Lurker > OrangeWizard

Double-edged sword cuts both ways
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Love is not a victory march

MrPeppers posted...

Not all staff see it. Some departments have been decreased to skeleton crews, and some specialties flat-out don't treat COVID patients. Most surgery centers and surgical wings of the hospital have stopped elective (non-life saving) surgeries because ICUs need the ventilators/intubating personnel.

This is why the occasional surgeon/surgery team will have some comment about COVID not being that bad. Yeah of course the plastic surgeon who will never treat COVID and had all of his money-generating cases cancelled thinks we need to get back to normal.

Most hospitals have created COVID wings in order to minimize spread, so only a section of the hospital is relegated to COVID patients. Some floor nurses don't deal at all with COVID patients, and the nursing field does not have the same academic barrier to entry or intellectual rigor as that of physicians. Unfortunately, most nurses are (even sometimes encouraged through training) intuition-based and there is a very concrete "out of sight, out of mind" approach to their care. So if they're on a med-surg floor and they don't have to rotate to the COVID wing, they don't see COVID and are convinced it's overblown or a lie.

And don't get me started about administration. They just want everything and everyone back to normal to generate money for them. Fuck them.

Thank you.

I would have thought that people would have to, I don't know, wade through bodies in order to get to their wing of the hospital, so that they would at least have to see it, but I guess not.

I got lost inside a hospital once, and had to walk past a crying family several times.
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Love is not a victory march

Ruvan22 posted...

Wait I thought you were arguing that most of the blame was on hospital management for not creating extra beds and nurses prepandemic?

Yes. I don't what this has to do with the question of "why aren't hospital staff getting the vaccine"?
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Love is not a victory march

matteus70 posted...

This is what people think a pandemic is when they hear about it.

If they don't see that they think everything is hunky-dory when it actually isn't.

This image is, presumably, what the hospital staff sees, right?

They're seeing people dying from covid, and lines out the door. They know who's unvaccinated and who isn't, and what the difference is. It can be said that they see the reality of the situation more than any of us.

So why are some staff still hesitant? They should be first in line, right?
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Love is not a victory march

CADE FOSTER posted...

why havent tthey been aressted

Probably because of the 1st amendment.
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Love is not a victory march

Ruvan22 posted...

Earlier you were saying we shouldn't believe other news media either...

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in believing that Project Veritas is guilty of selective editing, but mainstream media isn't.
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Love is not a victory march

pegusus123456 posted...

Even if it isn't outright bullshit which is exclusively what Veritas peddles

One of their other videos led to an arrest:

https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/ag-paxton-san-antonio-election-fraudster-arrested-widespread-vote-harvesting-and-fraud

https://www.expressnews.com/news/local/article/San-Antonio-woman-accused-of-election-fraud-gave-15994192.php

And another video led to 3, according to Wikipedia:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/meetings-of-activists-planning-to-disrupt-inauguration-were-infiltrated-by-conservative-media-group/2017/01/24/b22128fe-e19a-11e6-ba11-63c4b4fb5a63_story.html

Ruvan22 posted...

The fact that you are arguing the credibility of Veritas?

Would the above happen if they weren't credible?

Regardless, I'm not so much arguing that Veritas is credible, as I am pointing out how the arguments against them don't withstand scrutiny.
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Love is not a victory march

nfearurspecimn posted...

maybe you should question it

Who says I believe it?
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Love is not a victory march

Zero_Destroyer posted...

Okay, so the argument here is that one person is unaware research exists, the second one believes it hasn't been published, and the third believes the vaccine is fake for ???? reasons.

What research has been unpublished?

I dunno, I'm just explaining the contents of the video.
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Love is not a victory march

Zero_Destroyer posted...

That wasn't the argument, the argument was that he's untrustworthy because he has been legally reprimanded for engaging in deceptive video making practices under the guise of journalism.

Has he? All I've seen is the $100K settlement. Settlements aren't punitive damages ordered by a judge, they're agreements made by the concerned parties.

Do you have a link?
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Love is not a victory march

Zero_Destroyer posted...

But if we want the simplest point: Where is the evidence that the vaccines are what lead to these people having these health conditions? Where is the medical documentation absent anecdotes where you assume correlation = causation?

The nurse in the video asked that question to a doctor.

RN: "How come after 18 months, we haven't had any research? Isn't that fishy to you?"
ER Dr: "It's not that it hasn't been done. It hasn't been published. That's why."
2nd Dr: "It hasn't probably been done because the government doesn't want to show that the darn vaccine is full of ****"
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Love is not a victory march

MutantJohn posted...

Are the doctors in the video ID'd?

Yes.

Shezarr posted...

Sure is awfully suspicious when a 2005 account randomly starts posting far-right drivel in 2021 after never having posted on this board before June.

