Poll of the Day > I don't see the problem with not many women going into STEM fields.

(+) Yeah! (+)

It's not like they're being forced to major in other fields, they just don't want to go into STEM.
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I hope you don't work for Google.
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Are you "mansplaining" LMAO.

A large part of the point that fired Google engineer was making is how you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can keep shouting buzzwords like "diversity" from the rooftops as loudly as you like and stifle any reasonable discussion on the issue, but it doesn't change the fact that "patriarchy" isn't the main or only issue there at all.
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Are you trying to promote manarchy?

Its because Gender roles, as long as gender roles are not removed they will still ignore STEM fields, you cannoy easly change what you have grown acostumed to
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

A large part of the point that fired Google engineer was making is how you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can keep shouting buzzwords like "diversity" from the rooftops as loudly as you like and stifle any reasonable discussion on the issue, but it doesn't change the fact that "patriarchy" isn't the main or only issue there at all.

The guy wasn't wrong in theory, but anyone who has worked in an office will tell you it is best to just roll your eyes and keep your mouth shut. The only thing that is going to happen if you speak up is you are going to get fired or have to take a bunch of BS "Sensitivity Training" classes.

That said, I have seen it first hand. My little cousin used to ace every Science and Math class she ever took, loved Technology and the stuff I do for a living, and we thought she would become a Marine Biologist or a Software Engineer.

She graduates high school next year and is going to nursing school. Not a bad career choice, but odd considering what her interests are.
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Dikitain posted...

The guy wasn't wrong in theory, but anyone who has worked in an office will tell you it is best to just roll your eyes and keep your mouth shut. The only thing that is going to happen if you speak up is you are going to get fired or have to take a bunch of BS "Sensitivity Training" classes.

So Sad but fucking true

One major accounting company is actually scraping their diversity marketing gimmick (which is piss poor when looking at who they're hiring) and creating a... get this... Inclusive Committee
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Dikitain posted...

WhiskeyDisk posted...

A large part of the point that fired Google engineer was making is how you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can keep shouting buzzwords like "diversity" from the rooftops as loudly as you like and stifle any reasonable discussion on the issue, but it doesn't change the fact that "patriarchy" isn't the main or only issue there at all.

The guy wasn't wrong in theory, but anyone who has worked in an office will tell you it is best to just roll your eyes and keep your mouth shut. The only thing that is going to happen if you speak up is you are going to get fired or have to take a bunch of BS "Sensitivity Training" classes.

That said, I have seen it first hand. My little cousin used to ace every Science and Math class she ever took, loved Technology and the stuff I do for a living, and we thought she would become a Marine Biologist or a Software Engineer.

She graduates high school next year and is going to nursing school. Not a bad career choice, but odd considering what her interests are.

Have you asked her why she chose that route instead of STEM?

I'll be honest, it's not the fault of men that women don't pursue STEM fields.
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If we don't get more girls in stem I'm never going to get laid.

Scientist virginity is a huge issue. For me at least.

From what I understand from people in the engineering community (which most of you aren't part of, let's be real), the issue with what the dude said is that he basically created a hostile work environment, and anybody who would be in charge of assigning him would now have difficulty with doing just that. Keep in mind also that he was a fairly low-ranking engineer, so he was never really calling the shots in the first place. You can say whatever you want in private but he put it up as an internal company memo.
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XlaxJynx007 posted...

Dikitain posted...

WhiskeyDisk posted...

A large part of the point that fired Google engineer was making is how you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can keep shouting buzzwords like "diversity" from the rooftops as loudly as you like and stifle any reasonable discussion on the issue, but it doesn't change the fact that "patriarchy" isn't the main or only issue there at all.

The guy wasn't wrong in theory, but anyone who has worked in an office will tell you it is best to just roll your eyes and keep your mouth shut. The only thing that is going to happen if you speak up is you are going to get fired or have to take a bunch of BS "Sensitivity Training" classes.

That said, I have seen it first hand. My little cousin used to ace every Science and Math class she ever took, loved Technology and the stuff I do for a living, and we thought she would become a Marine Biologist or a Software Engineer.

She graduates high school next year and is going to nursing school. Not a bad career choice, but odd considering what her interests are.

Have you asked her why she chose that route instead of STEM?

I'll be honest, it's not the fault of men that women don't pursue STEM fields.

