Board 8 > Game of Thrones: the good, the bad, and the ugly (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Bran as king because "he has the best story" in a world where there is literally someone who was resurrected from the dead to be a leader made me laugh out loud. How is that the best they could come up with?

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Aecioo posted...

Lost was fine. I still don't get the hate for it. It definitely took a dive towards the end, but it wasn't as bad as the lows of Thrones or Heroes.

I'm of the opinion that John Locke is one of the worst characters on television.

And there were really low lows all throughout, not just at the end. See: Any Kate episode, most Jack episodes until he stopped giving a shit, really most of the 'main' characters were trash in retrospect
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Dorne in the show has zero good moments,

I don't get why people always say this. Well I do, it's because somehow after 6 seasons they still were deluding themselves of the quality of the show. Go watch those scenes again knowing that the show is garbage and tell me they're not the most enjoyable thing in the season.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Would love to hear your most disappointing character arcs from the first half of the series to the last.

Brienne or Dany have to be up there.

Honestly, the most disappointing character arcs between first half of the series and last half of the series would just be a list of my favorite characters through Seasons 1-5 or 6 that survived to 7-8. So that'd be Arya and Tyrion. This kind of carries over from the source material, since Book 3 (S3-4) wraps up the entire first act of the story. I'll get to them later, but I also want to address your picks, plus a few others that did weird stuff.

Brienne specifically I never really liked that much, but S3 was okay while S4-6 she was atrocious, representing basically the show's basest tendencies in glorifying violence and disregarding consequences for actions. S8, I actually think that there was something interesting there - being knighted was one of the best scenes of the final season, despite some of the trash surrounding it. But she gets capped off with Jaime abandoning her. It's not that bad an idea in concept, but in execution it's garbage, unfortunately.

As for Dany...
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There is a young, orphaned girl who inherits tales of ancestral glory and stolen birthrights from an abusive older brother as they wend their way through the streets of exile. She's married off to a terrifying horselord in a war pact, and as time goes on, she draws on the new horselord's identity to overcome her brother's influence. But between the violence of the men around her, she finds it within herself to stand up to both of them - one she sends to her death, and the other she forces into adopting more protection for the women he rapes. This mercy arguably leads to the death of her own child and husband, but just when she's about to give up in a show of vengeance, a literal miracle occurs and she is reborn with newfound, vulnerable power in baby dragons.

She takes the vulnerable power and searches for months for a new seat, and along the way she realizes that even people without war on their mind do have cruelty and the desire to take her dragons. As those dragons grow, she finds them more and more effective bargaining chips and weapons. Identifying with the enslaved, she justifies treachery and slaughter to free them and topple the patriarchal regimes that surround her. She makes anyone who participates in slavery her enemies and sees her weapons as her own children.

But with dreams of re-conquest on her mind, the girl realizes that the devastation she leaves in her wake is irresponsible, even to the people she has freed. She spends time trying to rein in the dragons which made her powerful and learning diplomacy, which she has virtually never had to use. The more idealistic or punitive laws she attempts to enforce, the more violence she incites, because the people will never accept her as their ruler. Even marrying one of them does not buy her the will of the people, and finally her dragons are unleashed again, and she decides that she is done trying to rule and more interested in conquest. She slaughters what remains of her enemies and invades her homeland.

Royally fucking up Essos gives the girl more of a conscience before waging war this time, and alleged new friends appear all around her. She again has to chain her dragons to resist taking over the world by conquest, trying to do things the "right" way. But even in what she thinks of as her homeland, she is constantly viewed as an outsider. The longer she waits to strike militarily in hopes of winning over the people, the weaker she becomes politically - the opposite of her intent. Her allies begin to die, which causes her impetuously to make a half-measures display of force. That display of force winds up being the most successful maneuver, but she is castigated by her advisors for it.

