Lurker > KanzarisKelshen

IfGodCouldDie posted...

This literally makes no sense. Kanz, claim is bs. The people voting Han are bs. Get back on DYL, lynch scum!

Give reasons because I am not hopping off Han with this weak shit lmao

I'm staking my life on this and you think I'm going to flinch over this?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

'K. Can you read that one in particular and give me your thoughts on it?

And to answer...

Recall Hearthstone mafia. Why did I think Ulti was Scum? Was my insistence that he was Scum because people were generally agreeing with me?

No, you thought he was scum on gut and knowing him. That game is why I didn't like your play here, because when things weren't going your way you made a looooot of noise calling for his head and didn't really stop fighting for it at any point.

(if anyone else has comments on this please share btw. Deadline's in 95ish minutes and I want to hear everyone's thoughts here.)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Reposting something I asked Han in the previous topic:

So you think the ISOs he's done in the last...I wanna say few hours are empty? Nothing of substance in them at all? I'm surprised considering you also didn't like SBell and DYL's notes on him look decent to me, for instance.

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

So you think the ISOs he's done in the last...I wanna say few hours are empty? Nothing of substance in them at all? I'm surprised considering you also didn't like SBell and DYL's notes on him look decent to me, for instance.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

If you do and he's town then I'll cheerfully eat my hat.

"oops"
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Aight, Han, floor's all yours. Ask your questions.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

In that case lets fix that, shall we?

@Dark_Young_Link

Can you come in and answer Han's questions for a bit? I want to give him a chance to prove himself before this is over. Let's put that claim of his to the test.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

What do you expect me to do? Post 500 times that DYL is Scum?

Actually yes

unironically yes, in fact

Y'know, kinda like what I'm doing now

You got your target, you go after them hard and don't let up, because it matters. We lost two people day 1 and we got a temporary reprieve for today. I want to make sure we use it well. C'mon, Han. Sell me you're for real here.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

HOLD IT!


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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Johnbobb posted...

I'm not even on the train

I know, that's my scumlist (aside from Han, because I'm staking my life on that one)

I want to make clear who I'd like to look into when this is over, because talking is how we win this game, not being quiet at each other
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep for sure, not feeling super great about Death either

List is currently those two, John and God to an extent. Neab and Doop aren't cleared either but I wouldn't pursue them over the others I listed
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

turbopuns2 posted...

We really did get Han all the way to -2 with more people waiting in line to hop on with basically just "Kanz read him as scummy based on years old meta" as the primary driving force.

That doesn't feel the greatest.

I'm positive there's a couple scum on this train. The thing is, I also think there's a serious probability of Han being scum anyway and his teammies wanting to look good with an unavoidable bus. It's not just a case based on old meta - the example of how Han reacted with regards to DYL and how he basically let the lynch rot while everything was stagnant is the more damning thing to me. The fact he's calling for it now when he started screwing around is what's telling, IMO.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

turbopuns2 posted...

It is weird to me that sheep said he thought about counterclaiming Kanz

Like, wut. Why would you do that

I'm not sure if this is just super bad scum play (he'd basically be gladiating himself to buy Han a day and would probably end up dead for it) or mind-boggling town that's trying to reach for reasons not to trust because ????

leaning former here
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep007 posted...

Fuck it, Han isn't here so I'm gonna say my bit before I go. If someone on him could unvote so I can vote him that'd be great. Or death could vote and I could vote Puns, for kicks.

When Kanz claimed, I thought it was a spontaneous fakeclaim, likely from Town. There was no apparent interest in Han until an hour or so before the claim, and there wasn't much obvious scum motivation in there (I was thinking of countering, because I thought it was fake, until I realised he was probably town). That's why I've been worried about voting Han. I don't know if it's a bad lynch or not, and I don't know if it's a good lynch due to or despite Kanz' claim. My second biggest problem is with the day kill as I already stated, although that one may be more paranoia than anything.

Why would I fakeclaim

This is like the silliest argument and it honestly just makes me suspicious of you sheep

you've thrown like seven kinds of shade and not substantiated even one of them or gone to bat here

like

walk me through this

why would you assume that if I'm town (and you seem to believe it), I'd be so antitown as to fakeclaim here?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

https://twitter.com/Taniel/status/1059955427469942784

Well, this is interesting
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Yes he hasnt appeared yet

I unvoted so we're L-4, there's room still. And speaking of...

##Vote: Han

Grumblegrumblegrumble
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

##Unvote

Consider my vote on Han in spirit for now. Will return once I hear his defense unless he manages to persuade me
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

If they do we lynch em tbqh

Play antitown die like antitown imo
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

We can definitely use a couple extra votes on han just in case

Scum might try to do some shenannes and we dont want none of that
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep007 posted...