She feels she can help more people in nursing then any other field. I mean, she is right, but I look at it as I would rather do something more coinciding with my interests rather then something where I would help the most people. That is probably where the gender differences come into play.
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Kana posted...

From what I understand from people in the engineering community (which most of you aren't part of, let's be real), the issue with what the dude said is that he basically created a hostile work environment, and anybody who would be in charge of assigning him would now have difficulty with doing just that. Keep in mind also that he was a fairly low-ranking engineer, so he was never really calling the shots in the first place. You can say whatever you want in private but he put it up as an internal company memo.

if an engineer's job in the first place is to take a look at a problem and find a solution, how is an examination of said problem "creating a hostile work environment" in the first place? if i find a bug in someone's code and edit that to make the code work, did i "create a hostile work environment" and devalue the engineer that wrote bad code's worth as a person? no i was just doing my job. why then do we take interpersonal issues and put so much more weight upon them that anyone that doesn't regurgitate HR's buzzwords by rote is to be shouted down, re-educated, or just plain run out of town on a rail? if anything, this kind of batshit lunacy seems more counter-productive than not. i don't ask a car engine how its feeling when it needs an oil change.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Kana posted...

From what I understand from people in the engineering community (which most of you aren't part of, let's be real), the issue with what the dude said is that he basically created a hostile work environment, and anybody who would be in charge of assigning him would now have difficulty with doing just that. Keep in mind also that he was a fairly low-ranking engineer, so he was never really calling the shots in the first place. You can say whatever you want in private but he put it up as an internal company memo.

if an engineer's job in the first place is to take a look at a problem and find a solution, how is an examination of said problem "creating a hostile work environment" in the first place? if i find a bug in someone's code and edit that to make the code work, did i "create a hostile work environment" and devalue the engineer that wrote bad code's worth as a person? no i was just doing my job. why then do we take interpersonal issues and put so much more weight upon them that anyone that doesn't regurgitate HR's buzzwords by rote is to be shouted down, re-educated, or just plain run out of town on a rail? if anything, this kind of batshit lunacy seems more counter-productive than not. i don't ask a car engine how its feeling when it needs an oil change.

It is also worth noting that the people who made the decision of firing him were management and HR, not actual Engineers.

But again, keep your mouth shut because being a voice just leads to bad things.
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women don't like engineering because they can't deal with hardship and the amount of non homework reading that has to be done.

you can't just take a STEM class and read only one book, the book doesn't even explain everything once you get to section II, it's like this in every STEM class, they require multiple textbooks and all of your time

unless you're a teacher jobs in that feild aren't very much fun and don't pay that much anyway as opposed to a nurse who does basically nothing all day except stand around for 12-16 hours

a woman who gets straight A's, takes a chemistry I class and gets a C+ is going to drop that major then and there
a woman who checks her cell phone or face book periodically can't take stem
they need people who can get their balls busted and keep going, it's about business not education, you think being smart in this world rewards you more then being greedy or working 24/7?

people get good grades in STEM because they study 24/7, which is why it's filled with foreigners
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RoboXgp89 posted...

women don't like engineering because they can't deal with hardship and the amount of non homework reading that has to be done. you can't just take a STEM class and read only one book, the book doesn't even explain everything once you get to section II, it's like this in every STEM class, they require multiple textbooks and all of your time

Lmao what the actual fuck are you talking about
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

A large part of the point that fired Google engineer was making is how you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can keep shouting buzzwords like "diversity" from the rooftops as loudly as you like and stifle any reasonable discussion on the issue, but it doesn't change the fact that "patriarchy" isn't the main or only issue there at all.

/Thread
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I'm just saying to get into STEM you have to enjoy reading that stuff and doing it constantly

you can't just read a STEM book assigned to you and expect to get an A
you have to do all this other stuff like talking to tutors, teachers, reading more books etc.
most stem teachers have a book shelf/room filled with books

you aren't going to get the correct answers from reading one book, they don't cover everything even though they act like they do
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Lmao

Relating to the Google situation and fewer women in programming today

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding

That wasn't always the case. Keep in mind this article examined the situation years before this happened.
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Doctor Foxx posted...

Relating to the Google situation and fewer women in programming today

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding

That wasn't always the case. Keep in mind this article examined the situation years before this happened.