Choosing to listen to her advisors once again, the would-be conqueror is pulled into fighting a completely different war from the war of conquest - the war for the fate of the world. She sacrifices her people, her closest friends, and even her child to win that war. And in turn, she is spurned by her lover, continues to be treated as the outsider, and has to contend with the evil usurper who profited off of her choice to prioritize humanity over politics. When the last of her friends is killed in front of her eyes and the people she wants to liberate still seem to have no will and her advisors turn from shitty and half-hearted to utterly treasonous, she finally stops listening to them and unleashes what military force she has left, taking no survivors. With no more political ambitions, she now only has conquest and the sad hope for love. But even in that she's wrong, and she dies from being betrayed by the last person she thinks she can trust.
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When I lay it out like that, on paper, Dany has a fucking great character arc, front to back. In fact, I'm really impressed, almost astounded, by the story arc. Even more astonishing is the fact that it's butchered so badly that I can only appreciate so much of it on paper instead of on screen.

Dany is one of the characters who had her absolute strongest single-season arc in S1 alone when you consider acting/writing/plot altogether. S2 is a total waste of time ("Where are my dragons?!") and S3/4 is the most fun as she sweeps Slaver's Bay.

From there, Emilia Clarke's acting skill and the clusterfuck of plot and writing prevent the ruling of Meereen from being any fun, but at least there's an effort to understand the other side and balance compassion with her compulsion to solve problems with violence, though given that violence is supposed to lead to a tragic end, the writers' glorification of it seems like inconsistency of ton from the showrunners' perspective. It's tempting to say that we're viewing things from Dany's POV and that's why slaughtering those brown slavers to liberate those brown slaves is so exciting, but given how the show goes, it's nearly impossible to give that sort of credit to them.

The love story with Jon is another good idea that's hilariously awful in execution, somehow both rushed (in screen time) and repetitive (in the dialogue that arises). The advice that prevents Dany from just taking over King's Landing immediately is godawful, because we know who Cersei is. It's even more embarrassing that the advice comes from Tyrion! What makes Dany's decision to go ham on King's Landing unforgivable is that she does it when all her political ends are already achieved and that the attack is solely on civilians. This is never once hinted at as something she might want to do. When I write out the plot and ignore the badness of the dialogue/advice and point out the actual motivations, Dany's actions make sense. However, the show illustrates this incredibly poorly. It wants us to hear Varys/Tyrion saying that Dany might go insane, look at Dany's face getting pissed off, and then suddenly see her going US-in-South Vietnam in King's Landing and get it. (This leads to another point about how the writers expect super-stupid viewers in many cases, but then expect us to infer tons of motivations and explanations via non-verbal cues. Does not work, but can be its own post.)

By the way, I complained before about Roose Bolton's death. That extends not just to writing but direction. The choice to film Dany's death the exact same way as Roose's is god-awful. But I'm not surprised that they did it that way for Dany given that they thought such a fucking stupid death for Roose made sense.
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this took way longer than i expected so next time i'll try to cover bran/jon/theon (a different issue) and maybe discuss how upset i am about my favorite characters turning into shit
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Completely agree. Well-written. I loved the Dany character arc laid out. The most infuriating thing is how easily they could have made it super good but they consistently made the worst choices.

Almost every character had the best arc S1, but especially Dany

They did pick her back up in S5ish though which was cool but too little too late
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I thought I'd have more to say about Bran, but he's a really disappointing one. He's the most magically linked human of the show and we spent a lot of time learning stuff from his POV. He doesn't get to spend much time being active throughout the first half of the show - he learns about lordship and politics, thrust into an unlikely ruling position in Winterfell, and learns what it is to lose your family and your home as well as what it means to be a greenseer and skinchanger.

But Bran's active decisions throughout this first half of the series are rather few. He is saved by Maester Luwin, shepherded by Osha, and literally carried by Hodor, Meera, and Jojen, who impart knowledge upon him. His decisions are essentially limited to warging Hodor.