Han really needs to get in here. I'll probably only be here another hour and I have no clue where I'll leave my vote if Han hasn't turned up by then because I'm uncomfortable with leaving it there at this stage. I feel better about Kanz as Town after rereading the first topic of this day but I'm still really not sold on the claim and I'm surprised there aren't more who are doubtful of it.

This is because there is no other coherent explanation for the lack of nightkills my dude

Like

thought experiment

Can you think of one that wouldn't have popped up already? Do you think we have a hidden bulletproof that just so happened to eat a kill?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

*if they do, you get the idea

been typing nonstop for like an hour+, I'm not stopping to do professional editing work here
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

4 ATM I think - your vote would make 5. Scum can hammer that if they all jump on it but if we do we systematically kill everyone on this lynch train and win for free tbqh
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

turbopuns2 posted...

Kanz you instantly asked chris to confirm you with his power. Didn't you think that might get you killed, and with you having a power that wouldn't be good?

Possibly - but I was pretty sure scum wouldn't yolo a roleblock onto someone who was confirmed town just for giggles. If things had gone better for us and Chris had confirmed me, I was prepared to take a close look at who EoD scumspects were and ponder RBing one of them, but I was pretty sure I could wait on it a bit. Chris was 100% dying N1 unless we had a Bus Driver to protect him from an assassin kill (because he ALWAYS draws the scum supershot), and I wouldn't have shot myself N1 if I was confirmed when that opened up a chance at getting you, Han or Corrik. I figured two nights was plenty of time to decide on a target, and if I managed to draw a shot away from one of you guys, hey - that's a net win for town as far as I'm concerned. I don't mind taking one for the team if it means we win.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

I think the theory from Doop is this:

A) He thinks I'm town. Why I don't know yet. Doop? Why the strong read (before I dropped the bomb I mean, after I can see it).

B) If I'm right and Han's scum, then what I said means he went after DYL to pretend to scumhunt and fake his usual antics. This implies DYL is town, because Han dogging a weaker fellow mafioso day and night for two days straight makes no sense without prompting. There's no reason to bus before DYL's brought himself under fire, not on day 1 when townies are plentiful still. It's gambitting, and bad gambitting at that.

C) Conversely, if Han is town, it means his hangut was potentially genuine. I don't think it is at all, but the theory is probably that with 'True Hangut' (TM) in play, taking a closer look at DYL makes a lot of sense.

This is speculative, cause I don't know what doop's thinking - but I think that's the idea behind it. I want to hear Doop expound on this too, but this shouldn't sway you from voting Han for now IMO. If you think the lynch stinks after he's defended himself, there's time to switch off later.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

turbopuns2 posted...

wasn't the first line of that DYL post referring to himself?

and then only the second part referring to Kanz?

Yes

This is what DYL was responding to

So you being bussed makes more sense than scum trying to save you?

The Kanz attempt comes across as town scurrying to try and find a better lynch than a player that was pretty obviously town

There is no hard defend and Sheep is massively overreaching here. Funny that I talked momentum just now - feels like he's trying to derail this lynch's, isn't he?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Neablis posted...

Kanz just humor me for a moment, and put yourself in my shoes for a moment.

Do you think from the outside looking in that anyone should have a super hard town read on you at eod? So hard not to listen to anything else?

No. Absolutely not. You need to always doubt everything and never take shit at face value

I think giving me the benefit of doubt and voting Han at least until he shows up is sound though. Nobody has volunteered another explanation for why there were no nightkills, what I said checks out in terms of actions, and if nothing else, making sure Han can't coast and hide and has to come in and defend himself is good. If I was looking in from the outside, I would say give me 100% trust on voting Han to make him show up and 60% on actually having caught scum or so. I think this is a good, solid number.

PS: Also, ask yourself - what does scum gain by making this play? I don't think you can tell me town had its shit together before I dropped this bomb, Neab, being 100% honest. The ultimate scum play, and people who've played scum with me will back me up on me saying this, is to not play and let a headless town kill itself, because it's harder to get momentum going against someone who says nothing and keep it than someone who's actively talking and looking scummy. Let's try to work this out by being like Sherlock Holmes and eliminating impossibilities. What reason does Scum!Kanzaris have to expose himself here when he's mostly flown under the radar so far?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep007 posted...