Yeah, I usually avoid CE, since it's just nonsense and trolls most of the time.

Zeeak4444 posted...

off label marketing is bad but its a far cry from why youre suggesting it is.

I'm not suggesting anything, just stating that Pfizer paid the largest punitive fine in history, in response to the argument that "fines mean people are untrustworthy!"

Zero_Destroyer posted...

You might have something resembling a point if Pfizer was the only available vaccine, but it isn't

The point is that Pfizer clearly isn't seen as untrustworthy after having had to pay fines, so therefore, why should fines mean that O'Keefe is untrustworthy?

I gaurantee you this "whistleblower" will turn out to not be who they say they are

Okay, see you in the hypothetical future.
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Love is not a victory march

Zero_Destroyer posted...

James O'Keefe has quite literally been forced to pay fines for doing this

And Pfizer paid the largest criminal fine in history.

https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/criminal-defense/pfizer-hit-with-largest-criminal-fine-in-us-history/

So?
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Love is not a victory march

metallica846 posted...

Uncovered by hidden camera aka selectively chopped and edited garbage.

I forgot, we can only trust the professionally chopped and edited garbage that comes from the mainstream media.
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Love is not a victory march

nfearurspecimn posted...

lets see, 3 deaths vs almost 700k deaths hmm

3 that had to be uncovered by hidden camera because they're not reporting them.

"They are not reporting" - ER doctor captured on hidden camera.

And other fun quotes like "How many have you seen that have gotten vaccinated here..." "That got sick? Side-effects? A lot"
"So I'm like who's writing the VAERS report?" "Nobody, because it takes over an half an hour to write the damn thing"
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Love is not a victory march

Some federal employee nurse with a hidden camera getting doctors and other nurses to talk candidly about adverse effects, and how they aren't being reported. One with congestive heart failure. One an otherwise-healthy 15-year-old with blood clots. Another who never wanted to take it, but did when her job was threatened, and then died.

Part 1 of 2.
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Love is not a victory march

This doesn't "represent violence".
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Love is not a victory march

Rexdragon125 posted...

Covid is the 3rd leading cause of death in the US, and was #1 by a wide margin earlier this year

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid-19-continues-to-be-a-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s-in-august-2021/

You're just parroting routinely spanked republican propaganda

Both things can be true.

Statistics show who's dying and who isn't.
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Love is not a victory march

DuranOfForcena posted...

oh did he? i missed it, it must have gotten moderated before i saw it

No, it's right there in post 93. It's the link and the quote at the top.

metallica846 posted...

If you want, you can walk in to a Walgreens or CVS today and get a 3rd dose. All you have to do is say youre immunocompromised and youll get one.

Oh, I didn't realize that the immunocompromised could get 3 shots.

I thought they couldn't get ANY shots. I always heard the argument "what about the immunocompromised?!" in response to people who refuse to wear masks or get vaccinated.
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Love is not a victory march

DuranOfForcena posted...

what the fuck are you on about, what is this bullshit you are spouting?

He means male children, and he gave evidence for that already.
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Love is not a victory march

ZeroRaider posted...

I've received three doses of the mRNA vaccines

What places allow that? Were you part of a clinical trail, or did you use the "first dose" tactic you mentioned earlier?

Or did you mean "two"?
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Love is not a victory march

Trumble posted...

That's the issue - a lot of it wasn't publicly-viewable. Everything that was publicly-viewable, is still there - the public stuff was generally things that'd fall under Disruptive Posting here, so didn't particularly need to be removed per se.

Then reveal what isn't publicly-viewable to your users. Do you give your users an expectation of privacy regarding the things they put on the site? If not, lay it all out. Dish the PMs or whatever.
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Love is not a victory march

On some forums, every publicly-viewable action that receives a warning gets that warning permanently appended to that post, so that everyone can see "this is rule-breaking content!"

Transparency is the best way to go.

Otherwise it's your word against his.
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Love is not a victory march

As a black man, I would find it funny if a white guy painted his face black for comedic purposes. I don't think it's necessarily racist.

It's okay to play pretend, it's okay to act a character, and it's even okay if that character you're acting is stereotypical. Voice actors do it all the time.

People have become so quick to cry "racist" that the word has been watered down.
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Love is not a victory march

scar the 1 posted...

I don't want you hanged but honestly it sounds bad to be assisting Nazi doctors man

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Love is not a victory march

Turbam posted...

You got any other source than fox news?

There's the Rolling Stone source itself, which has an "update":

"Update: One hospital has denied Dr. Jason McElyeas claim that ivermectin overdoses are causing emergency room backlogs and delays in medical care in rural Oklahoma, and Rolling Stone has been unable to independently verify any such cases as of the time of this update."

