Current Events > If Library of Alexandria wasn't destroyed, how much more might we have advanced?

(+) Yeah! (+)

80/80

The Library of Alexandria was one of the largest and most significant libraries of the ancient world.[1] Famous for having been burned, thus resulting in the loss of many scrolls and books, it has become a symbol of "knowledge and culture destroyed".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Library_of_Alexandria
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We actually discussed that quite a few times in a class I took last semester.

Much of what survived from it was thanks to Arabic travelers copying/translating documents and preserving the copies.

we'd be like the Jetsons right now

There are two lost myths which I bet were contained within that library:

1) Hercules fighting Triton
2) the Amazons battling griffins

Both are depicted in pottery, yet neither concept is featured in any surviving documents.

We probably would've advanced like, two years.
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Who knows, Western advancement was more stopped at the time because the Romans were like "LOL science"
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Human civilization took like a thousand years break during the middle ages.
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Skye Reynolds posted...

There are two lost myths which I bet were contained within that library:

1) Hercules fighting Triton
2) the Amazons battling griffins

Both are depicted in pottery, yet neither concept is featured in any surviving documents.

Or maybe the Greeks had fanfiction too
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The Mongol conquest of Khwarezmia set us back as a species more.
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At least 150 years, but of course, the liberal SJWs back then got mad about all the information and censored it all by burning down the library.

Kinda like what they're doing now.
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Eh, probably not that much. The cultural setback is much larger.
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they probably had hovercar plans in there somewhere

also 1190-TIs

ancient greek anime and manga
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Dathrowed1 posted...

Who knows, Western advancement was more stopped at the time because the Romans were like "LOL science"

When did they do that? The Romans loved science it was their collapse that led to the lol science phase.

Zikten posted...

When did they do that? The Romans loved science it was their collapse that led to the lol science phase.

You're thinking of the Greeks and early Romans.

The Roman Empire declared Christianity its official religion in 380 AD, sacked the Library in 391, split in 395, fell to the Visigoths in 410, and ended in 476.

Their "lol science" phase started right before their fall. Wouldn't be surprised if that was the direct cause of it too.

LordFarquad1312 posted...

Human civilization took like a thousand years break during the middle ages.

Nope. Arab world was having a golden age of art, science, math, etc.. which ultimately led to the Italian renaissance.
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Zikten posted...

Dathrowed1 posted...

Who knows, Western advancement was more stopped at the time because the Romans were like "LOL science"

When did they do that? The Romans loved science it was their collapse that led to the lol science phase.

Also this. Rome had a fuck load of scientific and medical advancements before collapse. Including successful cataract surgery, and the first attempts at open heart and brain surgery. They also had syringes.
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Dathrowed1 posted...

Who knows, Western advancement was more stopped at the time because the Romans were like "LOL science"

Not even remotely true. Western Advancement stopped for a long period starting with the sack of Rome. And in fact, the Catholic Church was a major supporter of the continuation of the sciences. Coppernicus for instance was Church sponsored.
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Not much. There was basically know way to spread knowledge back then besides conquering nearby places. Things would be 'discovered' several times by several different places because they were just too distant to actually transmit knowledge. On top of that, governments of the time basically meant 'whoever is in charge owns everything', so it would be completely up to them whether any resources were spent utilizing said resources.

At best, you would have had whoever controlling Alexandria have a slight technological edge, but unless they also had the resources and man power to do something with it, they would see little practical application. We are spoiled in that we can instantly transmit any discovery around the globe for others to learn and build on, but it wasn't always like that.

Crazyman93 posted...

Dathrowed1 posted...

Who knows, Western advancement was more stopped at the time because the Romans were like "LOL science"

Not even remotely true. Western Advancement stopped for a long period starting with the sack of Rome. And in fact, the Catholic Church was a major supporter of the continuation of the sciences. Coppernicus for instance was Church sponsored.

*so long as you didn't try to question the church or it's teachings.
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Dash_Harber posted...

Not much. There was basically know way to spread knowledge back then besides conquering nearby places. Things would be 'discovered' several times by several different places because they were just too distant to actually transmit knowledge. On top of that, governments of the time basically meant 'whoever is in charge owns everything', so it would be completely up to them whether any resources were spent utilizing said resources.

At best, you would have had whoever controlling Alexandria have a slight technological edge, but unless they also had the resources and man power to do something with it, they would see little practical application. We are spoiled in that we can instantly transmit any discovery around the globe for others to learn and build on, but it wasn't always like that.

Trade with the Arab world is what lead to the Italian renaissance. No conquering or war involved there.
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Blue_Dream87 posted...

At least 150 years, but of course, the liberal SJWs back then got mad about all the information and censored it all by burning down the library.

