Poll of the Day > Geekmasters: Now in 4D

(+) Yeah! (+)

Zeus posted...

The Wave Master posted...

I also recommend "Trading Places." Not only does Jamie Lee Curtis get naked, it was a time when Eddie Murphu was funny. That ended I 89 after "Coming to America" was released.

It's one of those movies you just assume everybody has seen by this point, although Coming to America is probably the most popular of the two.

Also, Coming to America wasn't Eddie's last funny movie, although it was probably the last real high point in his career. After Beverly Hills Cop 3 in the early 90s, he mostly starred in critically panned films (or ones with good reception but didn't make much money -- such as Bowfinger) and as a talking animal sidekick.

Yeah, his best after Beverly Hills Cop 3 was possibly his first Dr. Doolittle film, and even that was just OK.
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The Wave Master posted...

P.O. and I love this movie.

STOP PLAYING WITH YOURSELF KENT.


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Jesus Wave, you really are going to become a Cyborg at this point. Sorry, but you can't have my username! Hang in there, fellow Geek.

Oddly, I may have a torn muscle in my rotator cuff (<fun fact, absolutely everything, except for Google, flags the word "rotator" as being spelled wrong, despite it being correct...odd), finally got into an Orthopedic. So physical therapy for me, as it's likely minor, and from bench pressing.

Other than that, finishing up this show, plan on doing some minor vacationing, and then I'll go work for Disney for the first time on a show...yipee.

I actually almost caught up on all my console games for the first time in ever. Got a few Wii/Wii U ones I never finished, and I need to do the BotW DLC, but I've been mostly just playing Splatoon 2 and contemplating booting up the Metroid Primes or Viewtiful Joe again. Or Baten Kaitos.

My Steam backlog is still a monster. Got Resident Evil 7 next on my docket, then I think Wolfenstein: New Order.

Finished Season 1 of Master of None, it was alright. Think I'm ready to dive back into Fargo and watch the show in earnest.

That's Cyborg's lightning breakdown on what's up in my life, lol.
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CyborgSage00x0 posted...

Jesus Wave, you really are going to become a Cyborg at this point. Sorry, but you can't have my username! Hang in there, fellow Geek.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZbCH8SG7Lg" data-time="

CyborgSage00x0 posted...

Finished Season 1 of Master of None, it was alright.

I gave up after 3-4 episodes. Never enjoyed it that much and, tbh, not only was Aziz my least favorite P&R actor, but I disliked his standup.
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Oh River Phoenix's atill living brother, Johnny Cash, has signed a deal to play The Joker in a stand alone Joker movie.

This will be bad for several reasons.

1. DC is making this film, so it will be bad.
2. Trying to explain The Joker's origins never ends well. He is better off being an agent of chaos. (The Killing Joke might be the one exception.)
3. Warner Brothers is going to probably do a crappy version of The previously mentioned Kiing Joke, and so it will be a mess.
4. They are more than Likely going to make this a PG-13 movie. Running everything.

I'm not ready worried about Gladiator's sidekick doing a bad job, because he is a great actor, but for the reasons above I'm worried. Are any of you?
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The Wave Master posted...

Oh River Phoenix's atill living brother, Johnny Cash,

Wait, you mean the musician? He's gotta be dead now... Even if he isn't, he's way too old to play the Joker.

The Wave Master posted...

2. Trying to explain The Joker's origins never ends well. He is better off being an agent of chaos. (The Killing Joke might be the one exception.)

Maybe we'll get a CYOA-style origin story. That'd be awesome.
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The Killing Joke was also bad, lynch me.

I'd like to see how they handle Joaquin is Joker.

L eto, I was actually really excited about the casting when I heard it. He has the build and acting talent to play a good classic Joker... But then they decided Ledger's version wasn't edgy enough so they gave him ridiculous tattoos, a grill, and shaved his eyebrows.
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Korruptor posted...

The Killing Joke was also bad, lynch me.

Comic or film? Because knocking the movie isn't terribly controversial, especially since they added a filler storyline.

Metalsonic66 posted...

L eto, I was actually really excited about the casting when I heard it. He has the build and acting talent to play a good classic Joker... But then they decided Ledger's version wasn't edgy enough so they gave him ridiculous tattoos, a grill, and shaved his eyebrows.

It was a weird look, but I still kinda liked Leto. And nothing about Ledger seemed all that edgy -- or, at least, completely out of keeping with some versions of the Joker.
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Zeus posted...

nothing about Ledger seemed all that edgy

Except his appearance and twitchiness
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Comic or film? Because knocking the movie isn't terribly controversial, especially since they added a filler storyline.

both

I finally watched Justice League.

It is better than Batman vs Superman, but we've established that a homeless man taking a liquid dump is better than that film.

The movie suffered from what I figured the problem would be. In that it would feel rushed. Because not every character has an individual movie to flesh out the characters.

That's what made Infinity War so much more impressive as that movie had dozens more characters but still felt fully fleshed out. DC and Warner brothers don't understand this.

Still, not a train wreck, but not something I have to ever revisit either.
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I still think they didn't NEED to give EVERY character an origin or introductory movie, but they did need to flesh them out more.

Justice League in the DCAU was able to do it in one or two episodes even though only Superman and Batman had been established in that universe (with Flash appearing in one or two episodes of Superman and a different Green Lantern appearing in another episode).