So the article mentions that there are many reasons for it, and while the reason it gives is a interesting one I think it kind of misses that everyone started using computers in 2000's, it wasn't just a thing that "boys" did anymore. Therefore, we should see that line going back up, but it doesn't. I went through computer science classes and can even confirm that the introductory classes are pretty close to split half and half with men and women. Fast forward a year or two though and you are lucky if you have more then one or two women in a class.

As sexist as it sounds the nature of the work is probably part of the reason, and there really isn't a way you are fixing that. Even correlating it to that graph, programming saw a major shift in the 80's from the procedural "follow the line" programming style to the Object Oriented and event driven style of today. Hell, one of the biggest programming languages that created that shift (C++) was released in 1983, one year before you saw that line starting to drop.
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Jen0125 posted...

RoboXgp89 posted...

women don't like engineering because they can't deal with hardship and the amount of non homework reading that has to be done. you can't just take a STEM class and read only one book, the book doesn't even explain everything once you get to section II, it's like this in every STEM class, they require multiple textbooks and all of your time

Lmao what the actual fuck are you talking about

And I fucking love how, after all that, his conclusion was that STEM is for foreigners.
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Dikitain posted...

So the article mentions that there are many reasons for it, and while the reason it gives is a interesting one I think it kind of misses that everyone started using computers in 2000's, it wasn't just a thing that "boys" did anymore.

Tech fields are still heavily marketed to men. Look at what happens when you point out that most gamers are women... They get called casuals and not really interested. Yet they're still the ones using the tech. It's a rather discouraging environment, and over time women drop out after feeling they don't fit in or aren't taken as seriously. The same is true of many STEM fields. They can be outright hostile to women in the working environments. I've met many women that completed STEM degrees and went back to school to do anything else rather than have that be their working life. My experience with engineering firms is that many are still good ol' boys clubs. Obviously not true everywhere, I was just a bit taken aback witnessing the behavior (particularly from the very old male engineers). Good on the people that tough it out and I can't fault anyone for not wanting to deal with that treatment forever.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

if i find a bug in someone's code and edit that to make the code work, did i "create a hostile work environment" and devalue the engineer that wrote bad code's worth as a person? no i was just doing my job. why then do we take interpersonal issues and put so much more weight upon them that anyone that doesn't regurgitate HR's buzzwords by rote is to be shouted down, re-educated, or just plain run out of town on a rail?

Because code can be rewritten. Personal characteristics cannot. "Your code would run faster if you took out that line" is constructive criticism. "You could type faster if you had an extra finger" is not, however true the statement might be. People are not problems to be solved. Treating them as though they are is horrible for motivation, which does more to hurt overall employee productivity than any amount of careful, heartless optimization might be able to offset.
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adjl posted...

"You could type faster if you had an extra finger" is not, however true the statement might be.

"You could write better code if you weren't, uhh, inherently disposed to caring for children or whatever"
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Why don't the encourage more women to work in coal mining, garbage collecting, offshore oil drilling, crab fishing, etc.
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RoboXgp89 posted...

I'm just saying to get into STEM you have to enjoy reading that stuff and doing it constantly

you can't just read a STEM book assigned to you and expect to get an A
you have to do all this other stuff like talking to tutors, teachers, reading more books etc.
most stem teachers have a book shelf/room filled with books

you aren't going to get the correct answers from reading one book, they don't cover everything even though they act like they do

so women don't enjoy reading? i'm so confused. where did you obtain this information?
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VeeVees posted...

Why don't the encourage more women to work in coal mining, garbage collecting, offshore oil drilling, crab fishing, etc.

Or handyman jobs like electrician, plumber, chemical engineers etc. Hell, in the next 10 or so years, we are going to experience a massive shortage of High Voltage Electricians in the US. Why aren't women applying for these positions?
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That guy has no idea what he's talking about. I graduated Cum Laude from a pretty well-regarded engineering school and pretty much never read the textbooks and rarely talked to teachers or TAs outside of class

VeeVees posted...

Why don't the encourage more women to work in coal mining, garbage collecting, offshore oil drilling, crab fishing, etc.

Mostly because that's not where the money is. The aim in effecting a cultural shift around STEM is to help correct gendered income inequality, since STEM fields generally have higher incomes. Gotta start somewhere, after all. Some of that cultural shift will also trickle down to other fields.

There is also the point that STEM tends to be fairly centralized, by comparison. There are a lot of big corporations that can push for change and have a huge impact in the field. In contrast, fishing or mining tends to happen on a smaller, community-by-community basis. It's very difficult to change the culture of small communities as an outsider, and even if you do pull it off, that's only one of thousands of such communities you've changed. From a basic practical standpoint, you're going to see more success going after larger, more interconnected fields first.
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VeeVees posted...

