Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic: BONESTORM!

(+) Yeah! (+)

GANON1025 posted...

Eh, I don't think I'm actually bad. Just a mix of luck and probably silly/bad plays here and there. Admittedly my decks aren't made to be stone cold killers, I mean I still have Yogg Saron in all my mage decks.

the decks you said you like using all have fairly high skill caps and they are all expensive decks that are difficult to refine and have multiple places where you can make different tech choices. so yeah player skill is going to have a huge impact on your win rate from the ground up. what cards you choose to cut vs include, knowing which cards to mulligan in every match, knowing when to hold your cards and when you need to push tempo early on, etc. etc.

it's just going to take some practice to learn how to make the best possible plays every turn. that's how you maximize your win rate. and then you need to either get good at adjusting your list based on your own experiences or just wait for a net deck to come out that you can copy and follow what other players are saying is the most optimal. it's almost a guarantee that there are probably some cards on your current list that should be swapped out for others. and I don't say that as a knock against you but more just because of how difficult it is to build an optimized priest for example and how many different choices you can make at each point of the curve... or even the shape of the curve itself.
---

your babyrage is not research
---

No, that's fair. I'll definitely post my priest deck when I can, that's probably the one that can use the most improvements. And I may as well try that Hunter deck anyway, no reason not to give it a go.
---

b
a
b
y
r
a
g
e
---

http://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/decks/xixos-frozen-throne-shadowreaper-kazakus-highlander-priest/

supposedly the best kazakus priest right now
---

Man, I was absolutely destroying a shaman. Badly. Out valued him so much I was actually laughing out loud.

Then he plays dopplegangsters + evolve on 6 and gets 8/8, 6/6, 6/6 w/ add a random demon to your hand at the end of your turn.

Yeah, that's a comeback mechanic alright! Went from being put to shame to nearly instantly winning when I was a mile ahead.
---

MariaTaylor posted...

http://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/decks/xixos-frozen-throne-shadowreaper-kazakus-highlander-priest/

supposedly the best kazakus priest right now

Arfus is a pretty hype inclusion, but I'm not really convinced a random DK card is worth the card slot considering it's ALWAYS Army of the Damned.
---

wowowowowow

I got my karma back. I got a warlock to 5, he played that demon that you discard a card when it takes damage, then played treachery to give it to me, dropped the spellpower 1/1 and played defile for four.

I had five cards. Gladiator's Longbow was the one I ended up with. The only card that would win the game next turn.
---

MariaTaylor posted...

http://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/decks/xixos-frozen-throne-shadowreaper-kazakus-highlander-priest/

supposedly the best kazakus priest right now

I tried this version for a little bit. It's solid, but incredibly greedy.

If you are facing a more aggressive meta something like this may be better? (Btw Puns this is what I meant about the deck being flexible)

http://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/decks/monsantos-kft-kazakus-reaper-highlander-priest-1-legend-august-2017/

Also, fun fact: I think the best kind of Druid might not even be Jades, but the Token Midrange build that runs Strongshell
---

VeryInsane posted...

If you are facing a more aggressive meta something like this may be better?

my goodness

have these words ever been uttered before
---

As a hunter, I just went to fatigue against a priest and won.

That was crazy. DK Anduin was probably in his last 5 cards, but we'll just ignore that point.
---

MariaTaylor posted...

hmm... I was messing around with an evolve shaman right after I pulled the thrall deathseer card but it ended up being too expensive to get the cards I was missing so I scrapped it. the fundamentals I'd say are pretty straightforward though. you want to put in Call In The Finishers, Saronite Chain Gang, and Dopplegangster. Either one of these cards can be played along with the DK card to instantly create a board for yourself. and they can all individually be combo'd with the Evolve card itself to gain some tempo early on.

my theory with an evolve deck is that you generally want to cut overstatted Overload minions. even though this is the one thing Shaman tends to do well they are actually bad for this type of deck because you're paying the overload cost on the following turn and you generally don't want to evolve something that is overstatted and transform it into something that will probably have lower stats. I remember using lightning bolt, mana tide totem, and spirit claws as well in my deck. no idea how well the experts line up with me on this stuff. I've never been much of a Shaman player myself.

best thing about the DK card is the ability to make favorable trades and then evolve your wounded minions in order to full heal them and upgrade them to a new minion of the next mana cost. once you get your hero power going and seize control of the board it plays a lot like the theoretical board control priest would.

Call in the finishers isn't a good card here -- 9 mana for four 3-drops isn't good. The Chain Gangs is all right, but I'm not sold on it. I'd recommend this list, here: https://disguisedtoast.com/decklists/2975-rank-18-legend-evolve-jade-shaman
KokoroAkechi posted...

I feel like in constructed things are pretty balanced. Except for Jade, which is dumb. Like the level of rng I think has gone down overall

But in arena things have gotten worse every set since TGT.

Jade Druid's prolly like the 3rd worst Druid deck, though yeah they fucked up Arena.UltimaterializerX posted...