They also should have made both Barry and Arthur blonde, but that wouldn't have saved the story.
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The Wave Master posted...

The movie suffered from what I figured the problem would be. In that it would feel rushed. Because not every character has an individual movie to flesh out the characters.

Hawkeye and Black Widow among others on the Marvel side still don't have individual movies yet people feel that they're fleshed out. >_>

Plus Cyborg gets an origin story in JL and we get a pretty good feel for Flash's character as well as Aquaman's.

Metalsonic66 posted...

I still think they didn't NEED to give EVERY character an origin or introductory movie, but they did need to flesh them out more.

Justice League in the DCAU was able to do it in one or two episodes even though only Superman and Batman had been established in that universe (with Flash appearing in one or two episodes of Superman and a different Green Lantern appearing in another episode).

This, tbh. Especially since many of DC's heroes are better-known anyway. Plus Flash having a tv show would kinda hurt whatever they'd try for a solo film.
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Hawkeye and Widow appeared in other movies first, at least
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Metalsonic66 posted...

Hawkeye and Widow appeared in other movies first, at least

Barely. Hawkeye's "appearance" in Thor borders on non-existent, was ad hoc as fuck, was clearly spliced in after the fact, and was pretty blatantly just to have him show up before the Avengers. It barely counts as anything.


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Not saying it was a major establishing part, but it was an appearance at least
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Metalsonic66 posted...

Not saying it was a major establishing part, but it was an appearance at least

So if Flash was in the background during a crowd scene in BvS, that would count as a big improvement? =p
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Zeus posted...

Metalsonic66 posted...

Not saying it was a major establishing part, but it was an appearance at least

So if Flash was in the background during a crowd scene in BvS, that would count as a big improvement? =p

Who's to say he wasn't given the speed he moves at? >_>
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When I was a kid, teenager really, many, many, many, moons ago, my core group of friends and I wanted to create a video game company that would rival Squaresift.

We called it, "Endoplasmic Reticulum"

Our goal was to only make RPG's.

Never much of a computer gamer I left the PC side, and more western based RPGs, to my friends Matt, Richard, and Keith.

Bank Robber, John, and myself would do the turn based RPGs in the Japanese style.

Those were the games that interested us.

We joked around about a turn based game where you would start off at level one, and all the enemies would start off at level 99. The bad guys would crush you in one hit, and you would never gain a level. The game was affectionate called, "You suck."

The game was devised as more of a torture turn based jrpg. You could advance to level two or beyond, but you had to master the games dodge mechanic, or if "you sucked" then you could die a million times, and gain a level out of pity.

Of course we were just kids joking around, but I never forgot those conversations about the games we loved and wanted to make for our company.

I mention this because I think about a game like Octopath Traveler, and I'm happy the games I love as a kid are still getting made. A part of me wants to go back to those days. Because my life didn't work out the way I wanted.

Worst of all was my friend Matt. He joined the military and became a travel medic. He apparently saw some horrible stuff in Afghanistan. He came back home a changed man, and turned to heroin a while back. I haven't heard from Matt in over ten years. His mom contacted me through Facebook 3 years ago looking for him, as she could no longer find him.

I hope he's okay and still alive, but a part of me knows the truth, deep down Indide.

So, I just think back to being a stupid kid making torture jrpgs on pen and paper, before life changed us all.

I would like to think that on some parallel universe we did form "ER" and we made that game, and all of us are alive, happy, and together.
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Zeus posted...

So if Flash was in the background during a crowd scene in BvS, that would count as a big improvement? =p

Would have been better than three seconds of surveillance footage.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Zeus posted...

Metalsonic66 posted...

Not saying it was a major establishing part, but it was an appearance at least

So if Flash was in the background during a crowd scene in BvS, that would count as a big improvement? =p

Who's to say he wasn't given the speed he moves at? >_>

Technically, he WAS there. When Bruce has his stupid vision/dream thing, that's supposed to be Flash from the future using his "run so fast you break time itself" power to try and warn him somehow.

And yes, it's very stupid.


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The Wave Master posted...

You could advance to level two or beyond, but you had to master the games dodge mechanic, or if "you sucked" then you could die a million times, and gain a level out of pity.

*thinks of Dark Souls et al*

You were a bit ahead of your time there, Wave.
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Currently watching a Dem primary gubernatorial debate between Bridgeport Mayor (and ex-con) Joe Ganim and millionaire businessman (and perennial challenger) Ned Lamont. As with most other races, I don't like either candidate. However, I will say that Ganim sounds like a stereotypical mobster and his constant "no disrespect, but..." remarks are almost cartoonish. Hopefully whoever gets the GOP nomination might be better, although I imagine anybody who gets elected will be an improvement over Dannel fucking Malloy.

In geekier news, I recently watched the "British science fiction supernatural horror miniseries" Residue -- without realizing that it was a season 1 that likely won't ever see another season -- which starred a very-often-in-his-underwear Ramsay Bolton (seriously, why? Just why?). While it starts slow, it gets pretty damn cool by the end (albeit a little goofy) so it's a shame that it likely won't be continued.

The Wave Master posted...

When I was a kid, teenager really, many, many, many, moons ago, my core group of friends and I wanted to create a video game company that would rival Squaresift.

I think most male teens at some point want to create a gaming company =p Even today, when I barely game (outside of some hard-casual stuff, anyway), I would still like to create a gaming company.