When Bran returns from his hiatus in S5, puberty has not been kind to him. He's tall but has lost all of the appeal in his face. The writers aren't kind to him either - he essentially gets to make one decision - idiotically disobeying the Three-Eyed Raven's instruction not to be an idiot about when he uses his powers - and afterward essentially is wiped off the face of the planet. Bran never once again shows curiosity about the world, which was one of his defining characteristics, and he becomes a meme well before Season 8's trash. Meera Reed receives one of the worst sendoffs in Thrones history - even the Sand Snakes fare better - and he spends the rest of his time dumping exposition and coming up with one of the worst plans in history.

Bran's motivation at this point is extremely unclear. He is mostly omniscient, including seemingly about the future. He winds up on the Iron Throne after admittedly telling Jon about his parentage and cooking up that shit scheme to kill win the Battle of Winterfell. And when he is granted the Iron Throne based on Tyrion's speech (more on this later, good god), he says... "Why do you think I came all this way?"

... This seriously muddles everything we think we know about Bran. He claims not even to be Bran anymore, so who the fuck just got enseated upon the rulership of King's Landing? Why is this narratively satisfying in any way? Does Bran actually have political ambitions? We're told he'll fly, but he doesn't seem to enjoy doing anything. Are we supposed to take it that Bran manipulated the course of events such that he would gain the throne at the expense of his political rivals in Jon and Dany? Bran winding up on the throne is dumb enough, but these questions are raised in almost a "Gotcha!" method by that comment.

Like, what? What is this characterization? What is this arc? How much of Bran is left? Are we supposed to take him at his word that he's basically a supervillain who conned his way onto the throne with no claim? Bran is one of the first POVs we get and his journey spans the whole show and he winds up "winning" the titular game. So in this strongly character-driven narrative, why do we know nothing about him?

Suffice it to say, massive disappointment. Also, as I mentioned before, it's got to be insanely difficult for GRRM to make this move make any sense, and that's got to be another reason why the books will never come out.
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I think the show would have been vastly improved had the major twist been that Dany and Jon are (predictably) both candidates for the throne like everyone assumed and then, with six episodes left (in my fantasy the last season would have had more episodes), Bran reveals his hand as the main and final antagonist of the show after the White Walkers were defeated. I read an article once that proposed that when Bran says he isn't Bran anymore he means it- he's the former old man Raven that didn't really die now inhabiting Bran's body which makes him Brandon Bloodraven, the Targaryen. Which explains why he hates both Jon and Dany and wants them against each other.

Meera's sendoff pains me every time I think about it. She was my favorite "underrated" character for years. I pretty much came to terms with the likelihood that her 7x03 (I think?) exit was all I'd get when her actress didn't seem to be popping up during either the filming phase or the pre-season marketing phase. But it still ticks me off. Honestly, it ticks me off more than anything in the show's history sans the rushed nature of Daenerys' turn.

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Just want to say that this is a very well written topic, and I love seeing the mix of weighing pros and cons, which a lot of Game of Thrones viewers are incapable of. Keep it up! Great topic!
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Jon

Jon is unique because he's perhaps the single latest-peaking character. He's one of the most boring characters in both Seasons 1 and 2. Part of that is due to Kit Harington's poor acting, but he's also just written as a mopey dude with entitlement issues and a very typical "hero's journey" type of setup (that nearly every other character avoids). Like, I absolutely didn't need Jon saving the Lord Commander's life and then being gifted a magic sword. The Great Ranging, for the most part, is also visually confusing and extremely bland, and he participated in some cringeworthy moments talking about his bastard birth.

It's when Jon meets Ygritte that things become more interesting by a great margin - they have some really nice chemistry, and other than that budding romance, Jon's main actions are physical - particularly climbing the Wall, fighting mutineers, and defending Castle Black. As the words Jon says become more meaningful, the sour seriousness with which the show treats him becomes less eyeroll-y. (It also helps that Ygritte actually takes him down a few pegs.)

