Lurker > ctesjbuvf

PoppyTheNinja posted...

again the actions are kinda consistent with the miller claim

They're not kinda consistent they are completely consistent, it literally threw me off for days. You can for sure attack their worth but not their consistency.

red13n posted...

Hes had a pretty hard fixation on Roshan and I still don't feel particularly good about him.

If anyone is even considering Lopen and I being scum/scum, Lopen is without a doubt the one you kill first. Role usefulness alone is enough there.

I think Poppy getting that angry yesterday to the point of risking modkill makes a scum/scum interaction incredibly unlikely. Probably the best clear.

Ulti bringing up Crescent is also ridiculous and not even remotely okay if he's not legit frustrated at the time. It's still not okay, but worse as a play. Also he's our only uncountered protection. Don't think he should be touched either.

Scum were humoring the idea of a scum in Kirby/Lea was more than the rest of you. Really made it seem like they hoped for a mislynch in that interaction. Or maybe Roshan, scum has reason to find him. Kirby is very unlikely scum with those two.

chang is all wifom atm. I want to refuse to believe he's be this insistant if he knows he looks an an idiot after the flip. We're talking about a game that last game he played should know that his death would all but implicate Lopen as scum and still chose to write in his death journal that town should kill me (I was town), so him being insistent in his terrible reads is not unlike his townplay. Initial thought is that he would know how terrible he looks when I flip town so he's not, but given how good he looks now I am considering if it's a play to look confirmed. Hardest to judge.

Also being that fixated on Roshan is scummy. Where are the people that keep saying third party discussing is scum. Corrik's reasons are well known, but there is literally little point at considering this and not just scumhunt. We barely even know what we're looking for.

Lopen's game has been killing a good aligned role D1 very tunnelvisioned. We all said how good play that was (but know we know there was no skill in that).

The rest of his game has literally been all about not reading the game by trying to figure out meta stuff, purely and without exception, but only hiding behind a convincing bussing move. That's been the plan, it would seem. He has openly refused to consider anything else to the point of at least two people getting legitimately angry. How is any of this townplay.

Yesterday, Poppy was calling Lopen scum or stupid to the point of receiving a host warning in topic for his insults.

Today, Ulti was doing insults to a similar degree for similar reasons (though he got no host warning). Then instantly believes that Lopen must be the one telling the truth in two contradicting statements for... no explained reasons.

Lopen posted...

Tango (2 charges) - I get greatly increased health regeneration for the night or day I use it. I cannot give it away. I assume this is how doc saves work in this game and I'm basically bulletproof when I use it but I am not sure.

Also you don't get to say you were a bad watch N2 while claiming to have used your only remaining healing item that night. That's stupidly hypocritical but everyone chooses to ignore things like this for no reason.

For what it's worth and since Ulti decided to threw his plans in the water without thinking twice, when Ulti used that healing salve on me, I was specifically told it would have saved me if I was on the brink of death but given that wasn't the case nothing happened. With everything revealed so far we already know there are damanging and healing aspects beyond kills and saves, it's so blatantly dumb to speculate this.

"Doc saves this game is probably that I and only I am bulletproof" is another ridiculous statement that almost passed by me because of the stupidity that followed.

Lopen posted...

Changmas is in my mind mortally confirmed town-- he's just playing this game too open mindedly

He is quite definitely the least open minded person atm lol.

Also up there in most ridiculous statements is trying to cite Lea, almost assuredly killed N1 for having claimed power, as what would be definite optimal play for Miller Power not wanting to out their own power.