I also haven't seriously played a CCG in over a decade but the other day I was thinking how I wanted to create a CCG. And then I was wondering how easy it'd be to mock up a program that could auto-populate card templates.
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good luck on starting a company in an industry saturated with pixelated knockoffs of other games

It was a dream a long time ago. I still love old school JRPG's, and I think there is a market for those types of games.

With an interesting battle system, half way decent graphics, and a killer story, you can still make an 80 to 100 hour jrpg on a budget, and sel 2 to 3 million copies and make a strong compnay and a living.

You would have to rely on a lot of word of mouth and a good viral marketing campaign. Along with a great social media blitz and it's possible to be successful.

Stop being so negative Korruptor.
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The Wave Master posted...

With an interesting battle system, half way decent graphics, and a killer story, you can still make an 80 to 100 hour jrpg on a budget, and sel 2 to 3 million copies and make a strong compnay and a living.

That's waaaaaaaaay overly ambitious. You're better off trying to control costs than to just count on sales, especially given that most jpgs don't come close to touching a million copies.

This is a list of the best-selling JRPG *franchises* by total copies sold.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Japanese_role-playing_game_franchises

You'll notice that a lot of those *franchises* only clock in at 2-3m total sales. One of my all-time favorite franchises, MMBN, only had 775k sales across SEVEN games (not counting ports). And it certainly had an interesting battle system, neat graphics, and a pretty good (albeit simple) story, as well as the weight of a recognizable larger franchise behind it.

All that aside, a company *can* be profitable with lower sales, assuming that you keep things small, etc. A group of friends can certainly produce low-budget titles if one guy handles art, another handles the writing (which, given the excessive dialogue, is a bigger deal than it sounds), a few guys do the programming, and they have other friends playtest. The problem, though, is that most people want to write or do the art -- and even then, they often don't want to bother with the minutia -- and few people want to program because it's the boring, unsexy, less-rewarding part.
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The Stick of Truth game is surprisingly fun. The game sure does love to throw a bunch of useless junk into your inventory though. Luckily you can sell everything for at least a little money... Even wads of pubes.
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Zeus posted...

All that aside, a company *can* be profitable with lower sales, assuming that you keep things small, etc.

Look at a company like Kemco. They crank out about one classic style rpg on mobile a month and a few get ported to the 3ds as value titles. Most of the games are fairly generic storywise, certainly nothing to rave about but some of them introduce some interesting battle mechanics. I'm sure that their small overhead allows them to try new things.
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Been saying Nathan Fillion should be Nathan Drake for years now. He took matters Into his own hands. Make this happen Sony.

https://kotaku.com/nathan-fillion-made-an-uncharted-fan-film-and-its-exce-1827624753
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The Wave Master posted...

Been saying Nathan Fillion should be Nathan Drake for years now. He took matters Into his own hands. Make this happen Sony.

https://kotaku.com/nathan-fillion-made-an-uncharted-fan-film-and-its-exce-1827624753

People keep saying he's perfect, and a decade or so ago that might have been true. But honestly, he's kind of old for the role now.

It'd be one thing if it was going to be an animated movie and he was just doing the voice, but in that scenario I'd much rather they just use Nolan North anyway.


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I kinda thought he was a little too old-looking by this point but that looks pretty good.

I always thought Dylan McDermott (when he doesn't have a full beard) looked a lot like Nate.

And damn, Stephen Lang as Sully is brilliant.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

The Wave Master posted...

Been saying Nathan Fillion should be Nathan Drake for years now. He took matters Into his own hands. Make this happen Sony.

https://kotaku.com/nathan-fillion-made-an-uncharted-fan-film-and-its-exce-1827624753

People keep saying he's perfect, and a decade or so ago that might have been true. But honestly, he's kind of old for the role now.

This, tbh. He even looks old in the photo they use.
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He looks pretty damn close to Uncharted 4 Drake. Maybe a bit less slender.
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Metalsonic66 posted...

He looks pretty damn close to Uncharted 4 Drake. Maybe a bit less slender.

Drake's usually portrayed as being in his 30s - the first game he's around 31 or so, by the end of the last game he's 40. Fillion's almost 50 as-is, and will keep getting older as the movie takes longer and longer to go into production.


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Oh, and here's an RPG question for Shadow (and anyone who wants to talk about RPG stuff, honestly):

Hypothetically speaking, if you knew someone who wanted to RP, but for whatever reason you couldn't pull a full group together, and so for the hell of it you decided to run a D&D 5e solo campaign for that player, how would you handle CR?

Obviously, at the most basic level, CR is supposed to represent the average level of a party of four adventurers (so if you have four level 3 adventurers, the ideal CR for them to fight is CR 3), so the easiest answer would be to just divide CR by 4 (so a single level 1 PC would match up best against 1/4 CR creatures). But CR also takes into account more intangible elements that make things more complicated.

For instance, a one-person party is effectively over-specialized and lacking multiple roles (a single Cleric is lacking DPS and tanking, a strong Fighter is lacking dedicated healing and crowd control, etc). They're also far more vulnerable to things like stun lock - in a group, getting paralyzed or stun just reduces the resources the party can bring to bear, but in a solo party, it's pretty much straight-up getting murdered. It also unbalances the usual turn economy dynamic (ie, the enemies get more turns per round than the player does), and reduces the damage types the PC can inflict, thus potentially creating a problem against enemies with resistances.

