Lurker > bng_mmmk

Yeah I don't have LK yet so I didn't comment on that. I assumed it was sort of a "I'm putting LK in every deck" sorta thing.

Also you might even consider finding a place for infest in that deck.

Also also, I think the deck goes a little high on the curve without much way to really deal with later game minions. Bonemare is great but you'll end up using it to just have a 5/5 or 6/6 a lot of the time. Explosive shot or hunter's mark might be an option if that becomes an issue. I feel like you'll frequently end up getting close and then losing to a big taunt or a board clear.
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turbopuns

Camden posted...

A few people on here seem to play Hunter a lot, what should my last two cards be in this list?

I think you'll want explosive trap.

Also, in 5 tundra rhino is great with your deathrattle tokens. Corpse Widow is fine too. But I think if all you do is swap in corpse widow for snipe you'll get out tempo'd a lot.

From personal experience Rat pack rarely felt good unless I buffed it in my hand. Hidden cache is ok.
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turbopuns

Not talking about OS specifically here, but in general I don't think that way we compared Lich King vs Obsidian Statue with nothing else on board is a fair way to judge their relative values.

Like, for two neutral minions, sure. You can imagine them facing off on an empty board and judge them in a vacuum like that. But class minions are built into a set of spells, quite deliberately. Isn't it necessary to consider the class toolkit to properly evaluate them?

(Also if you're answering your opponent's lich king with a 9 mana turn, that means you were already behind in the game and thus the example makes OS look worse than it is since what you're actually saying is it isn't a great comeback card)
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turbopuns

VeryInsane posted...

deathrattle is much weaker than battlecry since you can control it

Eternal Servitude, the 6 mana 5/5 spell, (and barnes) all negate battlecries, not deathrattles.

And that's a fair point considering OS is a priest minion and not a neutral minion.
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turbopuns

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

reducing the range of things the deathrattle can kill makes it weaker

That was my intention, yes.

Anyway, I'm feeling better now so consider that /rant. I'll go back to crying every time I see it in my bad deck that has no place in the meta.
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turbopuns

Ok how about this

leave it at 4/8 but make the deathrattle destroy an enemy minion with 8 or less attack
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turbopuns

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

bng_mmmk posted...

"Do nothing" except heal you for 6 and leave the lich king with 2 health, AND prevent the 8 damage from hitting your face or other minions.

And potentially kill another minion of theirs.

That's far from "nothing".

Do you see how you had to add more qualifiers to the situation to make it better aside from both Statue and Lich King on an empty board? That's what's making it worse! Plus leaving Lich King at 2 health is not great.

I mean you're basically saying it's only good if it 1-for-1s the Lich King?

And do we need to name all the ways you can do 2 damage?
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turbopuns

But you're right about priest being the bigger issue. But it's a lot easier to focus on one card than say "these 4 priest cards need to be reworked in all these ways" which gets a lot more complicated.
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turbopuns

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Yes, that's way worse. Dies and does nothing in way more situations, including just being attacked by The Lich King, probably THE most popular threat right now.

Your main problem isn't even with the card, it's with EZ Priest's ability to cheat big things into play repeatedly. The other problem is you thinking of it of an anti-aggro tool, when it's really anti-everything, and one of the few Priest cards that is unconditionally good.

"Do nothing" except heal you for 6 and leave the lich king with 2 health, AND prevent the 8 damage from hitting your face or other minions.

And potentially kill another minion of theirs.

That's far from "nothing".

Plus with it at 9 you could still combo it with pint-sized to make it do the same thing to a lot more minions.

(not to mention priest has plenty of ways to deal with lich king)

And it was Dowolf who suggested it was anti-aggro. I was responding to that.
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turbopuns

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Why the hell can't Obsidian Statue just be a good card? I don't want my fucking 9+ cost cards to be situationally good against some decks. I want them to just be good!

You wouldn't consider it good if it was 6/8 and the deathrattle only killed minions with attack less than its attack?
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turbopuns

And it's not even about whether Skulking Geist is good, either. I was just listing examples of utility minions. The point was that it shouldn't be insta-gibbing minions with bodies of that size.

bng_mmmk posted...

Or even just "destroy a random enemy minion with less attack than this minion"

This would make it still a very strong anti-aggro card without nerfing it so badly it wouldn't see play.

And if you think that would prevent it from seeing play, then maybe the card is good in too many scenarios.

edit: I could even see this being fine if you buffed its attack to 5 or 6 at the same time.
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turbopuns

dowolf posted...

I mean...

Curator's main purpose is to draw cards and soak up damage. It still happily does that.
Black Knight is a six-mana card; if it's 1-for-1'ing a 9-mana card, that's good for you.
Skulking Geist is a bad card. Primordial Drake is essentially another 1-for-1 too;
that's generally not a card you use to protect the rest of your board.

