Lurker > KanzarisKelshen

colliding posted...

Look I like DMC5 as much as the next guy but does that mean I want my Final Fantasy to go full hack and slash? 7 Remake is the perfect action/turn-based blend. As long as this has party members and some sort of character growth, it'll still be fine, probably. I'm just not stoked for it, which is a first for a mainline FF for me.

He was part of Dragon's Dogma too

and MvC2

so like, wide spectrum of possibilities we're talkin' about here

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

pjbasis posted...

FF1 has ancient technology stuff in it.

And a satellite station, and a warmech

high fantasy nothing, it's at least as techy as a Wizardry game

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Things we know:

-Heavensward FF14 team is on it. This explains why Stormblood was a big dip in quality.
-Ryota Suzuki is battle director.
-Expected to be out in 2021

Super excited. Looking really cool!

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Maxwell is comically undertiered

ggez

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Black Hat, why not

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Gambit

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oh yeah, and one separate feat because I'm not sure if we can count it or not: in Doom Eternal, the Slayer shoots himself out of a building sized BFG as a projectile. It doesn't hurt him in the slightest. See here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPWRHWBNgw0&feature=youtu.be&t=22m8s

I honestly don't think water is a very good counter to him overall, like in general. He doesn't really seem to care about blunt force trauma.

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

rwlh posted...

What is Doomslayer's durability like?

Also, Liquidator doesn't strike me as super bright. Even if there was a huge body of water in the arena, I feel like he'd be likely to venture away from it, at least at first, then maybe retreat to it when prior options fail.

Sort of late response, but some quick notes...

-The demons couldn't kill him after centuries (aeons? I forget) of him terrorizing hell. The only way they found to get him to chill was to detonate an entire temple complex and bring it down on his head. This didn't kill him, mind, it just put him in suspended animation because he couldn't move. As soon as he was free from the sarcophagus they put him in, he quickly woke up.
-Remember those battery packs those lore entries talk about? The Slayer's way of powering up his armor is crushing them so they detonate and simply absorbing the energy into the circuits of his armor. This doesn't hurt him in any way, and in fact replenishes his health and armor.
-Speaking purely in gameplay terms, no attack in the game can instantly kill him, and most kind of deal scratch damage (which includes rockets, plasma blasts, corrosive acid, waves of pure hell energy, laser beams...). Depending on what you consider 'peak power' for him, he might get the Saving Throw rune, which gives him an extra life if something kills him. I would personally not give him that one, not because it's OP or noncanon, but because I think he has better ones and I'd expect him to use those over ST, but it's there.
-Very long falls don't hurt him, even setting aside his antigravity boots. There's multiple locations where you take 30-50 ft tumbles and all it does is make him do a three point landing.
-Tanks the energy release from the wraiths powering hell, here, thrice in a row: https://streamable.com/tvsek
-Survives getting electrocuted by a malfunctioning reactor without a scratch: https://streamable.com/zj5yg
-Killed a Titan before getting the Praetor armor that enables all of that, on foot. For reference, this is a Titan: https://ibb.co/YkfVmnT

That little blue glow to the side? Thats a Cacodemon. Cacos are the size of a man, more or less, for a sense of scale. It's unknown how much dodging vs tanking the Slayer had to do, but the titan you do fight in Doom Eternal could call down meteor storms, fire laser beams the size of a man, destroy buildings with a single punch, et cetera. Hopefully this serves to provide a picture of his capabilities?

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

For whatever it's worth, the Slayer's weapons can pack multiple megawatts of energy at a minimum (that's his basic pistol), and one of his non-heat based weapons generates hot enough temperatures to ionize argon gas into plasma. This is the lore entry on the Argent Energy that powers his weaponry:

Argent Energy is produced by neutron activation of Argent plasma, a new and powerful substance that was discovered on Mars. This produces an exothermic reaction where recorded temperatures within the plasma have exceeded previously accepted theoretical limits. Through a process not yet fully understood, Argent plasma remains stable and self-contained throughout. Conventional nuclear power is obsolete. What used to take a nuclear reactor 12 months to produce can be generated in a few seconds by the Argent Tower and packaged into an Argent Accumulator no larger than Samuel Hayden's hand.

Argent plasma was originally discovered by the SS Amundsen when it landed in the Promethei Terra region of Mars in 2095 as part of the UAC geological survey mission Frontier. While searching for liquid water springs, the Survey-Bot discovered a narrow trench which has now become known as the "Argent Fracture". This fracture emitted a substance that at first appeared to be an electrical gas cloud.