DYL defending Kanz hard right at the start of today strikes me as a little odd

Why so? Can you quote the post so we can all look at it again? Multiple people called out that lynch as dumb, and each one had solid reasons for it (because it really was dumb)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Is there anything else that seems shaky sheep? If I can find the info for you I will, just say what's missing. I don't have hard evidence, but I'm willing to put in 300% effort to make this happen.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep007 posted...

The problem I have with the player read is that Han has been like this in every one of the recent games, and been Town in all of them. Doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be like that as scum but I don't think it's a scumtell, at least not to me.

How long have you known him? Because we go back what, five years? More? And not just by sharing the same board either. It's something I feel because I know the player beyond the mafia game. I know what Han is like when he's hyped about something and really buys into it. He's relentless (in a good way, dude chases his goals). And doesn't he sound relentless in his posts? But then you look at them in aggregate and all that hype amounts to nothing. It's a cover. Seriously gimme like, two hours and I'll be home and collect all his posts if that's what it takes. You'll see what I mean about him not going hamhocks. There's smoke but there's no fire.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Seriously dude - put the vote down on Han even if you don't believe me so he has a reason to show up. Put pressure on him. You can take it off later, but we need to get him in here and see what he has to say for himself and that won't happen if he's not the lynch leader. Do me a solid here, sheep. C'mon.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep007 posted...

Kanz, why would you use an RB, (that's one shot, may I add) N1 when you yourself said you have a very low risk of dying? Far more optimal to use it later, and you don't strike me as the type of player to spam abilities, although I may have read your personality wrong. In fact, I don't understand why you'd not jump onto other people who you seemed to be so angry at earlier at night when picking a RB if you were going to do it. Especially one against Han of all people.

I just don't understand the thought process behind it. I get you're saying you were looking for reads, but it doesn't sound right to me to spend the whole day looking for reads and ignoring the very important info you have until late on.

Because Night 1 is the time when assassin kills are deployed, Sheep. It's when town gets absolutely hammered. For town, N1 is their worst time because they only have reads and circumstantial information, but for scum, N1 is the time to feast because they have a target rich environment and full powers. We'd lost two people already - I thought, and I still DO think this, that we couldn't afford to take a shellacking and lose another two if scum had an extra shot left. So I thought about it, I thought about it, I thought about it...and I realized that there was one player whose responses just didn't jive with me, and that was odd because I had no strong reads on anyone else due to sickness. I was angry at everyone and pissed off that I'd almost gotten specialed and grateful to puns but I didn't really know what to think after that debacle of a d1...until I thought of Han. And I've learned that when you have a strong gut response, you have to follow it. So I did, and maybe, just maybe, it paid off. And now here we are. I promise you - I'm not a great player, but I'm an old-ass player and I've been in a lot of situations and games. I know Han and this just isn't how he does things when he's town. Fuck, he was aggro when he was a dead mason and speaking through me once! Why would he vanish when we're all reeling and uncertain? No, this isn't him. It's not him at all. This is not a roleblock read. This is a player read. I talked earlier about whether you had any reads you'd stake your life on, IIRC. This is that for me. If I fuck up, lynch me tomorrow because I will be responsible for having wasted town's time - but I know this is gonna go somewhere. So please, please trust me.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

*some mild pressuring of DYL, you get the idea
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Neablis posted...

Ok, so what led to you becoming han for instance over say myself or igcd? Just feeling han would carry kill?

Inactivity and relative impactfulness. Even accepting that Han could've been busy, the way he reacted in the wake of Chris' death just didn't track. He did some mild pressuring of Chris, going 'night guys, I expect a DYL claim by tomorrow' and then had no reaction when he showed up again. He's not acting like someone who just saw one of their teammates get daykilled out of the blue with no warning. No stepping up the pressure, no super bulldogging, no yelling at the town for being dumbasses and not following him when he strongly feels he's right...Han is my homie. I know him really well as a person, I know he's a go-getter when he's invested in something, and he isn't here when there's every reason for him to be. We needed a leader and instead durdled around with no focus. At the start of day 2, we STILL needed direction and this is what he comes back with...

I came in ready to yell at people but there's already been a good deal of negativity so I'll try to keep things pleasant.

I know this is partially my fault for not being around for end of day, but allow me to give the game-by-game reminder: Listen. To. People. Who. Know. What. They. Are. Talking. About.

DYL is dying today.

Corrik looked a little worse because the one thing he did day 1 was push a mislynch, but I believe his claim here and it lines up with Town Corrik.

Puns at end of day looked really bad at first but then it became apparent that he wasnt caught up and just firing in the dark.

I know I'm right about DYL, and I really dont like ho SBell has been buddying up to me ever since I said he was likely Scum (after the whole voting me thing).