PoppyTheNinja posted...

it's less you having a betteer role and more than i find it super hard to believe there would be duplicate roles, especially town watcher when that would quite literally be a gamebreaking combination

Yeah, but it's not as much a dublicate as you're making it out to be. They work differently in several ways and chang would not often get it this early either. Being watch by my tells them straight up a watcher exists. If things go differently, it's a late backup assuming chang is even alive. With all the killing, there's a fair chance he never gets it. The odds of us even have it at the same time are low and even if we did, the setup trap is big enough that you might very well lynch one and then scum can kill the other. You simply cannot just say two watchers is too strong and not consider the rest. In the very unlikely even a time comes where both chang and I can use this on each other, then we're awarded catching one scum before one of us dies, unless they have a ninja or unless they still have a roleblocker or probably something else I'm not thinking of. So yeah, chances of getting it too this "game breaking" point are way lower than you're making them out to me.

Also chang's initial post about it straight up complained that my role had something he would struggle to get on his which I stand by is in contention for the most ridiculous statement anyone has made.

PoppyTheNinja posted...

lol gg then, no brainer

Seriously, for all you insisting on doing setup meta, chang saying there's no way I have gotten a better role than him is the worst point.

Lopen posted...

Like Lea said "my ability is much better than Kirby's" I think you could get away with the same thing

Lea was killed right away and the best guess is that is why, what a bad argument.

As I said, I didn't want to risk outting a power role early.

Lopen posted...

I know we all have 5 second memories but I did basically get Sultan lynched by myself.

It's ironic that ctes is simultaneously trying to argue watching me n1 and n2 while at the same time arguing he's more town looking than me. It's a tough position.

The first paragraph is exactly why I did that lol.

I don't know if I necessarily do, you were a town read of mine until this, but it's the better way to go about it than setup meta.

Kirby321 posted...

Ctes being unwilling to name other scum besides Lopen is pretty telling.

"Guys stop setup metaing and look at the interactions between everyone!"

By the end of the day, I expect an answer for who you think is Roshan and who might be Lopen's scummate, if you had to say he had one.

I will give you my best guess if you let me live past my sleep. As I've done several times already.

changmas posted...

Furthermore at the start of today i was already asking people to look into you so i never had you down as solidly town in the first place and from my reading of the game, i think lopen still looks more town than you.

This is the only good part of your post probably, but it would be better for you to use your new information and go back.

But yeah, the right townplay is considering things like these carefully and hold off on your vote until you've given it time to consider. We fortunately have time for that. It's lazy to think "we can just lynch the other one afterward", 1v1 can be beneficial to mafia, you want to make the right call and spend the full day trying to achieve that. If you arrive at the wrong conclusion so be it, but you do try first.

But we should stop doing setup meta, completely. This game is way off on that. It's very apparent that Lopen and I cannot both tell the truth though, that's different.

Everyone should look at Lopen and I and consider who looks more towny, which I will remind everyone for good measure is not the same as playing good. Consider why both Lopen and ctes as both town and scum would do what they have done and see if that can draw you to the right conclusion. We have two flipped scum whose posts may be used to help so that's nice. The importance is doing this without setup meta.

I will skip this exercise and begin reading the game as if there are three scum flipped and try to work of off that instead. Hopefully I can do a better job than so far. This will not be before I've slept though, because I've stayed up way longer than intended.

##vote: Lopen

Right. The likely other one I'm way more uncertain of. I really don't think it's Kirby when ignoring setup meta. I still doubt it's SBell. It could be Ulti, but I doubt it and he will resolve himself. Red says less than usual, but I also absolutely can't read him.

Lopen asked me to check my pm if I was a ninja watcher and I thought that was really weird.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Not the same exact one.

It's not the exact same one. He gets to be a better version of watcher than me.

Kirby321 posted...

If we kill Ctes and he's town, we lose one Watcher and get another one.

I don't see a problem here.

Unless they stun chang and shoot him.

But sure, it helps.

You should all not setup meta this. That's the lesson to learn now I think. I apologize having done the same. You should look at the first two days and think what's town and what's not. Not what is good play and what is not, but what is townplay and what is not. You also all know that Lopen has way more experience than me.

You'd have two believe two watchers couldn't co-exist despite being pretty different and despite one not being available right away. Which I don't think is unreasonable at all.

One role being better than another is not an argument you make for scumhunting.