And that doesn't get into the problem of not having anyone around to drag your corpse to a temple for a rez if/when you die, which can make everything far more permanent when it comes to dying.

So while a CR of 1/4th the PC's level would theoretically be balanced, it might actually still be harder for that lone PC to beat that creature than it would be for a group of four PCs to beat a monster with 4x the CR (or just a group of 4 monsters with that CR).

So how would you handle that? Only set them against monsters with a CR of even less than 1/4th their level? Deliberately steer clear of all monsters with stunning attacks or resistances the PC can't oppose? Give the PC some form of extra healing item or defense that gives them an edge? Just DMPC a full party of other characters who can offset their weaknesses?

I've been pondering the idea and thinking of different ways to work around the problem (mostly as an intellectual exercise - this is the sort of stuff I think about to kill time while doing yardwork or other boring things), and I was kind of curious what sort of ideas you might have about it.


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One of a few ways:

1. Make them super broken, maybe with extra actions or similar things to give them access to healing. This can make encounters extra-swingy with turns where the PC blows apart every single monster they come across, or just get smacked to death. You could just use solo monsters, but that gets boring after the 6th one.

2. Give them NPCs to boss around (during fights at least, outside of combat it's whatever is the most interesting). This requires a lot of effort on my part to give them personality and level them up all individually and make sure it works out. It would be potentially the most rewarding for both the player and the GM. This is the recommendation I see the most often from mechanics-minded people.
Maybe for a plot thing they should be royalty, or similar high position (or their boss). Because they will do a lot of saving that doesn't make sense for just another joe shmoe, because that's what players will do, they will focus mostly on their PC.

3. Fudge the numbers more than normal. Combat wanes when the player is feeling nervous about getting close to dying, and bumps up when things are too easy (up to and including having other monsters show up). This isn't the same as running up against a wall made out of monsters and expecting to come out fine, but that the average fight that a PC should be able to beat means that everything doesn't explode.

Any one of these requires balance on the GM's end because things will be weird while both people get into the swing of things. The part I would be worried about is that if the PC ever hits 0 hp, the encounter is over no question. With other players they could be a rallying point to try and save them and a back and forth, but if it's just 1 PC, it's much more of a tight rope.

I personally would go with 3 with a strong emphasis on how dangerous the world is. But that's also how I tend to run stuff in general. Combat tends to suck in my games, other options are always there.
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shadowsword87 posted...

The part I would be worried about is that if the PC ever hits 0 hp, the encounter is over no question. With other players they could be a rallying point to try and save them and a back and forth, but if it's just 1 PC, it's much more of a tight rope.

I could see an option there for at least some sort of second-chance ability, similar to the one some Barbarians have and Half-Orcs have, where a character reduced to 0 HP automatically second-winds back to consciousness with 1 HP, at least giving them a chance to heal or flee once they realize they're in trouble. That could also combine with house ruling healing potion drinking as a free action they can do on any turn rather than just on their own, allowing them to recover at least somewhat immediately (which would probably have to go hand-in-hand with greater availability of healing potions in general, plus having access to stronger types of healing potions than normal at any given level).

There's also the possibility if enemies are more sapient, to have them be more inclined to take characters who reach 0 HP prisoner rather than kill them outright (and then have the character forced to escape whatever sort of prison they wind up being put in). This wouldn't make sense for more instinctual monsters (a gelatinous cube isn't going to take prisoners), and it might start to feel stupid after the 3rd or 4th time you've been taken prisoner and forced to escape, but it would at least add something of a safety net for unconsciousness.

The other idea I was thinking about was having the PC discover something almost immediately in the story, before any combat, that gives them healing and recovery on par with having a Cleric. ie, something that can cast a limited number of healing spells as a free action on the PC's turn (or maybe even as a free action during any turn/as a free reaction during an enemy's turn). This could either be some sort of powerful artifact (which probably becomes a major plot point in the ongoing story), or even something like a strange Modron-like orb that comes to life when they touch it, that floats around and follows them wherever they go, keeping them alive (possibly a magi-tek relic of some long-forgotten civilization, which could also easily become a major plot point in the ongoing story). Or something even more sinister, like the little clockwork spider in Cronos ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronos_(film) ), or even the silver spheres from Phantasm.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Drake's usually portrayed as being in his 30s - the first game he's around 31 or so, by the end of the last game he's 40. Fillion's almost 50 as-is, and will keep getting older as the movie takes longer and longer to go into production.

I didn't say anything about his actual age. I said he LOOKS a lot like Uncharted 4 Drake.

Also, this was just a fan thing. He's most likely not going to be in the real movie (if they even end up making it)
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

The other idea I was thinking about was having the PC discover something almost immediately in the story, before any combat, that gives them healing and recovery on par with having a Cleric. ie, something that can cast a limited number of healing spells as a free action on the PC's turn (or maybe even as a free action during any turn/as a free reaction during an enemy's turn). This could either be some sort of powerful artifact (which probably becomes a major plot point in the ongoing story), or even something like a strange Modron-like orb that comes to life when they touch it, that floats around and follows them wherever they go, keeping them alive (possibly a magi-tek relic of some long-forgotten civilization, which could also easily become a major plot point in the ongoing story). Or something even more sinister, like the little clockwork spider in Cronos ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronos_(film) ), or even the silver spheres from Phantasm.