Why don't the encourage more women to work in coal mining, garbage collecting, offshore oil drilling, crab fishing, etc.

Because those jobs suck. Who would fight for those?
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but equality
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Lightning Bolt posted...

VeeVees posted...

Why don't the encourage more women to work in coal mining, garbage collecting, offshore oil drilling, crab fishing, etc.

Because those jobs suck. Who would fight for those?

Point being, the number of female engineers doctors and the like is too low, but the number of plumbers, sanitation workers and miners is just a-ok. I guess some types of equality are more equal than others...
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Ideally, if some people are suffering more than others, equality would mean making them suffer less, not making everyone else suffer more. Men may take more crappy industrial jobs than women, and therefore find work less pleasant overall, but pushing women into jobs that they also hate isn't solving that problem, it's just making everyone equally miserable. If you want to solve the problem, come up with a way to make those jobs suck less (which will also work to even out the gender disparity if you take away the cultural factors that currently keep women out of the fields), rather than insisting that everybody start partaking of their suckitude.
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A friend of mine was shamed out of being a male nurse when he was in college.

I don't see anyone up in arms about that.
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Smarkil posted...

A friend of mine was shamed out of being a male nurse when he was in college.

I don't see anyone up in arms about that.

Then get up in arms about it. "Oh yeah? Well, men get shamed out of fields they like too!" doesn't make it okay that women are shamed out of fields they like. Both of those things suck. You can be outraged over multiple things, particularly when those multiple things all fall under the umbrella of "we're unnecessarily gendering careers and that's bad."
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I feel like I've read a few different things about trying to encourage men to get into nursing. From what I hear it's a great career too.

Doctor Foxx posted...

Dikitain posted...

So the article mentions that there are many reasons for it, and while the reason it gives is a interesting one I think it kind of misses that everyone started using computers in 2000's, it wasn't just a thing that "boys" did anymore.

Tech fields are still heavily marketed to men. Look at what happens when you point out that most gamers are women... They get called casuals and not really interested. Yet they're still the ones using the tech. It's a rather discouraging environment, and over time women drop out after feeling they don't fit in or aren't taken as seriously. The same is true of many STEM fields. They can be outright hostile to women in the working environments. I've met many women that completed STEM degrees and went back to school to do anything else rather than have that be their working life. My experience with engineering firms is that many are still good ol' boys clubs. Obviously not true everywhere, I was just a bit taken aback witnessing the behavior (particularly from the very old male engineers). Good on the people that tough it out and I can't fault anyone for not wanting to deal with that treatment forever.

It would be interested to see what you consider to be "boys club" behaviors because in my experience most of them are traditional office jobs (which if they weren't STEM would primarily be dominated by women). If anything, the "boys club" stuff was more common in the 60's and 70's, and stared phasing out once Computer Science went from a hobbyist field to something more professional. If anything, STEM fields are very welcoming of women when they show up. Most of our management tends to be women who started as grunts and worked their way up. The key though is "when", as in you honestly don't see very many showing up. My office has 3 developers who are women and 2 who are managers, compared to 50 male developers and 1 male manager.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

but it doesn't change the fact that "patriarchy" isn't the main or only issue there at all.

But it's so easy to create a single giant, conspiratorial boogie man that's responsible for every problem in society. It's totally not a single cause fallacy or anything!

Dikitain posted...

The guy wasn't wrong in theory, but anyone who has worked in an office will tell you it is best to just roll your eyes and keep your mouth shut.

Also this though unfortunately. Screaming against corporate culture from the heavens is a great way to destroy your career in today's society. If he wants to be a martyr that's fine, but he's an idiot if he didn't know what he was getting into.

Doctor Foxx posted...

My experience with engineering firms is that many are still good ol' boys clubs.

It's weird, I keep hearing this but have never experienced it despite having worked for three separate engineering companies. I'm starting to think this used to be the case, but is incredibly overstated today.

Duck-I-Says posted...

Doctor Foxx posted...

My experience with engineering firms is that many are still good ol' boys clubs.

It's weird, I keep hearing this but have never experienced it despite having worked for three separate engineering companies. I'm starting to think this used to be the case, but is incredibly overstated today.