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/gunshot-victims-horse-dewormer-ivermectin-oklahoma-hospitals-covid-1220608/

The "one hospital" they are referring to responded directly to the article here, denying that they treated ANY patients for ivermectin complications or overdose, and didn't need to turn away ANY patients seeking emergency care.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-e32pQWYAMhuoB?format=png&name=small

Here's a "fact check" article summarizing it:

https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2021/09/fact-check-doctors-comments-about-ivermectin-and-hospital-backups-were-not-reported-as-stated.html
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Love is not a victory march

Kami_no_Kami posted...

Wasn't that proven to be a hoax?

https://www.foxnews.com/media/rolling-stone-forced-issue-update-after-viral-hospital-ivermectin-story-false
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Love is not a victory march

AssultTank posted...

There is nothing that having better hospital management could do when they literally don't have space in the hospital for more patients

Are we talking about physical space, and physical ICU beds?
Or are we talking about having staff available to care for patients?

Because my argument has been, better hospital management = more staff = more beds.
As was said, there already was a nursing shortage prior to the pandemic.
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Love is not a victory march

Citrik posted...

I'm really struggling to understand exactly how you're equating problems that every workplace experiences to it being some sort of catalyst for the current predicament that health care centers across the country are experiencing.

Because the mod I was discussing this with called it "the straw that broke the camel's back". An individual straw does not weigh much.

Citrik posted...

It's not about me having the final word.

That was directed toward the mod I was talking with, unless you're his alt.

*checks both your signatures*
Ah, okay, I guess you are. Sorry for taking away your last word, I thought you were someone else.

Citrik posted...

We have 93 COVID patients in our hospital as of this morning. 99% of them are unvaccinated. Those stories about people asking for the vaccine when they're on their deathbed...it's real.

A tangentially related anecdote: Where I live, less than 40% are fully vaccinated. When I was admitted to the hospital for a sports injury 2 months ago, they didn't test me or even ask me if I wanted the vaccine, though everyone was wearing masks. I was wondering, if everyone was so concerned about eradicating the virus, why wouldn't they want me vaccinated, or be concerned about my possible asymptomatic spread?

I guess where I live, we don't care.

The last local news article about it said that we had 15 ICU beds, but that only 3 of them were taken by COVID patients, so I guess we're doing alright.
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Love is not a victory march

Darmik posted...

Not really? Health systems aren't designed for so many people to get sick at once. We have been warned about this for over a year now. It's happening everywhere.

I wasn't the one who said that there was a nursing shortage even before the pandemic. If there's a nursing shortage that also means that there's a bed shortage, no?
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Love is not a victory march

RenescoStCewl posted...

Mismanagement isn't filling up all the hospital beds. Dumb fucking antivaxers are.

Mismanagement is why there are so few hospital beds to begin with.
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Love is not a victory march

Valjackal posted...

A lot of things can contribute to burnout. Bad management. Pay. Culture. Each of these had always and will always be a thing. My point is, regardless of these things, the overarching theme here is that there is a massive surge of unvaccinated patients overwhelming hospitals and healthcare workers

And my point is, because of those things you mentioned, hospitals were left unprepared for the massive surge of unvaccinated patients.

If they would have had good management, proper pay, a better culture, I wonder if hospitals would still be overwhelmed? I don't know enough to say for certain, but based on the initial reasons given for why there is a nursing shortage in the first place, and you saying that the shortage existed before the pandemic just now, I doubt it.

I don't think there's anything more either one of us can say to convince the other. I'll let you have the final word if you wish. Either way, thank you for the discussion.
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Love is not a victory march

Deuceswild posted...

Both are issues that aren't mutually exclusive and can be dealt with simultaneously.

I agree.

But, according to Valjackal, they both contribute to burnout.

Deuceswild posted...

Not sure which is the tougher problem to deal with

Me neither, but I'm not concerned with which is the "tougher" problem, but which problem contributes MORE to burnout.
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Love is not a victory march

DezDroppedFreak posted...

And your assumption for 90% of resources being taken up from mismanagement and the unvaccinated is an insignificant portion is based on, what, exactly?

The numbers are arbitrary.
What's important are the premises that:

1. Mismanagement takes away more resources than the unvaccinated do
2. The unvaccinated take away more resources than the vaccinated do.

Do you disagree with these premises?

ScazarMeltex posted...

Jesus Christ, shut the fuck up.

I'll just block you so then you won't have to see my posts.
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Love is not a victory march

DezDroppedFreak posted...

Well for starters what are you basing your numbers on for your example

Nothing. It's a simple thought experiment of a hospital that's over capacity. It assumes that mismanagement takes away more resources than the unvaccinated does, and that the unvaccinated take away more resources than the vaccinated do. Do you disagree with these assumptions?

Valjackal posted...

Because the fact of the matter is, people are burnt out over COVID.

You yourself said that "This latest completely preventable surge is the straw that broke the camel's back."