##vote: DYL

When I get to a desktop, I can quote the posts, but DYL's posts at end of day and beginning of day are basically claiming Scum, so can we please not do the thing where worse players try to defend someone I tell you is Scum.

...And then nothing. No more posts for hours. I'm telling you, this is not how town Han plays. He takes charge, he pushes, pushes and pushes and he never changes course if his gut's telling him he caught someone. This is a put-on. And combined with how night turned out, it gives me strong reasons to believe he's scum and we should hang him.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

htaeD posted...

You could have been daykilled before you ever got to leave a hint though, for all we know!!
(Though I guess that really was a one-time thing?)
You didnt even engage Han.

No offense, but if this is all true, this was not a good way to go about it, IMO.
At the very least dont spring this is on us this late.

It was as early as I could manage. I was very, very detached from the game yesterday and couldn't really go over it the way I wanted to. I know you have to sleep soon Death, but that's partly why I came out with it now. Waiting till later would've meant leaving you unable to vote and that's something I can't roll with in this situation. I need every last bit of town activity we can muster today.

(Also let's be real, mafia is not killing me unless I say I'm power or they find out. I'm like, seventh at best on the hitlist normally because I'm not that good a player. I fel confident I would live until I was ready to make the claim for this reason.)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

htaeD posted...

So you're trying to say everything up until now was just fake?

No. I legitimately needed to talk to people and see their reactions while I wasn't pretty much KO'd. I missed end of day last time death, because I was too fried to defend myself. When have I ever done that? Like, I'm sure you remember me talking about posting from phone at dinners and social gatherings before when EoD was incoming. I commit to mafia games and play my heart out, but I literally couldn't because my body wouldn't allow me to. Now that I've rectified that and found my place in the game I don't feel scared about throwing out this bombshell.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

htaeD posted...

In fact

*checks*

Han wasnt even in your top 2 of most wanted lynches!

Of course not. You think I'd foreshadow something like this and give someone I know is a better player than me a chance to see through it and start making preparations? As if! Part of being the Ultimate Tactician is knowing your own weaknesses and making strengths out of them. People think of me as a feeble, indecisive player, for good reasons, and I was content to work with that mental image until I'd been able to actually play the game a bit to back up my hard info with some strong reads. I'd been on good terms with Han D1, and opted to pretend to keep it that way while I really got into the swing of things. But this is the time to speak up. If I don't, fear town will walk right into a stupid mislynch, and we can't afford to do that anymore. It's time to kick things up!

(PS, somebody link me the archives, seriously. I want to dig up those Hearthstone maf quotes but don't remember the link)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Neablis posted...

Why go so hard for me if you have information that has more....solid footing?

Because I wanted information. I wanted people talking. I wanted, in short, to form proper reads on the rest of the town and watch Han interact before I felt sure. I've been sick as a dog and suffering from allergies, and I did not trust my reads while half-dead and stupid from lack of sleep. But now I've had time to recover and think and I can't see any other way this plays out other than Han being the one who sent the nightkill and got blocked by my intervention.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep007 posted...

You're a one shot Roleblocker, there was no night kill, and your first move wasn't voting Han?

No, because I wanted to see how he'd react. Han is crafty enough to make adjustments as a player if given 48 hours to work with and spin a tale that could justify this, and a single roleblock with an almost full game is circumstantial evidence at best. But I've seen enough from him to believe that he's not playing with Town's best interests at heart and I don't think I can let this slide any longer. To emphasize, the roleblock isn't what's damning. It's that Han isn't playing like he's trying to find scum! He's only picked a single major target and then had a small slapfight with Sbell. That's not how one of the best town scumhunters plays! He's much more active and aggressive, and constantly in everyone's minds, especially when he feels we let a scum he had caught slip away. Somebody hand me the archives and I'll dig up Hearthstone Mafia quotes to prove this. He was BALLISTIC about us letting Ulti go, IIRC.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep007 posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Sheep007 posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

OK. What if I told you I had reasons to suspect Han is the one, then?

Okay, I also have reasons to suspect that the others could be the one, and I haven't seen compelling enough evidence to strongly point to Han over the others (or at the very least over SBell).

No, as in

What if I had a strong reason to think he is? Strong enough to stick my neck out and suffer the consequences of things went wrong for chasing this lead? Would you consider playing ball?

I'm interested, but no dickteasing here. Would have to be something really quite compelling. Do you have it or don't you? If it is, I'd like to hear it now.

Yes. I've thought about this for a while, and I'm starting to realize John is right - this town is stagnating. We're getting killed by scum without them doing anything, and I don't like it. I was hoping to save this for when I had more conclusive evidence, but if I do, we'll have lost the game by then. It's time to flip the chessboard over and go on the offensive.