It's not about OS killing Black Knight. It's about OS killing the gigantic minion I was about to smash my opponent's face with whenever I use Black Knight to clear the taunt.

See, therein lies the point. The root of the issue is that in my mind, if a card is supposed to be anti-aggro, it shouldn't also 1-for-1 the largest minion conceivable.

But even more central to the issue, I think, again, isn't the card itself, but the priest's ability to summon it over and over and over before turn 9 even comes around.



Like I said a while ago, I'm sure even if we had this conversation for another week, in the end you guys would just be saying "stop trying to play control hunter" and that's fine. Still going to speak my mind, though.
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turbopuns

Also, notice how you referred to it as an "anit-aggro card"

I agree that it seems to be designed that way.

But, ironically, due to the tools available in priest, it's actually quite effective as anti-control card against decks that use minions for utility. (black knight/skulking geist/primordial drake/curator/etc.)
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turbopuns

dowolf posted...

bng_mmmk posted...

dowolf posted...

tbh if I'm nerfing Obsidian Statue, I'm dropping it to 3/8.

That route doesn't really speak to me, but it would need to be 2 attack imo if that's what you're doing.

It's laughable at 2 attack; you'd just swarm over it.

I mean, if you want to kill the card, go nuts. But a nine-mana anti-aggro tool should probably put the aggro player on his back foot.

You're still healing every time it gets hit and killing a minion when it dies.

I haven't played any aggro decks though so I don't have enough context.
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turbopuns

At the end of the day, the answer to my woes is probably as simple as my style of play and my preferred class don't mesh and I'm just trying to force the issue, leading me to all these specific complaints that don't resonate with anyone else.

But I recognize that I'm stubborn, so it's fine.
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turbopuns

Played a couple games on lunch and I had one of the worst feeling losses in recent memory.

Playing against quest mage, deep into the game, and I didn't have the right numbers to put him at exactly 1. Had to leave him at 2.

He drew his last card, played the quest, and on his extra turn took 1 fatigue and killed me with 1 health. Would've been dead if I could have left him at 1.
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turbopuns

dowolf posted...

tbh if I'm nerfing Obsidian Statue, I'm dropping it to 3/8.

That route doesn't really speak to me, but it would need to be 2 attack imo if that's what you're doing.
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turbopuns

The fact that more powerful cards exist changes nothing. My point was never that it is the most powerful card.

It's troll level varies based on the type of deck you're using.

Like an aggro deck summons a ton of small minions. Not so bad when one dies. Big whoop.

But against a deck type with fewer, more important minions, obsidian statue #4 is stupid.
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turbopuns

How about if obsidian statue did a shadow word pain with a random target instead of a deadly shot? I wouldn't despise it as much then but it would still be useful.

Or even just "destroy a random enemy minion with less attack than this minion"
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turbopuns

On a separate note, I think Free From Amber should cost 9 and Shadow Visions should cost 3. Or at least one of those two changes.
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turbopuns

VeryInsane posted...

It's probably the weakest card you can res unless you're up against aggro

I mean you're right.

It's the worst card that costs 9+ which you can easily summon 3-4 times by turn 7.
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turbopuns

Obsidian statue would be a good card without the deathrattle, tbh.
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turbopuns

dowolf posted...

his only spell was deadly shot

classic millhouse
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turbopuns

oh yeah, the other thing I learned the hard way (this one is more of me being a dummy)

don't try to stitched tracker one of the princes >___>
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turbopuns

that said, 13/13 stealth for 10 on turn 10.

suck on that, jade druid
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turbopuns

something I just figured out the hard way because I didn't think it through first

if you get a stealth hydra from build-a-beast, and they hit it with AoE, it will break the stealth, since taking damage causes it to deal damage to you.

I totally understand the mechanic, but it was something that I didn't anticipate the first time because I wasn't used to thinking of it in those terms
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turbopuns

maybe people just take brawl less seriously, thus they're playing it while doing something else and don't care about roping you

I'm totally not guilty of this
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turbopuns

has hearthstone become the total opposite of WoW such that hunter actually takes the most skill?
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turbopuns

dowolf posted...

MariaTaylor posted...

rogue is the most skill intensive class so that makes sense. mage is the least skill intensive class so that also makes less sense, yeah. one thing I will say about playing druid is that I feel like it becomes less of a problem when I go second as compared to some other classes. not sure how accurate this is but it's the "feeling" I get when playing the class. I'll definitely be picking Druid again in the future if offered them.

Nah, warrior's the least skill-intensive class. Just press escape and then click the big red button. Easy peasy.

I felt like hunter suffered (at least, personally) due to the prevalence of taunts (gorram tar creeper). It might be doing better now? I dunno.

The ideal opener in my latest attempt at control hunter is venomstrike trap + snail (preferably going second)
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turbopuns

dowolf posted...

the 3-mana 4/4 that freezes your own board. Confirmation came from Iksar in Adwcta's thread on Reddit.

