The Last of Us season two, episode 6 topic *spoilers*

the flashback episode

they went back back

my boy, Lalo

boxoto posted...

they went back back

my boy, Lalo

I still need to watch Better Call Saul. I loved Breaking Bad and El Camino. I immediately recognized him and having appeared in Daredevil Born Again.

looks like this is the first episode this season written by Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross (the writers of the game), and the only one directed by Neil Druckmann.

Joel coming off as homophobic?

idk if I'm feeling that

I went in thinking "im gonna love this episode"

and i came out hating it so much. Im not against changes but the changes they did don't work for me.

I kinda wish i hadn't played the game again before watching it

I4NRulez posted...

I went in thinking "im gonna love this episode"

and i came out hating it so much. Im not against changes but the changes they did don't work for me.

I kinda wish i hadn't played the game again before watching it

Interesting. I didn't play the second game but I thought this episode was great.

I enjoyed the added bookend to these sequences of flashbacks. Hurts a little more knowing that Joel's trying to do better than his father, who tried to do better than HIS father, but he's still making mistakes that's pushing Ellie away from him.

I think I got more emotional by the end than I did in the game when that flashback showed up. Though since they got that last one out of the way already I wonder how they're gonna approach the Season 3 finale.

A 10/10 episode.

The one last week was pretty good too.

I played the game too and liked the changes in this episode.

My only complaint is I wish they extended the museum part a little more. It was a pretty funny part when Ellie played with the dinosaur exhibit.

I've noticed something. IIRC this and the last episode were both highly received so far, and they were both mainly written by Neil Druckmann instead of Mazin. It might be controversial for me to say but I think he actually is a good writer if that's the case, lol.

wiki says he didn't write last week's but that he wrote the one for next week (along with Halley and Craig Mazin).

boxoto posted...

wiki says he didn't write last week's but that he wrote the one for next week (along with Halley and Craig Mazin).

Ah. I seem to recall he was the writer for one of the previous episodes.

I just finished the episode, and I liked it, but yea, now I'm wondering how they'll end season three now.

for comparison's sake, here's how the game did the final convo (Eugene died from unrelated reasons before the game happens, so it's about Ellie finding out about the Fireflies earlier in the game - the show combined those two flashbacks).

don't look into any earlier scenes if YouTube recommends them, or read through the comments, since they might spoil things:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdi-7lXHJf4

and this is the scene where Ellie finds out Joel was lying:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=swyWnPLelMc

That episode was rough in the best possible ways.

Also wtf there's only 7 episodes? I thought there were 8.

I thought this episode was amazing but I do think that the final convo worked amazing at the very end of the game. It was a neat bittersweet tie up to the whole thing. Maybe they've got something stronger but I think that scene hit hard and left an super strong final impression in the game.

When Ellie is packing up to move into the garage we see her pack up her record collection and out front is Gheorghe Zamfir- The Lonely Shepherd. The title track is a great pan flute instrumental piece.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/6/6e51ba75.jpg

Here's a live performance of the piece.
https://youtu.be/orL-w2QBiN8?si=nELtQHcuUR-5MkQJ

Good episode but I wish we saw a little of current day. I want to see the aftermath of last week's ending

boxoto posted...

Joel coming off as homophobic?

idk if I'm feeling that

I don't think he was supposed to come off that way.

From joel's perspective, she's speed running teenage rebellion with the drugs/tats, and experimenting with girls would be part of that - he think she's acting up rather than disapproving of her being homosexual.

Also, consider we see joel has terrible gaydar.

Doing that ending scene sooner i expected as assumed a latter flash back would show her coming back to have the final talk like in the game. That type of narrative was hard to swallow for a game, trying that shit here, and waiting to a possible final season to pay it off wouldn't fly.

Have to say I still think ellie was miscast, but i can see what they were going for as Bella and pedro have chemistry, and you can't force that. Problem is...This part of the story requires her to step up, but no moment has happened making me think "That's ellie."

She's also written like shit to have been far too happy during the trip when she should have been descending into revenge fueled madness.

God damn Pedro acting his ass off I'm gunna cry

Yeah, I'm thinking they had to put that final scene there instead of waiting for another season. We have to think in terms of what would work better on a TV adaptation and leaving stuff like that unresolved, for what would assumedly be a "bad ending" to this season, probably wouldn't work.