I read a discussion about Warforged in 5e after writing this (completely unrelated to this discussion or idea, prompted by an entirely different line of thinking), and it kind of gave me an interesting idea for how to handle this sort of thing.

First session, the PC finds themselves in an ancient ruin, where they find a small metal sphere. It basically starts floating and following them around, and can cast healing spells. It also has abilities like Uncanny Dodge/Evasion/Disengage built in, so, combined with its fly speed, make it extremely difficult to hit in combat, so it can always have an opportunity to heal the PC.

Shortly after (whether in the same ruin, or a different-but-related one), they discover what is essentially a large suit of animated armor, that mostly operates as a Champion subclass Fighter. It too animates and follows the PC, and acts like a relatively simple tank/melee robot (you point out a target, it beats it to death). If the PC are themselves a tanky sort of class (Fighter, Paladin, Tanky Barbarian), they instead find a more stealth/striker combat mech that can work more tactically with them. I'm basically thinking something that works like a Ranger build, and which probably looks like a large cat a la panther/tiger, or something along the lines of dog/wolf (ie, something fast that can operate stealthily for recon and ambush).

Eventually the PC will find a third 'bot, which will be another floating device, though this one looks like a regular octahedron (aka an 8-sided die). This one is an offensive spellcasting unit that operates mainly like an Evoker Wizard (ie, blow shit up). If the PC are themselves a spellcasting class, they instead find the stealth unit mentioned earlier.

At this point, the PC basically has a four-person party with each major role fulfilled (unless the PC is a Cleric, which I'll address in a minute). Because the support units are slaved to the PC and lack personality, they can move them tactically in combat as extensions of themselves, and the DM doesn't need to come up with unique personalities and conflicting motivations for each that could complicate how the PC interacts with them. And deliberately building them as simpler constructs rather than having complex ability synergy makes it easier for a single player to use them effectively (plus, since the DM levels them up separately, the player doesn't need to juggle all of their potential advancement).

As an aside, I'm also assuming every 'bot has at least some degree of self-repair functionality (both for regular "healing" in game terms, but also to prevent a 'bot "dying" and being unrecoverable - eventually, they regain enough function to get up and follow the PC again). They CAN be destroyed (either via massive single damage or constant damage over time), but it's very difficult.

(cont)


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I'd also say each 'bot has some degree of "adaptive programming", to justify how they "level up" along with the player and "learn" new abilities. In technical terms, what they're actually doing is adjusting their own operating parameters to new combat scenarios, and accessing appropriate built-in operating potentials. Though I'd definitely make each 'bot (damn it, they need some sort of fancy name) start with a lower level than the PC, so they pull the average CR for the group down and allow the PC to hold more of the spotlight and feel more like the starring badass.

As mentioned, the Cleric is the odd-man out in this design, because it leaves them with an extra healer, and without the stealth unit. I think that's fine though, because having an extra healer still helps in situations where the Cleric goes down (and because "You can never have too many healers" has been one of my RPG philosophies for years anyway), and having a Healer/Healer/Tank/Caster party still feels fairly balanced to me (if you're going to sacrifice any single role, the stealth striker seems the most superfluous).

I also thought of some modifications to this scenario. If the campaign is going to take place in urban locations more than wilderness or dungeon areas, an "animal" stealth unit that acts like a Ranger might not be as useful, and the PC might be better off with a Rogue. In that case, I might make it a small sphere that seems inert until sent into action, at which point it extrudes 8 long legs (making it look like a spider), which allow it to open doors and windows, pick locks, disarm traps, and have a moderate amount of stealth for sneak attacks (and possibly some form of limited poison bite attack). Conversely, maybe this "infiltration unit" actually comes in tandem with the wilderness stealth "stalker" unit, and normally locks into position on the back of the cat/wolf/etc, and activates and separates when necessary (in this scenario, I see the unit effectively only having one "mind", and when the Rogue unit is active the Ranger unit goes into lockdown, so the PC is essentially choosing to either have a Rogue or a Ranger at any specific time, and it takes a turn or two for the separation/reattachment process to complete, so you can go switching back and forth in combat).

I also thought about the idea of having the PC potentially find "software upgrades" in different ruins that can be used to modify one of the units they already have. So, for example, they might be able to find a "subdual" upgrade that allows their spellcaster unit (which is mainly just shooting elemental attacks as its baseline) to access new spells which are more effective for taking down enemies without killing them, effectively "writing" spells like Sleep, Hold Person, or Web into its "spellbook". In the same way, they might be able to add some form of upgrade to their healer unit, so it can add buffing spells to pure healing and become a more flexible support unit and not just pure medic.

Also also, I thought about the idea that, at some point, the PC can find what is essentially a mech/power suit, which they put on like heavy armor, and gain bonuses to Strength and AC (possibly at the expense of Dex), and which potentially has other advantages (a regenerating health internal life-support system, some form of spellcasting attack action, limited flight, Con bonuses or extra resistances, saving throw boosts, etc). Sort of the culmination of becoming the inheritor of this ancient civilization's war-tech.