Jon's storyline might singlehandedly be what carries Season 5. No more rebelling against authority; he's placed in a position of power that is actually rather political. He gets yet more physical scenes - Hardhome is by far the best scene of S5 - and becomes defined by his visions of how to prepare for the Great War: by unifying generational enemies. But by placing too much weight on his great vision and not enough on placating the people he's leapfrogged politically, Jon gets himself killed.

Season 6 Jon has a more disillusioned man whose first act upon returning to life is to execute a child. But reunited with family, he finally joins the political landscape and has to campaign for allies across the North. While winning the Battle of the Bastards is essentially bullshit and doesn't rely that much on Jon's character, the effect of winning it is really thrilling - being crowned King in the North. Jon's ability to inspire loyalty by leading from the front line parallels Robb's and becomes one of his defining characteristics, but he also takes Tywin Lannister's advice to lift up those who bend the knee.

... And then Seasons 7 and 8 happen and they are rough. Jon immediately abandons that post in the North and goes to meet Dany because that's where the plot is headed, I guess, and because they need to fall in love. He's by far the iconic character of the show at this point (because the fewer the divergent storylines, the fewer the characters with agency) and he winds up losing agency as he's jerked around allegedly by his own ideas, but more by the plot - a parlay with Cersei?! Finding a single wight?!

Jon then goes on to discover that his father is Rhaegar Targaryen. Dany is let down badly by writing and execution in S8 - she has a fantastic arc. But even on paper, since we have no inner monologue, we never once see the knowledge of Jon's parenthood affect him, other than telling Dany they can't hook up anymore. The effect is all on Dany, which yet again removes Jon's agency. Now that said, it's cool watching Jon completely outside his element as he talks about using dragons offensively against Cersei in his blind loyalty to Cersei... but this is never once explored with any depth and he winds up killing Dany based a lot on Tyrion's advice.

Given where Jon was in Seasons 5 and 6 - and where he had come from to get there - I'd say Jon probably wins the crown of steepest decline in the final two seasons. That said, the show's biggest dip in writing quality took place between 4 and 5, so let's move on to Arya and Tyrion next.
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So is it appropriate to say the best characters in the show are Ned Stark and Syrio Forel?
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Never understood the massive Syrio Forel fandom

TomNook posted...

Just want to say that this is a very well written topic, and I love seeing the mix of weighing pros and cons, which a lot of Game of Thrones viewers are incapable of. Keep it up! Great topic!

Yeahhh. Agree!

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this will continue!
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OK, so this part of the answer is long overdue, but as I said before, Tyrion and Arya are my picks for worst declines. Tyrion even moreso than Arya probably, but I'll talk quickly about both. These are my two favorite characters through four seasons. The second half of the series botches things so badly I'm now too ashamed even to make a favorite character list at all.

Arya has always been defined by her humanity and ability to survive, with a strong identity. This comes through strongly in the books but is just as clear in the show, with an incredibly charismatic actress. While "other girls are stupid" is a bit of a tired trope, Arya embodies it well in a world that undervalues and oppresses its more conventional women. She develops skills of war and refuses to capitulate to stronger men, and though she tries her hardest to disguise herself, she's always seen for what she is - Gendry recognizes that she is a boy and not a girl; Tywin recognizes she is a Northerner; and The Hound remembers that she's Ned Stark's girl.

