gathering caught on in high school, it was never a thing that people furtively hid because they were afraid of looking like nerds - half the people playing it were "jocks" (kids from the track team, the soccer team, the swim team). And actual "jocks" like you see in the movies (ie, the football team, the basketball team, the baseball team) weren't really seen as cool at all, because no one in my school really gave a shit about athletic success. We sure as fuck weren't "Friday Night Lights" where the quarterback and the head cheerleader were our King and Queen (figuratively or literally, when it came to prom). I probably couldn't have told you who the quarterback and the head cheerleader even were in my school at the time (and I definitely can't remember now).

If anything, I should be the reverse - I should be utterly confused by sports and people who enjoy them, while seeing geek activities as being perfectly acceptable. And to a large extent, I do . If I didn't, I wouldn't be here . Or being here, I wouldn't have spent more than a decade mainly posting in the Geek topics where we literally talked about nothing but geeky pastimes in way too much detail and with way too much passion.

It's not really "enjoying geeky things" that triggered the cringe gland when dealing with the Gaming Guild, it was the sheer social awkwardness of the people in question. The only way I can describe it is by posting this:

https://youtu.be/OcUZ9Yi5sgU?t=29

GanglyKhan posted...

Touche

More than just "touche," you've actually highlighted my point pretty well: While it's not strictly correct to frame it as "choosing to feel" emotions (that's not how emotions work), the blame for feeling a certain way about a passive observation still lies within you. It's distinct from feeling hurt by somebody doing something to hurt you, or feeling happy because somebody's done something to please you. This is a case where the event/action/whatever exists entirely independently of you, and you're forming an opinion on it and feeling an emotion according to that opinion.

"Cringe" is sometimes framed as "second-hand embarrassment," but second-hand embarrassment is a form of empathy: you feel embarrassed for the person as a way of relating to them and sharing in their experience. Whether or not you ever actually interact with the person, this satisfies our innate drive to relate ourselves to other people. "Cringe," on the other hand, is feeling the embarrassment that you think another person should be feeling, ignoring how they actually feel. It's not sharing anything with them, it's just imposing your own expectations and insecurities on them.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Yes, but you're still missing the point. The people who say eSports aren't real sports are explicitly saying that they don't actually meet the requirements to use the word "sport" in the first place, modified or not. So the word is inherently wrong. Modify the wrong descriptor all you want, it's still wrong.

We can revisit my e-mail analogy: "Mail" consists of personally addressed correspondence written or printed on paper and sent via some manner of postal service. "E-mail," in turn, consists of personally addressed correspondence written electronically and sent via the Internet. The decision was made in coining the name that the important part of "mail" is that it's personally addressed correspondence, and not that it's written on paper or delivered via a postal service, so specifying that it's electronic "mail" clarifies that it captures the correspondence style but differs in the medium used.

By comparison, "sports" refers to competitive athletic games/activities. The term "eSports" refers to organized competitive video games. The decision was made in coining the name that the important part of "sports" is competing in a game, not that they're athletic, so specifying that they're electronic "sports" clarifies that they capture the competition but not the athleticism. It also captures some of the finer connotations that people attach to "sports," like being team-based, having formal leagues, organized competitions at the professional level... It's really just the athleticism that's missing, so using "eSports" to communicate the point of "sports, but electronic instead of athletic" makes sense.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

If someone called them "eCompetition" you'd have more of a point. That would be much harder to disagree with.

It would, because that's completely unambiguous and not contentious in the slightest, but it's also five syllables. Ain't nobody got time for five-syllable words in marketing unless they sound really awesome. "eSports" is snappy and effectively communicates the desired intent. It's not remotely surprising that that's the route that the various marketers involved decided to take instead of using something as clunky as "eCompetition" or coining an altogether new term.

We're also getting into the point that came up in the "irregardless" topic, which is that language happens whether you like it or not and the most important thing is being able to communicate clearly. Regardless of anyone's feelings on the term "eSports," everybody criticizing it here knows exactly what it means. That means it's a valid word.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

It's like saying that calling chess a "board sport" or a "piece sport" retroactively makes it a sport.

I don't see any reason why "board sports" couldn't be a thing (though chess is already just classified as a "sport" without any additional qualifiers). It's less likely to become one, since competitive board gaming is already quite well-established and hasn't taken off to the explosive extent that competitive video gaming has, but theoretically there's no difference.

"Dish sports," less so, since doing dishes is not intrinsically competitive, but I'm sure you could come up with some manner of dish-washing competition to turn it into a sport (though in that case it'd probably just be called "sport" because it would be an athletic activity).

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Yeah, but that logic kind of falls through because I've never actually believed the first part, and I'm nowhere near self-loathing enough to believe the second part.

Personal experience or not, those attitudes are widespread enough (particularly in media) that it'd be hard for them not to have influenced you in some capacity.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

It's not really "enjoying geeky things" that triggered the cringe gland when dealing with the Gaming Guild, it was the sheer social awkwardness of the people in question.

That's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. When the prevailing narrative is that you have to be socially inept to be passionate about geeky things, only those that are socially inept enough to be oblivious to that narrative are going to go balls deep on that passion.

adjl posted...

It's really just the athleticism that's missing, so using "eSports" to communicate the point of "sports, but electronic instead of athletic" makes sense.

To be fair skeet shooting is considered a sport and requires less athleticism than professional gaming. Professional gaming while typically done in a sitting position also involves reflexes and coordination. Reaction time tends to start declining around mid 20s so many professional gamers need to retire due to not being able to keep up with the physical performance of those younger than them.