I drafted this card last night.

Also Hafu faced it on stream and was like "wait wtf, how have I never seen this card and it's a common?"

I think they fixed it.
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turbopuns

dowolf posted...

i'm just more confused as to the Sindragosa, since we have confirmation Blizzard screwed up and didn't put it in the Arena.

can someone point me to this
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turbopuns

dowolf posted...

It would be more accurate to say that they design an algorithm that constructs possible gamestates and determines what cards would be valuable and when, which is fueled by their understanding of the game.

In other words, it uses math and assumes perfect play from you and average play from your opponent.

That's interesting.

I now want there to be values based on number of wins.

"This card is GREAT if you're playing people who suck. But once you get to 8 wins this card is not nearly as effective."
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turbopuns

I probably phrased that poorly.

By "average" outcome, I meant if the majority of players are using a card in a certain way, but lightforge decides the majority are wrong, then they're going to rate the card based on what they perceive as right, regardless of what the massive amount of recorded games has to say about the card.
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turbopuns

Isn't the bold part of that quote saying that Lightforge doesn't just go strictly based on the "average" outcome?

They determine for themselves what is good or what is bad and made an algorithm to assign a value to each card based on their own evaluations.
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turbopuns

hmm...maybe he played kabal courier into free from amber, or something?
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turbopuns

bng_mmmk posted...

dowolf posted...

i'm just more confused as to the Sindragosa, since we have confirmation Blizzard screwed up and didn't put it in the Arena.

wait what

I mean I have the replay on my computer at home. uhh..I don't think he played anything else that would have put a random legendary into his hand but I'll have to double check...
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turbopuns

dowolf posted...

i'm just more confused as to the Sindragosa, since we have confirmation Blizzard screwed up and didn't put it in the Arena.

wait what
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turbopuns

Man speaking of Arena legendaries.

Last night I mind controlled Sindragosa. Next turn he played Antonidas and got two fireballs in hand. Luckily, I drew shadow word death and removed it. A few turns later when the board had evened out, he played a second Antonidas.

Wtf.

I'm just realizing it was probably from the Sindragosa thing. Do those say "created by frozen champion" or something similar?
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turbopuns

Next time dopplegangsters evolve was used against me it was slightly better.

Instead of 8/8, 6/6, 6/6, he got 5/5, 4/5 taunt, 4/7 spell power

Gonna keep a personal tally of these. Ya know, for science.
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turbopuns

Yeah rexxar is crazy in arena.

5 armor + 2dmg to board for 6

play an 8 mana beast every turn (sorta)
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turbopuns

but did you win with velen?
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turbopuns

I just got triple Keleseth'd by a rogue with shadowcaster and holy fuck

losing to 4/5 fire fly D:
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turbopuns

There were two turns in a row near the end of my last game where I just played Stitched Tracker 3 times. XD
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turbopuns

As a hunter, I just went to fatigue against a priest and won.

That was crazy. DK Anduin was probably in his last 5 cards, but we'll just ignore that point.
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turbopuns

wowowowowow

I got my karma back. I got a warlock to 5, he played that demon that you discard a card when it takes damage, then played treachery to give it to me, dropped the spellpower 1/1 and played defile for four.

I had five cards. Gladiator's Longbow was the one I ended up with. The only card that would win the game next turn.
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turbopuns

Man, I was absolutely destroying a shaman. Badly. Out valued him so much I was actually laughing out loud.

Then he plays dopplegangsters + evolve on 6 and gets 8/8, 6/6, 6/6 w/ add a random demon to your hand at the end of your turn.

Yeah, that's a comeback mechanic alright! Went from being put to shame to nearly instantly winning when I was a mile ahead.
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turbopuns

Like I get that it isn't straight up 3x value since battle cries and stuff like that don't work. But for comparison, what other combos are out there that compare in terms of value per mana and also consider the number of cards needed?
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turbopuns

VeryInsane posted...

Eh, Shaman has tools outside of Dopplegangster and Evolve. The Jade Package (Claws and Lightning) is just so strong

That...also misses the point though. I'm not saying the meta is broken because of it or that it's shaman's best tool. Just that to me it seems like way higher value per mana ratio than should be possible for such a simple two card play.
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turbopuns

dowolf posted...

it's funny because it took until halfway through the expansion after those cards were released for them to see any real results.

They work as a restocking tool, as a way to get back into the game when behind. They're fine, really.

A restocking tool, sure? But like, doesn't that just ignore the fact they also can be coined out on turn 5?
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turbopuns

VeryInsane posted...

Dopplegangster Evolve

Can I just take a moment to say this is beyond dumb? I wasn't around for Un'Goro or even most of Kara and I'm just getting around to this. Why is it a good idea to let someone summon three six drops for six mana?
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turbopuns