However, deeper analysis of the substance showed it to be an entirely new form of matter with a quantum signature never before recorded. Initial tests on this new matter immediately showed its potential. When a 2 megakelvin cutting laser was fired at the substance, it absorbed the heat with ease and remained self-contained. A second expedition was planned to further analyze this remarkable new "Argent plasma".

There has been speculation that the development of Argent Energy goes beyond traditional science and bleeds into the realm of SEFT (Spiritual Energy Field Theory). Experiments in this fringe science have been heavily criticized in the past as their development often involves "occult" like practices and the channeling of resources from poorly understood extradimensional resources. Coupled with the reports of cultish practices within the UAC, there are deep concerns over how Argent Energy is being produced, and if it is indeed safe.

The UAC has refused to reveal the details, despite repeated requests by the Global Science Council. Despite concern over the safety of producing energy with a process that is not fully understood, the need for a reliable energy source since the depletion of plutonium and uranium reserves is a powerful argument. When the UAC unveiled an Argent Energy powered, hand sized 24-volt battery with over 12,000 megawatt-hours, the future of energy supply within the Solar System was set. One battery array could power an entire city block for several months. Researchers at the Global Science Council have speculated that the UAC's most advanced battery technology, the Argent Accumulator, can hold over 30,000 megawatt-hours but that the UAC is deliberately bottlenecking the production to maintain control over the market value. The UAC has no comment on the matter.

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NFUN posted...

moisture goes into the air when he, y'know, vaporizes. even if he gets ionized, the water would recombine pretty quickly back to a normal gas

Would the Liquidator survive ionization, though? That's a point where matter is very, very far from a liquid state. The way I see it, it's like...even in the worst case scenario, the Slayer can KO the Liquidator for a while, but the Liquidator has no way to finish off the Slayer because he's so much tankier and harder to kill. It's more likely that eventually the Slayer will get a 10-count than the other way around.

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NFUN posted...

i don't see how those options would put the liquidator down for good when he explicitly can survive vaporization (which i got the impression wouldn't count as a suppression)

If there's no moisture in the air, there's no way for him to respawn, afaik. I kinda wanna say that a BFG explosion probably just utterly eradicates the Liquidator since he's gonna get superheated so hard?

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NFUN posted...

you implied that the weapon didn't come out until eternal, kanz, either directly or by implication, depending on if you're worse at communicating or logic

The sword is basically a lightsaber made of pure soul energy that can kill things that would otherwise not die. In Doom 2016, you use one version of it to kill the elemental undead wraiths powering Hell by stabbing them with its hilt and your main ally/enemy (frenemy?) states that with the sword now carrying their souls they can use it to power all of earth's energy grid.

?

Idk how to be clearer. What else could I have done?

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MetalmindStats posted...

Yeah, that's why I asked about the Doomslayer's pre-Eternal stopping power last topic, because it sounds like that would still be an easy way for him to win if he has any. Now, you could argue that he'd still be too powerful for Mid due to still having the Crucible, but he sure wouldn't be the first mistiered character in the absence of actual discussion to inform NFUN beforehand, so meh.

Just to go over the weaponry that could potentially get the job done outside the Siphoning grenades then:

-Plasma Rifle for obvious reasons would be good here, but one specific ability it has is the Heat Blast, a concentrated discharge so strong it straight up scythes enemies in half.
-BFG 9000 needs no introduction. The same, but more here. Way more.
-If we count multiplayer weaponry, we have the Hellshot (flaming attacks), Tesla Rockets and Lightning Gun (electricity blasts), and Reaper (tortured souls murder you).

So there's like, three minimum and like seven maximum options that could put the Liquidator down for good. Which one you think does the deed is up to you.

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oh yeah, and Doomslayer still, even with this nonsensical repeat. He gets the Siphoning grenades in Doom 2016 (which didn't reappear in Eternal) which actively lifesteal enemies and refill both his health and armor gauge. Even if you assume the hell energy-powered BFG can't kill the Liquidator by vaporizing him completely, he can still get lifestealed to death nonetheless.

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not iconic enough to exist before this year (or to get into the first game, at least)

I think I'm going to rerun this day with that weapon explicitly banned, because a mid character having a weapon that insta-kills almost everything, even immortals, is stupid, even by this game's standard

Pasting this from the last topic to say that's wrong and you didn't read what I wrote about the Crucible. Not only does it appear in 2016, it's plot vital and you need it to finish the game. It's not a usable weapon, but the Slayer carries it even there for like, what, the final third of the game? It's why banning it is nonsense.