Kinda like what they're doing now.

Oh the irony
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pres_madagascar posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Not much. There was basically know way to spread knowledge back then besides conquering nearby places. Things would be 'discovered' several times by several different places because they were just too distant to actually transmit knowledge. On top of that, governments of the time basically meant 'whoever is in charge owns everything', so it would be completely up to them whether any resources were spent utilizing said resources.

At best, you would have had whoever controlling Alexandria have a slight technological edge, but unless they also had the resources and man power to do something with it, they would see little practical application. We are spoiled in that we can instantly transmit any discovery around the globe for others to learn and build on, but it wasn't always like that.

Trade with the Arab world is what lead to the Italian renaissance. No conquering or war involved there.

Also about 1400 years of technological advancement after The Great Library.

Blue_Dream87 posted...

At least 150 years, but of course, the liberal SJWs back then got mad about all the information and censored it all by burning down the library.

Kinda like what they're doing now.

Julius Caesar burned it down homie.
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Dash_Harber posted...

pres_madagascar posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Not much. There was basically know way to spread knowledge back then besides conquering nearby places. Things would be 'discovered' several times by several different places because they were just too distant to actually transmit knowledge. On top of that, governments of the time basically meant 'whoever is in charge owns everything', so it would be completely up to them whether any resources were spent utilizing said resources.

At best, you would have had whoever controlling Alexandria have a slight technological edge, but unless they also had the resources and man power to do something with it, they would see little practical application. We are spoiled in that we can instantly transmit any discovery around the globe for others to learn and build on, but it wasn't always like that.

Trade with the Arab world is what lead to the Italian renaissance. No conquering or war involved there.

Also about 1400 years of technological advancement after The Great Library.

Well yes. I'm saying the Arab age of enlightenment was the principle inspiration for the renaissance happening.
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pres_madagascar posted...

Nope. Arab world was having a golden age of art, science, math, etc.. which ultimately led to the Italian renaissance.

Uh... I guess you could say that. If you count invading eastern Europe and forcing scholars to converge in places like Florence. Also, like I mentioned before, they preserved some the writings from Alexandria, leading them to be reintroduced to the west.

I'd credit the printing press for the onset of the Renassaince far more than I would the Arabic golden age.

pres_madagascar posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

pres_madagascar posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Not much. There was basically know way to spread knowledge back then besides conquering nearby places. Things would be 'discovered' several times by several different places because they were just too distant to actually transmit knowledge. On top of that, governments of the time basically meant 'whoever is in charge owns everything', so it would be completely up to them whether any resources were spent utilizing said resources.

At best, you would have had whoever controlling Alexandria have a slight technological edge, but unless they also had the resources and man power to do something with it, they would see little practical application. We are spoiled in that we can instantly transmit any discovery around the globe for others to learn and build on, but it wasn't always like that.

Trade with the Arab world is what lead to the Italian renaissance. No conquering or war involved there.

Also about 1400 years of technological advancement after The Great Library.

Well yes. I'm saying the Arab age of enlightenment was the principle inspiration for the renaissance happening.

Yeah, and I don't deny that. What I'm saying is that until fairly recently, trade routes were relatively short and knowledge did not pass out of bordering kingdoms/republics very often. At least not until the 15th century and the Age of Discovery.

pres_madagascar posted...

Crazyman93 posted...

Dathrowed1 posted...

Who knows, Western advancement was more stopped at the time because the Romans were like "LOL science"

Not even remotely true. Western Advancement stopped for a long period starting with the sack of Rome. And in fact, the Catholic Church was a major supporter of the continuation of the sciences. Coppernicus for instance was Church sponsored.

*so long as you didn't try to question the church or it's teachings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel
His experiments seem to contradict God being responsible for how you come out. Yet the Church didn't censor him.
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Crazyman93 posted...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel
His experiments seem to contradict God being responsible for how you come out. Yet the Church didn't censor him.

He kind of... was the church. Like, he was a monk and he ended up being the head of his monastery years after his experiment. Plus, he wasn't doing the experiment in an attempt to go against The Bible.

The biggest reason the church didn't bother him, though, was that basically nobody knew about his work until about 1900, which was almost 20 years after he died. He wrote up his results, then sent them to another guy (I forgot who) who basically blew them off and told him to try it on another plant. The results didn't work out because the second plant (milkweed) crossed genes differently than pea plants. He basically gave up and his work faded into obscurity until other researchers rediscovered it independently while doing their own genetics experiments.

Blue_Dream87 posted...

At least 150 years, but of course, the liberal SJWs back then got mad about all the information and censored it all by burning down the library.

Kinda like what they're doing now.

Admiral?
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Blue_Dream87 posted...