Like, if you're town chang, I take some insults back, but complaining and refusing to believe that you'd not have gotten as good a role as someone else in mafia is ridiculous.

changmas posted...

but truly in my heart of hearts i do not believe this game could be balanced such that i start as a vanilla and have to buy watcher for 5 days worth of passive income meanwhile someone else starts the game that way.

especially when everyone else's powers are similarly useless from the start, except for him (and maybe ulti).

This line of thinking what should and should not be possible has put me in a situation where I appear to die despite being the best role in the game. You have to consider the nerfs made to my role to compensate that I do start with it.

Also your argument is a bit stupid because in a normal game you'd forever be a vanilla and I'd forever be a standard watcher. Game has never been about balancing people on the same team lol. Some roles are always better than others.

Kirby321 posted...

Yeah bullshit.

You do not even remotely consider that chang is town if three Millers being impossible is your hill to die on. There is absolutely no way two town-sided Watchers is a thing is three Miller is so unrealistic.

I hadn't seen his latest post yet when he said that, jeez.

Kirby321 posted...

It's inconsequential who we lynch in the end, really, but it'd be very nice to be 3/3.

If you think so, you lose the worse role.

changmas posted...

My Agh's shard upgrade, which I have to spend 3 days and 2 successful lynches' worth of income on, is to become a ninja watcher.

Oh, okay, I don't think chang says this if it's not true and that does make him look less stupid.

Well, in this crazy setup you get to be a ninja and also I assume not have people tell you you they have been watched.

So getting an actually useful role is balanced out by possibly being counterclaimed by 2-3 people. I doubt both Kirby and chang is lying at least. That's rough.

To whoever is still town in this mess of a setup, I advice to setup meta much less in the future than we have done so far, I'm also to blame for this. You were all doing to so good when you just based everything on interactions with each other.

Chang looks so stupid if town here, but as scum he'd also know I'm town. Hm.

Lopen posted...

Han is wincing in dead town chat thinking you'd lynch me, the guy he was calling town, over Ctes here.

He was calling me town too.

Kirby321 posted...

You and Ulti can't visit the same person. No way in hell would scum let you live if you're actually Town Watcher, and unless you can watch yourself, Ulti is the only way you can stay alive. At most, you can confirm me and (to some extent) Poppy.

Right, that's true. I am not told specifically if I can watch myself, but I can visit a living player so I don't see why not.

changmas posted...

yeah so Lea counterclaimed the miller part without ever saying the useful part of her role

No way that doesn't happen if a third one claims.

Stop acting like the situation would be the same with two or three claimed millers, it's terrible.

Kirby321 posted...

I get the feeling if Han were still alive, he'd lynch Lopen without hesitation.

Hopefully, because Han is good. Poppy, this is why he gets killed despite not likely being important.

Kirby321 posted...

Ulti and I can confirm ourselves off of Lopen. We can't do the same with Ctes.

You can, it's just not as simple. But if you visit whoever I watch over, you will be told you have been watched.

I know I said my upgrade is poison and you might fear that, but I have 200G because as you say I haven't been on the right lynched. It's potentially very good but can also backfire hard. If I'm scum and know I can get extra kill through my upgrade why have I not voted for the scum lynched?

Lopen posted...

There were two miller claims, and you know you're miller. You know one is lying if three can't exist.

Yes, this is exactly why I attacked the other one when one flipped. I wanted to get the lynch through without outing my power role if possible. If I'm Miller Something Useless I claim much earlier.

changmas posted...

hold the line Kirby! do not fall for scum's temptations!

I believe this is your cue to explain yourself.

Lopen posted...

You claim miller day 1 and force the standoff in this case imo

That literally doesn't answer the question at all. You were questioning attacking the second claimed miller after the first one flipped, which was day 2.

Lopen posted...

Scum ctes
1. Doesn't know Lopen is psychic
2. Thinks Lopen thinks highly of himself and will believe the watch choice

That doesn't answer why he'd think it was the smart claim to make.