My experience was from 3 - 7 years ago and there were improvements made in that time as many of the old engineers retired. But it takes a long time to actually get people into those experienced positions. Your perspective and experience working under an old boys club will be vastly different if you're a male, you're not subject to the same treatment. Listen to the women in the industry.
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Doctor Foxx posted...

Listen to the women in the industry.

I do, my best friend along with other coworkers. Hell my current team has more women than men in it, if anything there's a (totally innocuous so I don't care) girls club given how much conversation and socializing I'm not a part of. But hey, I'm sure patronizing me for my gender and telling me I'm blind and don't listen is the best way to proceed. It's totally not exactly what you say the underlying problem is towards women or anything.

Doctor Foxx posted...

Duck-I-Says posted...

Doctor Foxx posted...

My experience with engineering firms is that many are still good ol' boys clubs.

It's weird, I keep hearing this but have never experienced it despite having worked for three separate engineering companies. I'm starting to think this used to be the case, but is incredibly overstated today.

My experience was from 3 - 7 years ago and there were improvements made in that time as many of the old engineers retired. But it takes a long time to actually get people into those experienced positions. Your perspective and experience working under an old boys club will be vastly different if you're a male, you're not subject to the same treatment. Listen to the women in the industry.

When people say this it almost feels like reverse gender discrimination. "You don't understand because you aren't me. "

Well, then help me to understand. What is this behavior you are experiencing? I have worked in Software Engineering for 12 years, and before that I worked in a machine shop. The machine shop was definitely a boys club and was exemplified by the fact that in the 3 years I worked there, only two women every worked on the floor. Once was the owner's daughter, and the other was her best friend. Neither of them stuck around for more then a month or two. Conversely, I have worked at 2 different companies (one small and one large) and neither of them show any signs of being a "boys club".
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adjl posted...

Smarkil posted...

A friend of mine was shamed out of being a male nurse when he was in college.

I don't see anyone up in arms about that.

Then get up in arms about it. "Oh yeah? Well, men get shamed out of fields they like too!" doesn't make it okay that women are shamed out of fields they like. Both of those things suck. You can be outraged over multiple things, particularly when those multiple things all fall under the umbrella of "we're unnecessarily gendering careers and that's bad."

I'm not gonna get up in arms about it because I don't care.

But the point is that the debate is one sided. Let's not pretend like it isn't.
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I don't know anything about the Google guy. I made this topic because my Windows login screen gave me 2 statistics. One was the "Only [whatever]% of people in STEM fields are women" and one was "Only 0.4% of teen girls want to major in computer science". It was the second statistic that got me to make this topic, because I'm unclear on what anyone's supposed to do with it. Am I supposed to go to teen girls and tell them that what they want to do is wrong, and that they should go into computer science instead?
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I just don't understand why SJWs feel the need to force girls into fields they are not interested in. Hey, little girl, go study that nerdy shit that you don't like for "equality".
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Honestly if you find a room full of men too hostile to work in then you probably have some other issues you need to work out

Like, nerdy IT guys?
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I'm a man and I don't even want to talk to IT guys tbh

GanonsSpirit posted...

It was the second statistic that got me to make this topic, because I'm unclear on what anyone's supposed to do with it.

Question it, mostly. Ask what factors are involved in that disparity, because it's a pretty major disparity, and consider how it might be possible to fix it. A whole lot of people just throw up their hands and say "it's just a biological difference, nothing we can do!", but I'm far from convinced. Whatever biological influence there is can't really be changed, but the social and cultural factors absolutely can, and should be for the sake of ensuring equal opportunity for everyone.

Smarkil posted...

I'm not gonna get up in arms about it because I don't care.

But the point is that the debate is one sided. Let's not pretend like it isn't.

You don't really get to care that the debate is one-sided while not caring enough to support the other side. That's just lazy and dismissive. If you don't care, don't weigh in. If you weigh in, be prepared to care.

That, and calling it one-sided means you're fundamentally missing the point here, because it's the same side you're talking about. It's not men vs. women, as much as a great many people (men and women alike) like to think of it that way. It's about removing archaic gender expectations from careers where they don't belong. In most cases, it's going to be women that benefit from that, because history, but the same push can certainly be applied to male nurses, and ECE's, and beauticians, and any other traditionally-feminine field. Don't treat this as an us v.s them thing, everyone stands to benefit from new attitudes.
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Why is it something that needs to be "fixed"?
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