To me, the expression "straw that broke the camel's back", means that the "last straw" is relatively insignificant compared to the mountain of stuff underneath it. When I picture a "straw", I picture a single stalk of wheat.

So to blame the breaking of the camel's back on a single stalk of wheat is ridiculous. It should be blamed on the total weight of all the objects.

I don't think it's accurate to say that people are burnt out over COVID. They are burnt out over the sum total of the burden on them. COVID is, as you said, a "straw" that just happened to be placed on top.

Valjackal posted...

People are blaming the unvaccinated because there was a campfire that exploded into a forest fire. All that needed to happen was for everyone to put their fires out.

To use a fire analogy, firefighters do preventative controlled burns in order to clear away the accumulated dead growth that can make fires, when they do happen, more severe. If they neglect this task, then they share some of the blame when things get out of hand.

You yourself also said "It doesn't have to be one or the other", so why, now, are you insisting that the blame cannot be distributed?
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Love is not a victory march

shockthemonkey posted...

What a fucking stupid load of shit

I'm here for discussion, so I would appreciate hearing why you disagree with me.
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Love is not a victory march

Valjackal posted...

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

It doesn't have to, but that seems to be how public opinion sees it. For instance, I've only heard "the unvaccinated are to blame!"
The media and public opinion work on black-and-white thinking.

Valjackal posted...

When an influx of patients come in with blatant disregard for a worldwide health pandemic, they absolutely can and will get the blame. Opinions on leadership are subjective. This surge of unvaccinated people taking resources is not.

That still doesn't seem right to me.

We've all seen that comic featuring a fat-cat character scooping away bags full of money, handing a dollar to a blue-collar worker, and then pointing to the immigrant and saying "He's trying to take your dollar!" in order to pit one against the other. This seems kind of like that.

Or it's like companies who contribute the vast majority of pollutants saying "bike to work instead of driving!" while they damage the earth more each year than you ever could in your lifetime.

If there were 100 units of 'resource', but mismanagement costs 90 of those units, and the unvaccinated take another 9, while the vaccinated normally take 2, sure, you can accurately blame the unvaccinated for taking more of their fair share. But everyone would have enough if it weren't for mismanagement. That, to me, seems like the true problem, and blaming the unvaccinated seems silly.
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Love is not a victory march

Woozul posted...

traveling as in traveling nursing

the pay is a lot more so its more worth it if you're going to have to risk your life for work

Oh, neat.

Valjackal posted...

Depends on how disgruntled they are with their current leadership. Compared to the other major hospital down the road from us, our administration has been pretty trash with regards to taking care of their employees.

So it seems that there are deeper problems, and that blaming it on "the unvaccinated" is a distraction. The more you blame it on them, the less you blame it on the hospital administration, which makes the administration happy.

Why are hospitals allowed to get away with bad management that creates disgruntled employees? Isn't this costing lives? Isn't keeping hospitals from collapsing one of the top priorities, and one of the main reasons behind masks, distancing, quarantines, etc? At what point should (or ought) someone step in?
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Love is not a victory march

Valjackal posted...

Burnout, mostly. They've been at this shit for a year and a half. Some are leaving careers they've had for years for other hospitals, or to be travelers. Some are leaving healthcare altogether. This latest completely preventable surge is the straw that broke the camel's back.

If they're leaving to travel or leaving healthcare, okay.

But why would they just go to another hospital if they're burned out? Wouldn't they have to deal with the same type of stuff?
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Love is not a victory march

DarkRoast posted...

there's a RIDICULOUS nursing shortage that keeps getting worse

Why is there a nursing shortage?
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Love is not a victory march

Why is there a shortage of nurses?
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Love is not a victory march

dave_is_slick posted...

That's what you'd like to be true but luckily it's not. Face it, all of you moronic "reasons" have crumbled all around you and everyone is laughing at you because of it.

Oh, are you disagreeing with the ER doctor that I quoted?
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Love is not a victory march

Feline_Heart posted...

Not hanging around messed up people isnt cult behavior

Cults never say that their behavior is "cult behavior".
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Love is not a victory march

Smackems posted...

Keep deez nuts

Some people say one side is in a cult.
And then the other side tries to convince others to break with their friends who don't share the same ideas.
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Love is not a victory march

Trumble posted...

Found (a repost of) it.

https://www.boredpanda.com/religious-people-converting-rejection-brainwashing-technique/

Found a link to what I assume is the original.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-get-angry-when-I-try-to-share-the-word-of-God-with-them-I-only-do-it-because-I-care-about-them-deeply-and-don-t-want-them-to-end-up-in-hell-I-feel-like-some-people-avoid-me-because-of-this-Is-there-any/answer/Doug-Robertson-3

The person's qualifications, as seen here, don't seem to make him an expert in anything related.
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Love is not a victory march