(cont)


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Also also also (I really need a new way to continue a line of thought!), I considered the need to justify precisely WHY the PC can activate and all of these 'bots while no one else has apparently never managed to do so over hundreds of years. I figure the easiest way is if they have some sort of heirloom that's been in their family for generations (probably either a ring or some strange pendant or amulet) that actually turns out to be recognition key for ancient tech (and which will give knowledgeable recurring enemies a reason to want to steal it from them, thus furthering plot). Or perhaps the key is actually themselves, as unbeknownst to themselves, they are descendants of the ancient race, and even at such a far remove, there is some trace of genetic code that all of the ancient tech can detect and which it considers primary for command (in which case, villains may want to capture and dissect the PC to learn the secret and replicate it themselves). There's also the more mystical possibility that the PC is a reincarnated ancient whose body is that of one of the current races, but whose soul is of the race that built all of the ruins and 'bots, so the tech works on a more spiritual level and can detect their soul and responds to it (again, potentially prompting villains to try and find a way to siphon out their soul or duplicate its nature for themselves).

In retrospect, I can definitely see the influence of games like Horizon: Zero Dawn, Recore, Halo, Destiny, and even Fallout on how I'm sort of processing these ideas, so those are probably the sources I'd go back to for further inspiration or ideas to refine the concept or expand upon it.


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You are really defining a lot about the PC before even asking the player, and the characteristics that you're giving them straight up negates certain archetypes.
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shadowsword87 posted...

You are really defining a lot about the PC before even asking the player

How so?

I can see it in the sense of implying they're descended from an ancient race or essentially casting them in the role of "Chosen One", but I think the latter is narratively inevitable (and preferable as well) if you're doing any sort of story with a solo hero anyway. And as for the former, I don't think any DM should feel constrained to add elements of backstory to a character without explicit player approval.

Like, I wouldn't say "Oh by the way, your character was kidnapped and held hostage for three weeks as a child", because that's forcing characterization onto their specific PC, but I'd have no qualms with having them discover (whether true or false) evidence that implies that one of their ancestors was part of a demon cult, and that some aspect of their evil shenanigans is going to come back to haunt the PC (whether that be a curse, or an unfulfilled blood pact that applies across generations, or even some sort of "you're the only one who can reverse the evil thing they did and save the world" scenario).

About the only thing I can think of being "defined" for the player is that their characters clearly live in a setting that has some mysterious Progenitor race who have left behind ruins, and that the flavor of the game would have sci-fi-ish elements due to magi-tek, but those aren't things I would assume most DMs would ever discuss in advance with their players anyway (outside of vague discussions about genre), or otherwise feel the need to seek approval for.

I suppose I'm also assuming the character would find these things and actually keep/use them, but honestly, that's pretty inherent in the PC mindset regardless. If you're not making a character who is willing to go on adventures and recklessly use magic items found in tombs, are you really playing D&D at all?



shadowsword87 posted...

and the characteristics that you're giving them straight up negates certain archetypes.

Which characteristics do you feel I'm giving them, and which archetypes do you see them negating?

Again, from my perspective, I'm not really forcing any characteristics on a PC at all, apart from possible "Chosen One" or "descendant of someone or something important", and those are so nebulously vague I can see them applying to almost any other archetype anyway. Especially since players can always have their characters embrace their destiny with both hands, outright refuse to accept it., or just sort of cautiously try to feel out precisely what it means to them and how they need to deal with it.

(And even then, their connection to the technology could literally be as loose as "my great-grandfather accidentally stumbled across this ring in a ruin when he was a young adventurer, and now that it's passed to me I just coincidentally happened to be wearing it in precisely the right place at the right time for luck to allow me to benefit from it in a way no one else ever has - at least not that is historically known." You don't need to rely on Fate, Destiny, or "the Will of the Force" to justify it when "It could have been anyone, it just happened to be you" is a viable alternative.)

Everything else is mostly just a case of feeling out which way the story goes and adapting to it afterward. If the PC just sells their magic ring and floating heal ball to the first merchant they find and use the coin to open an inn, then fuck it, the game just devolves into inn management simulator.


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I will be honest, I think I just posted some garbage without thinking about it. I'm scratching my head over and over again with what the hell I was talking about, and I have no idea. Sorry about that.

My biggest problem is that it feels like you're just missing out on so much by predefining how the party will go around punching badguys, which this is DnD, so how you punch badguys is really important. So instead of asking what the player wants to do, and how to get minions, you're saying "robots! Robots everywhere!". Which, robots are cool, but if the PC wants to play a Druid who is against the inevitable march of time, and they all go trying to stop The Big Bad Corporation (TM), it doesn't make sense. Instead you could say that the Druid had various animal friends (bear for tank, wolf for stabby, squirrel for healer) who can get sweet new magic items to buff them up. Or if they're a demonic warlock they could have devils, demons, and reprogrammed angels. Or a thief could have a bruiser, a doctor, and an alchemist. Hell, if they choose to be that weird Iron Man Wizard (called School of Invention), with a mech suit and everything, from Unearthed Arcana, then those robots would make perfect sense no big deal.

I just feel like it would be better to ask the player what they want, and then building the world with them.
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shadowsword87 posted...

I just feel like it would be better to ask the player what they want, and then building the world with them.

Okay, I can get where that's coming from. But I also think most DMs will tend to build their world (or at least pick a world to run) without catering it entirely to the players. Yes, player expectations and desires will indeed influence narrative decisions (and some DMs can absolutely build up from whole cloth from scratch solely based on player input), but I don't necessarily think that's the most common way anyone runs games.