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NFUN posted...

in that case... i'm not entirely sure he should be able to use new gear...

It's his most iconic weapon alongside the BFG. By all reckonings he should have it, as it'd be like taking away Cloud Strife's limit breaks because FF7R came out and made them look too cool. Given people like Aang are in mid tier, it should be fine IMO.

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NFUN posted...

i wish i somebody pointed out this sword existed when i was tiering

doomguy

Noms were in like 2017, right? Doom Eternal wasn't out yet at that point so I'm not surprised somebody missed it. It has been a while after all

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rwlh posted...

How does the sword work? And how likely is Doomslayer to use it?

I don't really see Liquidator doing much to damage Doomslayer, but I'd like to have a better idea in my head of how Doomslayer wins.

The sword is basically a lightsaber made of pure soul energy that can kill things that would otherwise not die. In Doom 2016, you use one version of it to kill the elemental undead wraiths powering Hell by stabbing them with its hilt and your main ally/enemy (frenemy?) states that with the sword now carrying their souls they can use it to power all of earth's energy grid.

In Doom Eternal, you get another version of the Crucible as a weapon and it instakills every single demon except the final boss, which is a literal skyscraper sized monstrosity -- which it still chunks an entire lifebar segment of with a single slice, whereas miniguns and plasma and rockets just sloooowly chip each segment down. It also has anti-regeneration/immortality properties, as that demon's type can come back from being killed but not as long as the Crucible blade is embedded inside of them (and you see this demonstrated multiple times across the game). The Slayer can snap the blades off the hilt at will to keep an enemy dead, on that note. It is very, very ridiculous.

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NFUN posted...

gravy i know you're... gravy, but please don't shitpost in topics like this or the rankings i was doing

He's shitposting because I wrote hype packages for mercs for a showmatch the Slayer had. This was before Doom Eternal so he's gotten even stronger since, too.

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(to be clear I don't think ice by itself counters the Liquidator. It's making him sit still long enough to get crucible'd that ruins his day completely)

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The Doomslayer has cryo grenades and a sword that consumes souls. Freeze Liquidator, cleave soul with Crucible. Next!

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I guess that's why they call him...Revolver.

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Shonen_Bat posted...

this has happened exactly zero times as far as I know, so not really that feasible without something better to support it than "it might work this way, maybe"

Yeah, and Kirby has never faced Flash either. There's a lot of unsupported assumptions being made, which is exactly the point I was making. There's no more reason to believe Flash could escape being swallowed than there is to believe Kirby could eat him in the first place.

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Johnbobb posted...

Y'all do know this isn't Smash, right? In the Kirby games, when he swallows enemies to take their powers, the enemies don't come back

By the same token, why would Flash be unable to survive being eaten? We have never seen the deets for how Kirby's monching works. It's perfectly feasible that Flash tears out of Kirby. This is not a good line of reasoninng because it's inconsistent in its application.

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DeathChicken posted...

Why would it be too late? Even if Kirby ate/spit him, then Flash would definitely yoink the speed out of the guy who just copied his speed

Notably this doesn't work in reverse. There have been a few villains who copied powers and tried to take Flash's speed (Savatar was the big one), it doesn't work because of how he's linked to the Speed Force

Also this

Even if you think Kirby copies him, it's not gonna be a mirror match. Multiple speedsters have tried to do this kind of thing to Flash and he always has 'home field advantage' on them.

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Drakeryn posted...

Is speedstealing his go-to in combat? Like again bringing up Flash vs. Deathstroke, Flash doesn't speedsteal, he charges in for a melee attack and gets himself stabbed.

Flash's default tends to be disabling opponents, particularly those he doesn't want to harm. If you think Flash would assume something as cute as Kirby couldn't possibly want to fight on purpose, he's not liable to go for melee attacks, for the same reason he wouldn't punch out a child. More often than not, he uses the environment to take care of business. For example, while fighting a guy who can run on water, he simply kicks the tide back at him to throw him back and retrieves a McGuffin he was carrying. That kinda thing. I really don't see a reason why he tries to melee Kirby as a first approach.

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Flash.

Joke arguments aside, Flash can speedsteal Kirby if he doesn't want to harm him. A kirbster who literally cannot act at all is legally KO'd and that ends the match. Zero reason to assume he gets copied.