@Corrik , you asked me to claim earlier. I am not doing this because I am afraid, but because I think town needs it, and my value is already no greater than my vote anymore. You wanted to know who I am?

I am Kanzaris Kelshen, The Ultimate Tactician, One-Shot Roleblocker!

You've probably wondered why we awoke to no kills. I can't promise this is the sole reason why - but I think it's a strong indicator. During Night 1, I suspected Han and thought he was too shaky - and for that reason, I used my roleblock on him! Lo and behold, when we awoke, there were no kills! Is it possible someone else was targeted and saved, or that an unnamed power managed to defend themselves? Yes, very possible. But if so, their silence is throwing the scum for a loop, whereas mine only confuses the town. I've waited and listened to him, and I don't buy his play as the kind town Han would make. With end of day fast approaching, I want to give town enough time to think about this - but I think it's the right move to chase this lead now, before it's too late.

##Unvote
##Vote: Han

Han, I want to hear what you have to say for yourself and tell me why we had no nightkills when I blocked you. Come out and play!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep007 posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

OK. What if I told you I had reasons to suspect Han is the one, then?

Okay, I also have reasons to suspect that the others could be the one, and I haven't seen compelling enough evidence to strongly point to Han over the others (or at the very least over SBell).

No, as in

What if I had a strong reason to think he is? Strong enough to stick my neck out and suffer the consequences of things went wrong for chasing this lead? Would you consider playing ball?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep007 posted...

How did so many people fall for that? I literally put that it was a fakeclaim in the post...

And yes, I know Kanz, and I'm not that good a Town player, which is why I'm not just trying to hammer my reads into everyone's skull. There's probably at least one of the players I consider good (Han/SBell/Puns, to be precise) on the scum team, none of which I'm reading as scum but none of which I have massive town reads on either. Not to mention Death and Corrik, who I have slightly larger Town reads on but haven't seen as scum in years.

OK. What if I told you I had reasons to suspect Han is the one, then?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Did you mean to emptyquote my post or was that just a goof
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Johnbobb posted...

Sheep007 posted...

In that case, who do you feel hasn't been putting in solid effort?

no one specific, really. The game overall just feels a little stagnant today

this is weak stuff

be specific john. It matters. Who should've been posting, and didn't?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

But then I don't think Scum would put almost all their eggs in one basket as it seems like they have if all my gut reads/thoughts are correct.

spoilers they aren't

that's not a diss on you sheep, that's just being realistic. Not even our best players catch all the scumteam consistently this early. It just doesn't happen except once in a blue moon

You need to assume at least a couple of your reads are wrong and consider which ones you'd be willing to bet the farm on and which ones oyu'd be willing to let go
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sheep007 posted...

DYL was around for deadline? Huh. Didn't remember him being there at all.

Also would now be a good time to reveal that I'm masons with Neab or are we not allowed to have people fakeclaiming masons two games in a row

please don't joke about masons sheep

kind of too big a deal to throw out cheaply like that

if you're masons, claim hard and we go on Han whom I suddenly don't like very much. If not, gimme a real reason to get off Neab
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sudden thought: Han has been super quiet this game. This strongly does not fit his town persona. He's had brief bursts of activity but not sustained pressure and that's what characterizes him in my mind. I remember how active he was in Hearthstone maf and this is nothing like it. I need to think about what this means but I suddenly feel a lot better about DYL and a lot worse about him. Call it gut but I'm starting to wonder if he's taken the heat off anyone with his entrances consistently.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Kanz, I feel like you're more than a little biased against those on you, or just trying to throw shade yourself. Can I just ask: what motivation did scum have for lynching you?

Getting off DYL is my first thought, and getting an easy kill is the second. Neither of these is implausible, tbqh. The way I see it, you seem townish, Sheep, but the wagoners that followed you super weren't. And bad scum is very commonly found on stupid wagons of this sort.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

turbopuns2 posted...

Sheep007 posted...

Anyway, I think God and Neab, at least, are the same alignment, and I'm currently thinking Town on both. Probably God a bit more than Neab.

How do you get the conclusion they must be the same alignment?

How does he get the conclusion they're town, more like

they read as both scum to me
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

So when are we gonna all get our shit together and lynch neablis

he's looked pretty fuckin awful today yo
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

htaeD posted...

Honestly Harris shouldnt have made such a big theatrical exit. If he'd kept quiet, I would have found it less awful.

Big same. Stupid play to make on the way out. Misled town
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.