Like, you can decide you want to play a game heavy with transhumanist themes, complete with high technology, jacking into the Matrix, and go for a Tron motif for your character design, but if I want to run a game in Faerun you're kind of fucked. And I think it's pretty acceptable for a DM to say "I'm going to run a game in [insert setting here]", thus giving the players a more limited palette of ideas to work with, rather than sitting quietly with their hands folded while players

Especially since a DM may absolutely hate whatever themes the given player wants to delve into, meaning they're going to be miserable running the game (especially since the DM isn't getting paid to run the game, in spite of being the one who is by far doing the most work to run it well) - and that disinterest and distaste will likely bleed into the game, making it less fun for the player as well. The ideal campaign should involve a setting and story both DM and players enjoy, so everyone's having fun.

Just off the top of my head, in most of the really enjoyable games I watch online, not a single one involved player input in the world or story. For DCA, Chris Perkins basically just said "We're playing in Faerun, and the plot is going to reflect whatever rules book WotC is selling next". For Critical Role, Matt Mercer basically made up his own entire world which is mostly homebrew and detailed enough to fill multiple sourcebooks. The High Rollers game started in one world and just switched to another, both of which were homebrewed mostly from scratch by Mark Hulmes. And the PA Acq Inc games almost border on fanfiction Jerry Holkins has written for his character from the main games becoming the entire campaign for the C-Team (and all of which is set in Faerun).

Yes, it's cool to have players come up with character backstory, and then integrate that backstory into the overarching plot and setting, but I don't feel like every aspect of the setting needs to be explicitly tied to a request or concept introduced by a player. DMs can easily spend months designing a world and a rough plot outline before even recruiting a single player and still run a damned good game (as long as their willing to compromise rather than railroad once the players start doing unexpected shit).



shadowsword87 posted...

So instead of asking what the player wants to do, and how to get minions, you're saying "robots! Robots everywhere!".

Not really. The player could still HAVE minions (probably handled in similar fashion to how stuff like followers and strongholds have been referenced in earlier rulesets, or maybe using Matt Colville's rules if he ever finishes his Kickstarter book), or even an army, if their actions in-game allow them to gather and recruit such.

If anything, what I'm suggesting is more offering "Robots everywhere!" (or more accurately, "A limited number of robots occasionally!") as replacements for the rest of the hypothetical party of PCs they're missing. Though they could just as easily be a collection of DM PCs (but that's way more work), or some form of enslaved spirits, or whatever.


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shadowsword87 posted...

My biggest problem is that it feels like you're just missing out on so much by predefining how the party will go around punching badguys

Not really. At least no more than a group of players saying they want to play a Rogue, a Wizard, a Paladin, and a Cleric lock a group into a predefined system of hitting bad guys.

Yes, you can ASSUME certain things about such a group, but if they wind up having a tendency to use the Rogue as some sort of Dex tank while the Paladin does more healing than the Cleric (who mostly uses attack magic), and the Wizard focuses almost exclusively on support and utility spells and is mostly useless in combat, then your preconceived assumptions don't mean much at all. Especially if they all dump everything they have into Stealth and Charisma abilities and either sneak or talk their way through literally every encounter (or just immediately retire and open an inn right outside the mouth of a famous dungeon, and charge other adventurers for admission/supplies/healing/etc).

I'm more handing a player a collection of tools that are analogous to a Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, and/or Wizard and letting them use them however they want.



shadowsword87 posted...

Instead you could say that the Druid had various animal friends (bear for tank, wolf for stabby, squirrel for healer) who can get sweet new magic items to buff them up.

To be fair, that's not entirely different from what I was thinking of (which was actually an idea spurred in the first place by listening to a video of Jeremy Crawford talking about giving animal companions levels in PC classes, and how he thinks that's actually a better solution than trying to bake animal companion abilities into classes like the Beastmaster Ranger does). I just went with ancient robots rather than pets.

That being said, I have a hard time thinking of animals as anything other than either melee combat builds or stealth attackers (ie, how they're mostly used in games like Far Cry), or as bird recon units (like in Far Cry or the new Assassin's Creed games). Very few animals seem intelligent enough or thematically appropriate to serve as spellcasters or healers for me.

Sure, you could kind of go the Disney princess route with animal companions, and have them all magic and sparkles and painting with all the colors of the wind, but I'm not enough of a hippie to play (or run) that as anything other than camp as fuck parody. Which probably isn't the sort of game most players would want in that scenario. It starts tripping the same warning bells that helped make Werewolf my least favorite White Wolf game ever (which is why, ironically, when playing the game about eco-warrior nature-loving werewolves, I always picked the technology obsessed clan with laptops and cyborg parts - because fuck nature).


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shadowsword87 posted...

Hell, if they choose to be that weird Iron Man Wizard (called School of Invention), with a mech suit and everything, from Unearthed Arcana, then those robots would make perfect sense no big deal.

Well, that's assuming I'd ever let a player use anything from Unearthed Arcana at all (spoiler: I would not).

But to be fair, I don't think you need to be a tech-heavy character to have interesting stories in a world that has ancient magical tech in it. If anything, your hypothetical Druid might have interesting qualms about using such unnatural tools to help defend the natural world, and question whether or not they should be doing so. Conversely, they might consider them no different from the sword or armor they buy in the nearest town to help them fight, and just use them to smash things.