Westeros has pretty much gone to shit by the end of Arya's education-by-raiding with The Hound, so off she goes to Essos, and almost immediately her storyline goes to shit. Jaqen H'ghar is an incredible mysterious force in S2 and he... mostly just hangs out in S5 and becomes incredibly unimpressive. Arya's arc here is supposed to be this conflict between becoming "no one" and staying herself with Needle. The problem is, it's never particularly clear what this desire to become "no one" actually means, and we're never once sold that Arya actually wants to become "no one" - the slaying of Meryn Trant happens literally before her first kill. I've covered how bad the S6 stuff is, where this Waif girl randomly becomes Arya's nemesis and Arya very clearly has no interest in executing any of the Faceless Men's tasks. This results in the erstwhile Jaqen telling her "You have become no one." Uh okay.
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It seems briefly like this is going to have some awesome payoff. Arya uses deception and face-changing to massacre the Frey clan. It's a stupid indulgence in violence and it's deliciously enjoyable: "Winter came for House Frey." It appears that she remembers who she is when she discovers Nymeria en route to assassinating Cersei, so she returns home.

This all has the promise of a real character arc: after killing her enemies and relishing it, Arya realizes that it does not bring her fulfillment and that what really matters is family and humanity. But the moment she sets foot back in Winterfell, her antagonizing of Sansa and the Littlefinger bullshit reveal that the writers had no fucking clue what to do with her. The real reason Arya is in Winterfell isn't for her character; it's for the same reason Daenerys gets beset by Euron and saddled with Tyrion's shit advice two episodes after turning her grip on Slaver's Bay to iron by using her dragons: because the writers love Lena Headey and they wanted her empowered for the rest of the series, even though it made no sense storywise. Why do Sansa and Arya fight? Not because of their distrust as kids and the scars that have been left on them, but so we can have Sansa dramatically turn on Littlefinger in the season finale instead of immediately laughing at him for thinking that bringing the Knights of the Vale to the North was somehow a good idea. (Littlefinger is a fucking idiot for this, but whatever, not the right place for that.)

It gets even worse when the show forgets that Arya's badassness comes from being an assassin who learns to overcome physical disadvantages. She evidently outduels Brienne in single combat and then apparently has the capability to single-handedly slay the Army of the Dead, unless she's hiding in the stacks of the library.

Arya's actress is so good that sometimes she can still manage to pull it off. She has incredibly expressive eyes that actually make 8x05 work. She still cares about the smallfolk and she's the best POV character. It's just a shame that once again, directorial and tone consistency loses to "looking/sounding cool," because her contribution to the (anti)climactic confrontation between Jon and Dany is... "I know a killer when I see one." Thanks for the insight, killa - glad you were able to tell us that after witnessing her lay utter waste to a city that surrendered.

Sailing to the next adventure would have been a good ending for Arya if it felt remotely earned or in keeping with her after S4 at all (the look of wonder on Arya's face whenever she travels is magnificent), but the writing lets her down over and over and over and a great character turns into a meaningless avatar.
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Arya: We are family, the four of us, The last of the Starks.

Also Arya: Peace out bitchesssssssssssssss
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Essentially, everything about Tyrion sucks after S4. His agency is tremendously reduced; he is no longer the main character of any given storyline. He's Jorah's prisoner, then slavers' prize, then a Samuel Beckett character waiting for Godoterys. Daenerys and Tyrion overlap in Meereen for the span of maybe fifteen minutes of screen time - spread out over a season where she is in the Dothraki Sea - before Tyrion declares that he is going to dedicate himself to her forever. He then spends the rest of the series giving horrendous advice, though the absolute worst of it is telling Dany repeatedly to trust Cersei and have mercy on her.

Inexplicably, he survives this and somehow people listen to him in the final scene of the show. Why can he do this? Because Peter Dinklage is the face of the show and we like him. I hate talking meta-motivation as much I do, but when there is no in-universe explanation, you're essentially forced to look at the unseemly facts - that the logic of audience expectations, actors' egos, and writers' biases dictate the events of the show, rather than character or logic.

If I have to boil down a core issue of the way the writers treat Arya herself, it's that she becomes wish fulfillment for the writers based on what they think the audience wants. It's actually pretty unclear what role Arya will play in the books' storyline (other than being someone we root for), at the end of ADWD and from her preview chapter of TWOW. The lack of source material hurts Arya pretty badly I'd say.