I just hope they've got something good set up for the S3 finale because yeah, that final flashback scene really worked for the place it was in the game.

the last time I saw Joe Pantoliano, was in the Matrix.

nice episode.

Despised posted...

God damn Pedro acting his ass off I'm gunna cry

I know right?

I often wonder the dark things actors have to tap into from their past to get that emotion out.

Also, watching the scene from the game back TC linked...

3:49 That's a man trying his damdest not to let his little girl see him cry.

I've not watched it yet, but I will say I'm just kinda meh on this whole concept. I feel like the flashbacks should have been sprinkled throughout the season like the game, loading them all at once like this episode seems to be doing is just weird.

pegusus123456 posted...

I've not watched it yet, but I will say I'm just kinda meh on this whole concept. I feel like the flashbacks should have been sprinkled throughout the season like the game, loading them all at once like this episode seems to be doing is just weird.

I imagine it was a proactive decision as they knew the heat they would get killing off joel, so was saved in the back pocket.

Pedro destroyed it. I thought the episode was a bit slow but damn did all the emotions hit hard. In an epic way. The cinematography on this show is mind boggling.

And it's obvious Abby will be the central figure prolly for the cliffwanger and the focus for the last seasons.

That was a bit of a tearjerker.

Tony Dalton and Joe Pantoliano were pleasant surprises.

Kind of sad that the initial flashback scene showed that even as a teen he was lying to protect people. And that lead to his biggest heartache at the end.

I do find it annoying that this had another example of people treating a freshly bitten person as if they're going to explode any second. Season one said it can take up to 24 hours for a person to turn, and it's a relatively slow and telegraphed change. Yet, Joel isn't even willing to be within 10 feet of Eugene, who presumedly was bitten minutes earlier.

Also, why tell Gale that Eugene took himself out when he was clearly executed from behind? His lue would've been exposed almost immediately even without Ellie. So, why not just admit that he did it? No one would hold that against him.

This was the episode I was waiting for. Well done

Man they fucked up that porch scene. Unreal. The literal most important scene in the game and they fuck it up.

Really hoped this season would fix the games flaws but it's making the game seem like a masterpiece of story telling compared to this

Kaldrenthebold posted...

Man they fucked up that porch scene. Unreal. The literal most important scene in the game and they fuck it up.

If this is how game players view that, then I'm glad I didn't play the game.

Heineken14 posted...

If this is how game players view that, then I'm glad I didn't play the game.

I didn't even much care for the story in the game and was hoping the show would fix the errors they made. But no, this season has been nothing but hand holdy non subtle expository nonsense. That entire porch scene being changed for her entire reason for hating Joel really sours everything. And considering the timing of putting it here really hurts the overall ending. I'm sure they are going to change it, but god damn did that make me salty. A lot of this season has.

Be glad you didn't play it then, because you would have just been disappointed. It is a lot more realistic, quiet, subtle and completely different story wise than this.

KogaSteelfang posted...

I do find it annoying that this had another example of people treating a freshly bitten person as if they're going to explode any second. Season one said it can take up to 24 hours for a person to turn, and it's a relatively slow and telegraphed change. Yet, Joel isn't even willing to be within 10 feet of Eugene, who presumedly was bitten minutes earlier.

There was a chart in season 1, it lists different times depending on the location. Presumably it's the amount of time it takes to spread to the brain.
Torso/Arm/Shoulder/Hand was 2-8 hours.
The others were Head/Face/Neck at 5-15 minutes, and Leg/Foot at 12-24 hours.

So it's not taking 24 hours unless you're like bit in the toe or something. But I imagine Eugene's torso wound would take around 5 hours.
More importantly who knows what stupid crap someone might do once they realize they're dying. He even tried to pull a gun on Joel after all.

Relm_Arrowny_87 posted...

There was a chart in season 1, it lists different times depending on the location. Presumably it's the amount of time it takes to spread to the brain.
Torso/Arm/Shoulder/Hand was 2-8 hours.
The others were Head/Face/Neck at 5-15 minutes, and Leg/Foot at 12-24 hours.

So it's not taking 24 hours unless you're like bit in the toe or something. But I imagine Eugene's torso wound would take around 5 hours.
More importantly who knows what stupid crap someone might do once they realize they're dying. He even tried to pull a gun on Joel after all.