Wasn't talking about personal experience: https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/ask-an-engineer/can-a-computer-generate-a-truly-random-number/

MIT engineers know far more about computer programing than anyone on Board 8 does, and they agree that computers cannot properly generate randomness.

First of all: *slap*, for multiple reasons.

Second of all, while they cannot generate a true random number, neither can any other method, bar perhaps ones involving quantum mechanics. Physically shuffling your deck is not truly random, which is why knowing how to shuffle properly is an actual (and important!) skill in physical card games. The RNG used by Blizzard is so sufficiently random that it is statistically indistinguishable from a truly random sequence, which means the fact that it's technically deterministic doesn't remotely matter.
---

There were two turns in a row near the end of my last game where I just played Stitched Tracker 3 times. XD
---

I just got triple Keleseth'd by a rogue with shadowcaster and holy fuck

losing to 4/5 fire fly D:
---

Since I got Velan in my welcome pack, I decided to make a new shadowform priest deck.

It's currently 1-0 I should just end it now.
---

but did you win with velen?
---

Hit rank 10. Mostly because i ran up against a bunch of Paladins... which basically are food to priest.

Also had a warlock who conceded to me before the game started. That was nice.
---

dowolf posted...

Call in the finishers isn't a good card here -- 9 mana for four 3-drops isn't good. The Chain Gangs is all right, but I'm not sold on it.

ah, okay. as I mentioned I'm not really a Shaman player so I just offered advice off of the deck I cobbled together with the few cards I had available.

bng_mmmk posted...

I just got triple Keleseth'd by a rogue with shadowcaster

this sounds hilarious
---

http://www.heartharena.com/first-picks-synergy-cards

so death knight jaina is offered as one of the synergy based cards you'll be offered

only other class that gets their DK offered in the synergy pool is warlock

sigh

I can't even be sarcastic anymore

this shit is just too ridiculous

mage bias in arena is just out of control
---

voraxx can be offered to classes that don't even have the ability to buff minions

kazakus is also the only gang leader offered

I guess aya doesn't have synergy with anything

like, I dunno, maybe, um, jades?
---

I got 3 mana Prince

Probably the one I like least but I guess it's not impossible to fit him in Druid

Speaking of, I should get Malf next but Garrosh seems super fun
---

MariaTaylor posted...

http://www.heartharena.com/first-picks-synergy-cards

so death knight jaina is offered as one of the synergy based cards you'll be offered

only other class that gets their DK offered in the synergy pool is warlock

sigh

I can't even be sarcastic anymore

this shit is just too ridiculous

mage bias in arena is just out of control

Jaina isn't even that good in arena, tbh. The real winner is Paladin, who gets Rallying Blade.
---

dowolf posted...

Jaina isn't even that good in arena, tbh.

You are absolutely out of your mind.

Relative to Kazakus, Deathwing or Medivh, which Jaina is directly decreasing your odds of getting? Or relative to Pyros, Antonidas and Sindragosa, who aren't counted as synergy cards?

And GG's tier list agrees with me, so I'm thinking I'm on the right track.
---

Rexxar has to be the best one in Arena right

Feels like building beasts has lots of value there
---

Agree that for arena purposes Jaina isn't that good. Off a discover she is good, in your deck there's a lot of other cards I'd rather see

Then again I've been complete trash this arena expansion averaging under 3 wins a run so the hell do I know.

Priest seems like one of those decks that's fun to play but terrible to play against. Just too RNG heavy. Not fun to play against a deck that makes it impossible to play around.
---

you are absolutely high. all of the death knight cards are good in arena. they instantly give you armor, some kind of value, and then generate infinite value for the rest of the game. the worst thing about the mage synergy pool here is that all of their synergy cards are at least good or better. so in their first two cards, which are guaranteed to come from the synergy pool, they have higher odds of drawing a good card than ANY OTHER CLASS. the fact that they also get access to multiple high tier legendaries (when you're additionally most likely to draft a legendary in your first two picks) just pushes it over the top. just because some of the other classes have DK cards that are better at generating infinite value doesn't take away from the fact that jaina is exclusively offered the chance to pull her DK card at a higher rate than any other class (warlock is the only one that's remotely close)

until this issue gets fixed you should not pick any other class besides mage in arena when offered.

the synergy pool is straight up garbage anyway so hopefully they remove it soon.
---

actually inkmaster solia is pretty bad but yeah, the general idea of my point still stands.
---

VeryInsane posted...

Rexxar has to be the best one in Arena right

Feels like building beasts has lots of value there

It is the 6th highest-rated card in the game, after Vinecleaver, Infestation, FWA, Gorehowl, and Pyros.

Maria: I'm not saying Jaina is a bad card. But it's only slightly above average, and if you're behind on the board it's a dead card. It's also the lowest-rated Death Knight, and by a comfortable margin.
---

dowolf posted...