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Thinking Aku takes this. Popeye absolutely has the strength to win, but Aku is very, very clever and the setup allows for more than just a fightmans blitzkrieg, which lets him set Popeye up to fail. You have to believe plot armor is active for him to bullshit a win, and I'm not inclined to do that. If we remove that, the cleverer fighter will usually win if all else is equal.

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Giorno has a ton of battle experience that swings this in his favor, and also the ability to do bullshit stuff like turn his clothes into chameleons to sneak attack Liz or whatever. She's not a fighter, and not used to facing people who can outwit her and blindside her. All of her opponents are trivially conventional, and I think that makes a major difference here.

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DeathChicken posted...

A), What "magic", Ken's thing is poking a opponent's pressure points in such a way that they blow up. If anything it's ki manipulation, but the crux of it is knowing where to hit the other guy. B), Probably, he was never above just beating people senseless in garden variety fashion either

'Magic' in the context of Umineko means supernatural abilities, not just literal magic. An example is Battler gets eaten by supernatural creatures and just revives himself. Basically if you couldn't fit a murder under Knox's decalogue, it probably isn't gonna count to kill Battler.

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rwlh posted...

This literally happens in Umineko!

This. If Ken insists on using hokey martial arts magic it's actually probably not going to work and Battler will clown on him. Would he favor mundane ways of killing, is the question? I'm kinda not sure, it feels out of character for him.

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What Bat said. I've read way too many shonens where death gets punched the fuck out, and I don't see why Death would not be vulnerable to shonen narrative conventions if Sera thinks they apply.

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This strikes me as a godstomp for Bigby. He's a lot better in a stand-up fight and he just has to KO John for it to count as a win. The only way John wins is through massive preparation and I don't think he can get that much, unless I'm missing something?

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Quirrell

People are thinking this is OG Harry Potter's Voldemort. It's not. This is, in a nutshell, 'what if GameFAQS Voldemort was canon and made optimal decisions in every possible way'. Meisnewbie can probably explain better as I haven't read Methods of Rationality in a long-ass time, but there's no reason Quirrell couldn't just turn her body into a lawn chair, for example. He has every reason to control the terms of engagement, what with having the ability to turn invisible, scry, etc. etc. etc.

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KamikazePotato posted...

I remember back in the days when Trick Attack was 10% instead of 5%, and Ninja also regenerate Stamina for a party member, and reduce aggro on a party member, and increase aggro on a party member, and apply slashing debuff, all while having DPS only beaten out by Samurai and Black Mage. Those were the days.

Although I honestly just miss the old way Mudras work. Having them be on a GCD feels clunky, even though I understand the class used to be literally unplayable for people with poor ping.

It's not just that it was unplayable if your ping was bad, it also felt bad in general because literally all your potencies were garbage after the shadowbringers adjustments. The 'Trick tax' was very real. By contrast, NIN potencies are at their highest point ever now that Trick's been adjusted, and they even have one of the most satisfying buttons to press in the entire game in Hyosho Ranryu imo. There's no beating the fun of a skill that does 200k damage if you get the crit + direct hit with it in terms of satisfaction. NIN was probably stronger in Stormblood, but having better personal highs is probably a fair trade for that power.

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SCH was also broken stupid good in Stormblood and now it's not

players whine when you nerf their OP shit so it's very unsurprising SCH is less liked now (and it's also kinda boring too)

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that gunbreaker satisfaction ranking speaks to me

The class really is 100% made up of people who thought Squall was an absolute badass and love how well it imitates him and Seifer huh

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I main Gunbreaker, which is insanely fun. Leveling Ninja on the side right now, and I've got Warrior (my original class before I reached GNB), Red Mage and Dancer at 80.

EDIT:

I looked up some recent Class Satisfaction rankings and Monk was dead last. I guess most people don't like positionals?

Monk's problem isn't positionals. It's that its core mechanic is trash, slow to raise and punishing to lose. Nobody likes Greased Lightning, which is why YoshiP has confirmed a remake is coming for it, likely on 5.4.

(To expand on the above, put it this way: look up the level 80 abilities Ninja, Samurai and Dragoon get on the job guide. Then go look at what Monk gets. Greased Lightning has badly held back the class for literally seven years, and at this point people have given up on monk because it's so much work for so little reward.)

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redrocket posted...

Superhero means next to nothing on its own. Thats pretty much on par with saying DBZ characters can beat anyone because they are stronger than gods.

I mean, superheroes range from the likes of Daredevil up to Superman.

