LogFAQs > #964383899

Gwynevere posted...

It is when the original implication is that free speech and freedom of religion are universal western values. While we do have those things written into the constitution, you're either blind or a liar if you claim that those values are consistently upheld. For many years in the US, and to a lesser degree today, stepping outside the cultural norms would get you ostracized or worse. Anyone not Christian was a godless heathen, being black or gay would get you barred from employment, assaulted, arrested, or killed. Hell, just speaking up against the war in Iraq during the post 9/11 fervor put a target on your back. Just because we have freedom of speech and religion on paper, does not mean the people participating in society don't desire conformity to the norm.

I'm not claiming that those values are consistently upheld by everyone in our society. But they are written into the Constitution and legally respected. As bluecheck libs on Twitter love to constantly remind everyone, private entities do not have to respect your freedom of speech; however, the government does. And freedom of speech is one of the freedoms that's been most strongly upheld and respected by the courts since the founding of the United States, with the exception of a few very short periods (the Civil War and WWI come to mind) where it took some damage before being restored.

Also, as someone who openly opposed the War in Iraq as a teenager and caught hell for it at school, I don't need you to remind me about it.

Gwynevere posted...

As for your insane ramblings about certain religions being incompatible with free speech and religion,

That's not what I said. Reread it:

AssassinFox posted...

And sorry, but certain religious values [emphasis added] are incompatible with freedom of speech, expression, and religion. That's why Western democratic governments are overwhelmingly de facto or de jure secular and why religious fundamentalists [emphasis added] (whether they're Christians, Muslims, or believers in some other faith) seek to attack the division between church and state whenever they can.

I'm saying that certain religious values, the ones fundamentalists hold most dear, are incompatible with freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Moderate Christians and Muslims frequently downplay or completely ignore the parts of their scriptures and tenets of their faith that conflict with their personal consciences and the laws and value systems of the societies in which they live. They're neither intellectually honest nor consistent regarding their faiths, but they're willing to revise their beliefs and practices in order to avoid conflicts between their religion and society. Fundamentalists are generally unwilling to do so.