Maria: I'm not saying Jaina is a bad card. But it's only slightly above average, and if you're behind on the board it's a dead card. It's also the lowest-rated Death Knight, and by a comfortable margin.

once again

the issue is not that the other death knight cards are better

the issue is that you are significantly more likely to draft it than any of the others (except warlock, which is still less likely, but not as big of a margin)

this is a huge deal. I have no idea how to make that more clear to you.
---

dude I just checked it's a 75

a 75 is not even a bad card
---

Yeah rexxar is crazy in arena.

5 armor + 2dmg to board for 6

play an 8 mana beast every turn (sorta)
---

How often do you get Legendaries in Arena now
---

VeryInsane posted...

How often do you get Legendaries in Arena now

3% chance of legendary, but there's an increased chance during your first two picks

which are coincidentally the same two that are drawn from the synergy pool

this is the synergy pool mage has access to for legendaries


---

I see

I would probably pick Medivh over all of those tbqh but I don't even play arena
---

by contrast this is what Warlock is most likely to draft if they draft a legendary in any given deck



this is a problem
---

VeryInsane posted...

I see

I would probably pick Medivh over all of those tbqh but I don't even play arena

I mean yeah if you're offered medivh you pick medivh. but these are the cards you are most likely to be offered. also it's worth noting that

1. kazakus and medivh are both better in mage than they are in warlock
2. frost lich jaina is significantly better than bloodreaver gul'dan
---

too lazy to make more graphics but I'm skimming the lists now

(legendary draft adjustment rating by class, based on synergy pool bonus)

priest: 2 good, 0 bad
mage: 2 good, 1 average, 0 bad
hunter: 1 good, 1 average, 0 bad

paladin: 1 average
shaman: 1 good, 1 average, 1 bad
druid: 1 good, 1 bad
rogue: no adjustment

warlock: 1 good, 1 average, 3 bad
warrior: 1 bad
---

re; rallying blade

so first of all we see in the top end scenario paladin ends up falling average and short of mage (just as I mentioned above when I first brought the issue up). as for rallying blade in particular it had just as much of a synergy pool occurance bonus as any of the following cards

nightbane templar (21) <- Bad
howling commander (41) <- Bad
rallying blade (85) <- Good
steward of darkshire (69) <- Good

Average: 54

basically completely average. so top end scenario paladin results are average. common/rare scenario the paladin results are average. they definitely do not benefit more from the synergy pool than mages do. they are completely average. but even worse it's a case where good cards and bad cards cancel each other out to give a net average result. this means you may get lucky and draft good cards but you may get unlucky and draft bad cards. as opposed to mage where you're just straight up more likely to draft good cards as a result of the synergy pool bonuses.
---

Next time dopplegangsters evolve was used against me it was slightly better.

Instead of 8/8, 6/6, 6/6, he got 5/5, 4/5 taunt, 4/7 spell power

Gonna keep a personal tally of these. Ya know, for science.
---

Man speaking of Arena legendaries.

Last night I mind controlled Sindragosa. Next turn he played Antonidas and got two fireballs in hand. Luckily, I drew shadow word death and removed it. A few turns later when the board had evened out, he played a second Antonidas.

Wtf.

I'm just realizing it was probably from the Sindragosa thing. Do those say "created by frozen champion" or something similar?
---

MariaTaylor posted...

re; rallying blade

so first of all we see in the top end scenario paladin ends up falling average and short of mage (just as I mentioned above when I first brought the issue up). as for rallying blade in particular it had just as much of a synergy pool occurance bonus as any of the following cards

nightbane templar (21) <- Bad
howling commander (41) <- Bad
rallying blade (85) <- Good
steward of darkshire (69) <- Good

Average: 54

basically completely average. so top end scenario paladin results are average. common/rare scenario the paladin results are average. they definitely do not benefit more from the synergy pool than mages do. they are completely average. but even worse it's a case where good cards and bad cards cancel each other out to give a net average result. this means you may get lucky and draft good cards but you may get unlucky and draft bad cards. as opposed to mage where you're just straight up more likely to draft good cards as a result of the synergy pool bonuses.

Nighbane Templar is a common, which makes it significantly less likely. More importantly, you aren't approaching this question the right way; namely, is Mage better or worse with Jaina removed from the pool? The answer, quite simply, is that it is better.

also Gul'dan is significantly better than Jaina what are you smoking.

bng_mmmk posted...

Man speaking of Arena legendaries.

Last night I mind controlled Sindragosa. Next turn he played Antonidas and got two fireballs in hand. Luckily, I drew shadow word death and removed it. A few turns later when the board had evened out, he played a second Antonidas.

Wtf.

I'm just realizing it was probably from the Sindragosa thing. Do those say "created by frozen champion" or something similar?

You can draft the same legendary multiple times, similarly to how, in Magic, you can have a limited deck with more than four copies of a card (why hallo there Squadron Hawk #11 don't mind if I do).

i'm just more confused as to the Sindragosa, since we have confirmation Blizzard screwed up and didn't put it in the Arena.
---