Would you prefer it if I said 'Squall can't beat an archetypical superhero, of the sort that immediately comes to mind when you consider its platonic ideal, who also has a purple dildo and dubstep gun'? I feel the idea behind it was abundantly clear.

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Squall takes on huge mechs, can fight his way out of a timestop without breaking a sweat, and can spam his ultimate techniques on a dime.

The Boss.

All of the above is not enough to take on a superhero. Next.

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IIRC TARDIS Doc was Ed Bellis, I think. Possibly Mumei

Mine was Elemental Sun of Nothing GANON going rampant on the bracket

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NFUN posted...

Obnoxious gimmicks such as including: the character's literal power.

I asked for help with tiering and bracketeering multiple times over years and got none. You can fuck right off with those complaints

You shouldn't need that much help to host this project though. I personally researched every single character who went into my own MPFC and arranged the matches to provide maximum entertainment, in the span of a couple weeks. That project was bad, but god knows it was not because I did not do decent bracket arrangements.

EDIT: Forgot that this included detail bios for every character as well. It's definitely not that complex to investigate stuff.

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John Egbert

Someone who keeps up with a canonical universe buster is far beyond the scope of Genos. At the simplest level, that's really all you need to know.

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NFUN posted...

He recovered quickly and he was trying to protect somebody by knocking it away. If he blasted the Blob with fire and it did nothing like we've been assuming, then he'd stop and thing instead of randomly, pointless blasting more magic into it

And for the record, that section makes a "The Blob" reference, so he has canonically seen the movie

Quick recovery is irrelevant if you don't get time to rest, and I've said that I expect him to notice his spells aren't working but mix it up too late. When you have like six spells you can cast in a short timespan and four elements to cycle through (five, really, if we count Soulfire), your margin of error is kinda low.

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ZeeksFire posted...

That is not exactly true kanzaris, and you know it. That was five or six spells, casting it through a conduit over moving water through a projection he was also having to hold together at the same time, while his physical body was continuously moving further away from said projection, and having to keep it stable to trick his opponent to fight said projection and not detonate the boat he was on (while also having a minor magical cold with conjuritis.) Also more often than not, his normal magic has been ice rather than fire ever since since Cold Days, since he has a natural advantage on ice, that his magic won't let him slip on said ice. Not that he dislikes his fire, but given a reason, he'd rather use ice now... which i think might be part of a sublimininal force from the mantle of Winter.

I was talking about his fight with the hounds, actually. There's a direct quote about it in the text, even. It's why I'm so unimpressed by his spellcasting endurance.

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OK, so lore bomb time. I know BOTH of these characters like the back of my hand. Did you know The Blob has actually shown up more than once in Simpsons canon? There's a comic book story where Sideshow Bob becomes one, and it shows off exactly how dangerous the thing is. When he goes after Bart and Lisa, nothing they come up with fazes him, at all. The only way they find to kill him is with brainfreeze shake coolant, and even then it takes distracting him by goading Bob into an entire music hall singing routine for the coolant to actually do its thing and slow him down long enough to set up a killshot. Why does this matter, you ask?

Because Dresden's spellcasting stamina is trash.

No, seriously. As late as the latest book, which came out like a month ago if that, he gets winded after five or six spells. He has a lot of power, but absolutely not a lot of short term ability to leverage it, because he tends to hold nothing back. I don't doubt he could find out the Blob's weakness before he ran out of juice, certainly. I also absolutely do not give him credit to do so without getting too gassed to win, though. Winter magic is not his go-to.

The Blob

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Someone post that 'everyone in the world is pregnant' pic for Flash pls, it was an MPFC classic

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Drakeryn posted...

I don't think killing one's opponent is necessary for a win - knocking them out or incapacitating them would work.

This. Does Dregg have any immunity to conk-out? Because if not, this seems like an easy smash for He-Man.

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Luca.

He's way more tanky than Nemmy. I take him to legitimately beat the shit out of the latter and win by brute force.

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So here's where I stand right now: suppose Janet can summon say, an H-bomb, or even an antimatter bomb, which is probably the most dangerous thing on our earth. Would that even be enough to take down Hades? The dude takes on a super powerful divine mech and it just crumbles to pieces trying to take him down. He actually cleanly outlasts it, even. It takes Pit, who's an extremely capable combatant, having the support of three powerful gods plus the intervention of a fourth one decapitating Hades for him for him to have a chance at taking him down. I'm...not seeing how Janet can kill him, or contain him at all, really, even if we assume GameFAQS Janet is fully in play. Someone convince me this isn't a godstomp, please?

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