For Tyrion, we have a different issue, and it comes more directly from the books: In ADWD, Tyrion 1. gets involved in a bunch of politics that the showrunners have decided to cut, 2. gets involved with a bunch of garbage characters, and 3. most importantly, is going to be a morally reprehensible villain. Like protecting Cersei from Arya and Dany (and hell, the peasants of King's Landing) because Lena Headey is too iconic to depose before the finale, the writers protect Peter Dinklage as well. The problem is, they protect Tyrion's morality from himself, not from the plot.

The writers actually tip their hands in S4 - still a great Tyrion season - by making Shae someone Tyrion could absolutely love, and then by having Tyrion kill her in self-defense, and then by changing the nature of Jaime's final visit to Tyrion in the Black Cells. This gives Tyrion a romantic storyline to make him more truly sympathetic and protects him from being a murderer, plus protects the bromance he has with Jaime. As for the fact that Shae's character is butchered for this? Well, whatever. We pretty much gloss over the patricide, too.

This is not to say that sticking with Tyrion in the books would have been a great idea. Tyrion in ADWD essentially rapes a serving girl, fantasizes about raping Cersei, and sics the Golden Company on Westeros, encouraging the continuation of war after the continent has bled for the entire Stark-Lannister civil war. There are indications he'll reform himself with this garbage Penny character as a morality pet, but for the moment, that's still unclear in the books' mess. The bizarre mini-possibly-one-scene-only subplot of Tyrion being in love with Dany seems highly likely to be a GRRM invention, though Tyrion will probably be much lustier.

It's not easy to write a character who's supposed to be smart like Tyrion if you're allowing him agency. The problem is that for the plot to work, Tyrion essentially cannot have any. If he's not mindlessly devoted to his family in S7/8, then you can't have those "omg acting" scenes between him and Cersei, and you can't rely on Cersei to generate conflict anymore. So the difficulty is understandable and we should have expected the dropoff. But the consequences don't seem to be there: WHY is his blind spot this massive? WHY does Dany keep trusting him despite telling him sucking? WHY does anyone listen to him in the series finale?
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they've been whitewashing tyrion since the beginning, it just finally caught up with them.
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i believe @neonreaper might have asked about best seasons, but commenting on this discussion now:

- Season 1: one of the more consistent in quality. There are definitely bad parts, but everything clicks nicely here. Ned and Dany have excellent single-season storylines and you've got other fantastic supporting one-offs in Robert Baratheon and Khal Drogo. Jon is a low point and Littlefinger sucks, but otherwise it feels tightly woven with an intentional sort of unraveling at the end as the characters continue to spread out.

- Season 2: Tyrion defense of King's Landing from Stannis is another of the single-season plots and represents a lot of fun. Some mediocre players are introduced here - Stannis is dour and Brienne sucks - but the way things simmer here throughout most of the season is great. Another fantastic single-season subplot, though by far one of the grimmest of the show: Theon in Winterfell. It's almost inexplicable that the character managed six unremarkable seasons after such an astounding one-off. But it's a season where plot progression in the War of the Five Kings feels like a bit of a slog as we start trying to track lots of different characters. Both Dany and Jon have bad storylines here.

- Season 3: One of the most consistent seasons. Tywin and Tyrion hold down the fort in King's Landing with Margaery and Sansa adding some levity. The Stark-Lannister war comes to a violent and total end at the Twins. Jaime Lannister shows why he's called the Kingslayer and... whoa. Outside of the Seven Kingdoms, Dany performs the most enjoyable of the show and Jon actually smiles. If there are issues with S3, it may be that the plot feels thinly spread and appears to be slow at points up until the end. Lowlights include Stannis moaning for an entire season, Theon and Ramsay's torture porn, Sam's increased screentime, and Jojen Reed's actor.