UltimaterializerX posted...

We are not killing Lopen today, and I very much trust you guys to kill him tomorrow if ctes flips town.

If you're starting to consider me as town, do consider what role you'll rather risk losing here.

The miller case you're making here is also stupid. I was ready to humor two millers but I thought three would be ridiculous. How is that unreasonable. Why should I think there was no lier there because one of them flipped? Why would it have to be only me or all three? That logic is so bad.

Lopen posted...

Consider why Ctes would watch me night 2

That's really all you need to know he's not watcher

And a third miller wouldn't keep going for the head of the second miller when the first miller had flipped

That's really all you need to know he's not miller

Also

Consider why scum ctes would say he watched Lopen night 2 as scum.

Consider why third miller would want to keep going for the head of the second miller when the first miller had flipped.

These are just as important.

Kirby321 posted...

Perhaps Corrik will roast the rest of us for being absolute morons. Perhaps he'll roast you for not bringing up your Miller identity earlier.

It's almost certainly both.

But he'd also know I wouldn't say that now if it wasn't true, probably.

By not asking much I would mean not answering much.

Lopen is probably just trying to get as much info as possible knowing his days are numbered right now. I would consider not asking much.

Lopen posted...

I didn't say that as the core of my argument. This is entirely to help figure out Roshan. You were caught in a lie, Ulti has been being built for days.

It was only the first thing you said after the mass claim.

You can't just list some reasons to act like you also didn't claim good roles couldn't exist.

Consider a few more things while thinking I've played these roles so badly that I cannot be town. I have played three games here, one where I replaced in late. I have literally never used an action in any of those games.

Good town play is not just thinking that the play doesn't make sense and ignore the rest. Good town is asking why more here. Not only ask why I'd do this as town, but also ask that if I'm scum why would I claim this here and now on a day where we've spoken of mass claiming the whole day? I'd have had people to talk to about it, why'd they have said yes to this as well?

To whomever that is either on me now or saying they will be and is town; if I die like this, take a deep breath before joining me in dead town chat.

changmas posted...

You don't let bad claims live simply because they claim strong roles.

Are you ever come around and tell me why this is so obviously the right answer to you?

Lopen posted...

Fun fact I am saying lynch neither of you due to setup meta

Yes you are. You are literally saying good roles can't exist.

Lopen posted...

For the record I'm not necessarily saying buy items to use them on me, but you could absolutely fake me out by visiting the shop in daylight. The point is to throw off the number guessing math. You have to be sure I won't just guess the right number.

What a load of s***. It's absolutely to waste actions. You know fully well that if I was actually scum you would not need to prove yourself like that.

I cannot comprehend that we're ignoring every interaction in the game to do setup meta and then setup meta so utterly terrible.

You don't lynch your only claimed protection. You don't lynch your only claimed scanner. Someone has been suggesting both today.

*needs you all

Lopen needs to all to waste money on a uesless plan before ending day in way that confirms him scum.

And somehow that sounds reasonable to you but a watcher in this setup doesn't.

Being wrong about one person doesn't chance what happened the first day.

Lopen posted...

You haven't played miller how you'd expect
You haven't played watcher how you'd expect (why on earth watch me night 2)

It might not be optimal but unlike your claimed role, there's also no correct answer. Corrik mentioned in this game a game where four millers claimed, three initially with only the first being real and a fourth real one much later. That's the only other instance of something like this I have heard of. But you're purposely ignoring the combination of my roles to prove your point. Because I wasn't just miller, I have a role that you don't want to claim right away and there is no way I could've counterclaimed miller without it leading to claiming watcher as well, so I chose to not claim it but still play as if I had and honestly I'm surprised no one seemed to consider why I was so certain.

Watching you night 2 isn't as bad as it's made out to be either because there was no clear choice to watch.

Lopen posted...

And it worked spectacularly. I played my role how you'd expect.

What a great statement for a role that you basically don't have to think about.