Good point, I forgot it listed different times for different bites. But it's not just a switch that flips. It's a gradual takeover that essentially shuts the person down first before rebooting their body as a cordyceps.

But it was both Joel with Eugene, and Dina with Ellie acting as if a bitten person will just turn immediately. And that's never been shown or hinted at in either the game or the show.

And yeah, Eugene pulled a gun on them. Because they both had their guns on him, acting as if they were absolutely terrified of him. I swear, these characters are more scared of a cognitive, friendly, and cooperative freshly bitten person than they are of actively hostile enemies and the actual dangerous ones. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I wonder if Joels speech about doing a little better leads to Ellie deciding to stay with Dina and the baby and not going to Santa Barbara. If it ends with her in the bed with them staring at the ceiling it would be awesome.

KogaSteelfang posted...

But it was both Joel with Eugene, and Dina with Ellie acting as if a bitten person will just turn immediately. And that's never been shown or hinted at in either the game or the show.

Those and then the dude handing over his gun after the Jackson attack it's just a known thing to do to immediately put someone down. I'd assume it makes it harder to bring yourself to do it the longer someone is around and so it's just like an unwritten rule everyone goes by.

Heineken14 posted...

Those and then the dude handing over his gun after the Jackson attack it's just a known thing to do to immediately put someone down. I'd assume it makes it harder to bring yourself to do it the longer someone is around and so it's just like an unwritten rule everyone goes by.

Yeah, and I get that. But it's not because they're actively a threat at that moment. It's because they're going to be. The guy shooting the one in the roof didn't do it out of fear, he did it out of mercy and because the guy wanted it.

Look back at season one, when Joel and Tess learned Ellie had a bite. They were concerned, and kept an eye on her. They weren't scared. They had everything they needed to end it if it came to that. But they weren't afraid.

Then twice this season, we see experienced people, who are not afraid of gunfights or fully infected, both scared witless of someone bitten like 1 minute earlier.

Huge pop for Lalo.

I found it hard to take that opening scene seriously. It's not the show's fault, I just immediately imagined the punchline being his dad giving that heartfelt speech and then going, "So anyway, I'm gonna go beat Tommy."

I didn't mind it too much, but I like how it established Joel was always a protector, who was willing to lie to "save others".

I also like how it kind of came back to hurt him when Ellie revealed he lied, making him realize his kind of help could hurt the people he was trying for.

Alright, I've not been one to complain about the show having more exposition. I think a lot of what people are complaining about was necessary to some extent because you're changing the medium.

But Joel directly asking what's up with the moths and directly asking the therapist what the symbolism was? Holy shit, dude, come on.

boxoto posted...

Joel coming off as homophobic?

idk if I'm feeling that

he was raised by a cop in Texas in the 70s/80s, it's not too much of a stretch. But it seemed like he changed his opinion before the end.

boxoto posted...

for comparison's sake, here's how the game did the final convo (Eugene died from unrelated reasons before the game happens, so it's about Ellie finding out about the Fireflies earlier in the game - the show combined those two flashbacks).

don't look into any earlier scenes if YouTube recommends them, or read through the comments, since they might spoil things:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdi-7lXHJf4

and this is the scene where Ellie finds out Joel was lying:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=swyWnPLelMc

I haven't played the games, but these scenes feel a lot less impactful than the porch scene in the show. Especially the first one.

up until this episode I had been under the impression that the last thing she said to him was the line in the church, and that made his death much worse.

Big pop for Ralph Cifaretto.

thronedfire2 posted...

he was raised by a cop in Texas in the 70s/80s, it's not too much of a stretch. But it seemed like he changed his opinion before the end.

I haven't played the games, but these scenes feel a lot less impactful than the porch scene in the show. Especially the first one.

up until this episode I had been under the impression that the last thing she said to him was the line in the church, and that made his death much worse.

I liked the scene, but I disagree.

but to be fair, having more context might help.

I won't say anything about the first scene since its placement is different than in the game and saying more would spoil you, but for the second scene, we see Ellie having doubts over what Joel told her at the end of the first game, and that doubt is built up throughout various scenes throughout.

so she goes back to the hospital, gets proof about Joel lying and what he tells her is worse than she could have imagined, and it breaks her. and this is about a year or two before Joel's killed, which leads to them barely speaking until the dance confrontation and the final porch scene.

in the show after being confronted about the lie, and Joel telling her the truth, it seems like she processes it way too quickly. I'm not saying it's not possible for things to work out that way, but it felt kind of unsatisfying at parts, for me.