(As an aside, I have literally never used a nuke launcher in any Fallout game, because I am pretty much always RPing my character, and I feel like no human character in a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland should ever want to use a weapon that creates MORE nuclear waste. But plenty of players don't give a single shit, and will shoot them off constantly because large explosions are fun. To each their own.)

If anything, it's like if Star Wars had no Han or Chewie but Luke had 3PO and R2 but also a couple of combat droids. The story as a whole can still be about the Force and overcoming evil in one's heart and redemption and so on, but the guy shooting a blaster at the Stormtroopers is now made out of metal instead out of meat.

Just as an example, the old SNES RPG 7th Saga had an ancient lost civilization with tons of robots and magical technology that had collapsed thousands of years before the start of the game, and one of the main characters you could choose to play was a surviving robot from that fallen empire, with no memory of where it came from, seeking answers to why its creators died. While the other players are all radically different (a human knight, a human cleric, an elf wizard/healer, a dwarf warrior, a demon sorcerer, and a literal space alien), and none of them care about that civilization in the slightest, you WILL go there and explore (both in the present as well as the distant past) and learn its secrets.

While those parts of the story may be more interesting for (or at least more directly related to) the robot main character, it's still interesting enough on its own for the other six characters as well, and at no point do you start getting annoyed because the dwarf who wants immortality magic or the evil demon who wants to conquer the world aren't being directly catered to via their backstory.

(and while I forgot 7th Saga in my earlier list of influences, it's almost certainly helping influence at least some of these ideas)

In the same vein, "ancient civilization in the past, mostly destroyed, but now here's some magical robots" doesn't have to become the core theme and narrative of the game, at the expense of whatever else the players might have in mind. The demon-hunting Paladin and the nature-loving Druid and the street-thief Rogue who wants to become a criminal kingpin can all dip into that particular plot point, and if they want to focus on it, great. Conversely, they can act like most PCs in a game of D&D, loot the fuck out of the old ruins for magical items they can use to beat stuff up, and then never think about the implications or historical backstory while going on to fulfill their own selfish desires.

Though if they DO get interested, it's also ripe pickings for narrative. Precisely who WERE the Precursors/Forerunners/etc? Why did they fall? How can the PC access their tech when no one else can? Just what sort of superweapons DO they have hidden away in lost underground fortresses somewhere? And what dark evil might the PC accidentally unleash?


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Though I must admit, while writing out the stuff above, the idea did occur to me that, instead of magitech robots, there could be some sort of odd scenario involving a curse wherein dead heroes from the past have their souls bound to the PC somehow, allowing him to sort of "summon" them up in combat, where they act as ethereal versions of PC classes, who are dispersed for a specific period of time if "killed" in combat, but can return. Also with the implication that if the PC themselves die, they become part of the curse and their soul becomes one of the ones the NEXT PC who comes along will be able to summon.

But that still runs into my problem of "the DM has to RP the personalities of these characters, and justify why they're all willing to defer without question to the PC's orders in combat", which is why I kind of went with the idea of robots in the first place. Unless part of the curse is that these spirit wisps strictly the literal souls of the dead heroes, just echoes of their presence and identity, that sort of possess their skills but not their personality or self-will. So they're basically just slaves to the one who summons them, and respond to orders wordlessly and without question.

Which could also open interesting doors if the PC somehow attempts to figure out the root of this curse and potentially free the spirits, or even potentially cast Resurrection-type spells to try and bring them back to life, because I could actually see some players being really keen on the idea of some sort of tragic romance between their character and an ethereal phantom that looks like a sad, beautiful princess who they can never actually talk to or meaningfully interact with. But that loops back to the problem of having to play the "PCs" as NPCs again.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Sure, you could kind of go the Disney princess route with animal companions, and have them all magic and sparkles and painting with all the colors of the wind, but I'm not enough of a hippie to play (or run) that as anything other than camp as f*** parody. Which probably isn't the sort of game most players would want in that scenario. It starts tripping the same warning bells that helped make Werewolf my least favorite White Wolf game ever (which is why, ironically, when playing the game about eco-warrior nature-loving werewolves, I always picked the technology obsessed clan with laptops and cyborg parts - because f*** nature).

I've actually been playing Druids more and more. Mostly because they're full casters in 5e, who at level 2 can transform into a motherfucking bear twice every short rest.
But I've played a character who wanted to be a liaison for the forest and out how to properly create a balance between cities and the forest. Viewing everything through a long-term angle as well, so letting them get fallen timber rights for finished goods, and so on. Then the game turned into a monster bash game, so I should probably revive him.
I've also played a lizardfolk who completely understood human culture, and just didn't give a shit. Eating some rats, nap on the street, and so on. Fun silly stuff, but it makes my point.
The point being that what people predefine as "druidic archetypes" just suck for games, and people can figure out other things to play, they just need to be creative.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

If anything, it's like if Star Wars had no Han or Chewie but Luke had 3PO and R2 but also a couple of combat droids. The story as a whole can still be about the Force and overcoming evil in one's heart and redemption and so on, but the guy shooting a blaster at the Stormtroopers is now made out of metal instead out of meat.

At the risk of starting another billion posts: oh, you mean Rouge One?
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