At least 150 years, but of course, the liberal SJWs back then got mad about all the information and censored it all by burning down the library.

Kinda like what they're doing now.

Good job just randomly bringing up SJWs and liberals for no reason.
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tag for glorified cavemen.
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pegusus123456 posted...

Skye Reynolds posted...

There are two lost myths which I bet were contained within that library:

1) Hercules fighting Triton
2) the Amazons battling griffins

Both are depicted in pottery, yet neither concept is featured in any surviving documents.

Or maybe the Greeks had fanfiction too

Many of their plays would constitute fan fiction, but I'm betting there's a story which went along with both of those. Can you name a story which features the griffin? Everyone knows it as one of the mythological creatures, but I've never seen it featured in any of the stories of old.

Zikten posted...

Dathrowed1 posted...

Who knows, Western advancement was more stopped at the time because the Romans were like "LOL science"

When did they do that? The Romans loved science it was their collapse that led to the lol science phase.

Naw, there was actually a scientific explosion during Hellenistic times bit the Romans didn't see much value in science except for those you can use day to day like medicine and engineering, I am actually reading a book on thay subject.
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Skye Reynolds posted...

Can you name a story which features the griffin?

The Life of Apollonius of Tyana

As to the gold which the griffins dig up, there are rocks which are spotted with drops of gold as with sparks, which this creature can quarry because of the strength of its beak. “For these animals do exist in India” he said, “and are held in veneration as being sacred to the Sun ; and the Indian artists, when they represent the Sun, yoke four of them abreast to draw the images ; and in size and strength they resemble lions, but having this advantage over them that they have wings, they will attack them, and they get the better of elephants and of dragons. But they have no great power of flying, not more than have birds of short flight; for they are not winged as is proper with birds, but the palms of their feet are webbed with red membranes, such that they are able to revolve them, and make a flight and fight in the air; and the tiger alone is beyond their powers of attack, because in swiftness it rivals the winds.

And the griffins of the Indians and the ants of the Ethiopians, though they are dissimilar in form, yet, from what we hear, play similar parts; for in each country they are, according to the tales of poets, the guardians of gold, and devoted to the gold reefs of the two countries

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http://www.ancient.eu/Roman_Science/

So Romans saying lol science is a gross exaggration, but they weren't into making new scientific discoveries except towards practical use. Comparing this to the science of the Ionians before them, this is generally seen as a halt in scientific progress. Christendom made it worse though.
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Focusing on practical science isn't a bad idea. Theoretical science is kind of a luxury
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Hinakuluiau posted...

The Life of Apollonius of Tyana

Ooh, nice. I hadn't read that one before.

history would have played out a bit differently but I don't know if there would've been a dramatic difference
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Science as we understand it didn't exist during antiquity. This is a pointless argument.
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NadYobWoc posted...

Science as we understand it didn't exist during antiquity. This is a pointless argument.

What is this.

DarkChozoGhost posted...

Focusing on practical science isn't a bad idea. Theoretical science is kind of a luxury

But it can be argued that such thinking is why science halted after the Latins dominated the Hellenistic world.
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The fact that it was destroyed at all suggests no one at the time put much value in that knowledge anyway.

pres_madagascar posted...

LordFarquad1312 posted...

Human civilization took like a thousand years break during the middle ages.

Nope. Arab world was having a golden age of art, science, math, etc.. which ultimately led to the Italian renaissance.

And then we switched.
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wah_wah_wah posted...

The fact that it was destroyed at all suggests no one at the time put much value in that knowledge anyway.

Not true.
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Hexagon posted...

NadYobWoc posted...

Science as we understand it didn't exist during antiquity. This is a pointless argument.

What is this.

Facts. Do some research if you don't understand.
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wah_wah_wah posted...

The fact that it was destroyed at all suggests no one at the time put much value in that knowledge anyway.

This is not true at all.
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Dathrowed1 posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

The fact that it was destroyed at all suggests no one at the time put much value in that knowledge anyway.

Not true.

You would like to see it as this catastrophic out-of-nowhere event that didn't happen in any context of an era that disregarded knowledge because it then justifies your own ignorance. If anything the destruction of that library should have taught, it is that reservoirs of knowledge are fleeting, so learn as much as you can from them while they are still with us.

Things would have been the same.

People say that many things had been lost but I have my doubts that it either wasn't recovered or would have mattered.

Say for instance the Newton's three laws were in a book on that library. Would this be a huge discovery? Sure. But it wouldn't change history.

really the biggest losses were books about practices like the text the emperor Claudius wrote about the Etruscans. If we had that it might answer some of the questions we have about them.

What really set humans back wasn't losing the libraray. It was losing the Romen Empire.
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maybe a generation or two ahead with tech, engineering.