Okay, yeah, I did not like the change this episode made. At fucking all.

Acting wise? Bella and Pedro fucking destroyed that scene. Acted their goddamn asses off. Pedro especially outdid Troy in that scene and that's no small feat.

The framing around it? I fucking hate it. I like the Eugene stuff. I can even agree with the logic of that being the impetus for Ellie confronting Joel about the Fireflies because Ellie sneaking out and making her way back to the hospital alone would maybe be a bit much for a show. Hell, it's maybe a bit much for the game.

But the timing of it. This is the big thing from the first season/game. Helping to make that cure is a huge part of her motivation, she's not just going along with it. As she said in this episode, she wants her life to matter. As she said in the last season, she wants all the horrible shit they went through to get there to matter.

So that's why she's pissed at Joel. She is infuriated at him. She is disgusted by him. I think it's like a full year before she ever gets to a place where she can have that porch conversation. It had weight. It did not deserve to be some quick aside in an argument that appears to be more about Eugene than it does Ellie. Fucking Gail forgave Joel for it faster than Ellie did.

And yeah, I get that Ellie obviously knew what happened after Eugene, but the show deserved to have that confrontation be its own scene. There was no reason we couldn't have had a scene right after Eugene's death where they meet up at their house and have more-or-less the confrontation we get from the game. Combining both that confrontation and their reconciliation is just stupid.

KogaSteelfang posted...

I do find it annoying that this had another example of people treating a freshly bitten person as if they're going to explode any second. Season one said it can take up to 24 hours for a person to turn, and it's a relatively slow and telegraphed change. Yet, Joel isn't even willing to be within 10 feet of Eugene, who presumedly was bitten minutes earlier.

Joel is pretty clearly just being overprotective. If it had been just him? I think he'd have at least considered the idea, though I think he'd have done the same thing. But with Ellie? Nah. No fucking chance.

I will say this is consistent with Joel though. When he finds out Tess was bitten in the first season, he backs up when she comes towards him. And really, I think it makes sense for anyone who lived through this. You get enough screaming mushroom monsters coming at you, you're going to want to put the next one down quickly even if it is your friend.

Nintendo-34 posted...

Have to say I still think ellie was miscast, but i can see what they were going for as Bella and pedro have chemistry, and you can't force that. Problem is...This part of the story requires her to step up, but no moment has happened making me think "That's ellie."

She's also written like shit to have been far too happy during the trip when she should have been descending into revenge fueled madness.

See, I think Bella is fine. She's maybe a bit too young-looking for the part, but the acting is not an issue. When you get a scene like her telling Abby's crew that she's going to fucking kill them or the Nora scene, she's great.

I think the issue is purely writing and direction. For whatever reason, they decided to tone Ellie down. So much of this trip to Seattle was a romantic comedy rather than a woman's bloodthirsty revenge trip.

pegusus123456 posted...

Joel is pretty clearly just being overprotective. If it had been just him? I think he'd have at least considered the idea, though I think he'd have done the same thing.

I don't have any issue with what he did. But he also has less than 0 reason to be overprotective of Ellie over a fully cognitive, in control, freshly bitten human. Even after she was gone for the horses, Joel kept him 10 feet away, facing away from him, at gunpoint. He was not even a threat to a regular person at that point, even less of one to Ellie. It really just portrayed both him and Dina as unreasonably afraid in those situations imo.

Damn this one was a tear jerker.

KogaSteelfang posted...

It really just portrayed both him and Dina as unreasonably afraid in those situations imo.

Eh, like I said, it's a lot different for us the audience compared to people who've lived most/all of their lives under the threat of a screaming Toad trying to rip your throat out.

Nintendo-34 posted...

I don't think he was supposed to come off that way.

From joel's perspective, she's speed running teenage rebellion with the drugs/tats, and experimenting with girls would be part of that - he think she's acting up rather than disapproving of her being homosexual.

Also, consider we see joel has terrible gaydar.

That's the way I took it also. Besides, even if they were going for that he was homophobic at one time, he eventually changed and punched a dude out for calling his daughter and her crush a homophobic slur.