- Season 4: Arguably my favorite season, it has perhaps the highest highs of the series, delivering most of the climaxes of the first trilogy (Red Wedding aside) and some interesting new lows as the writing flaws start coming in. The writers begin to have more freedom here and some of it is great - Tywin educating Tommen on ruling is one of my all-time favorite show-only scenes, and giving Kit Harington a chance to exact some violence in Craster's Keep ain't bad (though the torture porn to establish the villains is rough). The Red Viper becomes the single best character introduced after Season 3 and has probably my favorite fight and dialogue scene; Arya and the Hound have one of the best buddy-cop romps I've ever seen. But the way Shae and Tywin's exit is handled, the bizarre skeleton fight, an aborted Greyjoy rescue, and Brienne randomly deciding to fight the Hound portend the drop in quality to come.

- Season 5: Jon has his best single-season arc here with Hardhome as one of the latter half of the series's best episodes, but the lack of and poor quality of source material really start taking their toll here. We essentially lose Tyrion as a good character; The High Sparrow is the opposite of fun; Ramsay's torture porn returns; and Dorne is just straight-up bizarre in its badness. Character deaths are risky, and we can finally start to see them taking a toll, as the show loses a lot of the fabric that knitted it together, stabilizing, charismatic presences: Tyrion's wits, Tywin's command, Aemon's wisdom, Robb's daring, Joffrey's unique blend of cowardice and psychopathy. The show leans more on other characters, some of who can bear the load and others who can't - Roose Bolton is admirable, but Ramsay is no Joffrey - his Mary Sues isn't nearly as fun as the boy's shrill incompetence. The collapse of Arya's subplot hurts badly, while Dany spends the season with her dragons chained. Definitely one of the worst seasons.
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- Season 6 is comparable to Season 4 in terms of the the height of its highs and the lowness of its lows, but with fewer highs and many more lows. S6 moves the show clearly into cinematic territory, relying far more on direction than on writing (with the possible exception of one great scene with Jon). The best moments of S6 are mostly visual (though many of them make you feel things while asking that you turn your brain off): Jon executing four men by hanging in a single swing of his knife, Arthur Dayne versus six dudes including Ned Stark, Cersei blowing up the Sept of Baelor, Battle of the Bastards, Hold the Door, Dany exploiting being fireproof, Arya killing Walder Frey. But it's also got a lot of dumbness, starting with King's Landing becomes by far the least interesting setting of the show, a boringness that actually extends across the Narrow Sea and afflicts Tyrion as well, but there's also Arya's worst season to date. S6 weirdly has the shows single best episode in The Winds of Winter. It's evidence of the outsize weight that an incredibly memorable finale can have on the way you perceive a story.

- Season 7 is where you can no longer measure the show by its storylines plural. It's the most disjointed season, with the plot randomly deciding to pick up and slow down because that's where the pieces need to be. It's the first season where I had to justify the characters' decision based on the story's needs. The show anticipates lots of amazing battles, but aside from one phenomenal sequence as the dragons wreck the Lannister-Tarly coalition, we don't feast on those. Instead we focus on the bad plotting and declining dialogue and oh god that trip beyond the Wall just kill me. Highlights: Sam's shit-cleaning montage, graphic fiery violence, Euron's ridiculous naval battle. Lowlights: a fucking massively fortified Highgarden apparently just collapsing because "The Tyrells weren't very good militarily anyway" (read: they don't have any important main characters left), Tyrion trusting Cersei, Cleganebowl not happening yet, the wight plot X1000 as it's the pivotal event of the story.

- Season 8 does some things well, and I'll get to those eventually. The best structural advantage S8 has over any other season is that it follows two storylines. In fact, the best part of S8 is probably the brand new credit sequence, and maybe some of those sweet outfits. The worst part is basically everything else I've mentioned in the topic so far.

Summary:

Height of highs:

4 >= 6 >= 3 >= 2 >= 1 >= 5 >> 7 >>> 8

Consistency of highs:

3 > 2 >= 1 > 4 >= 6 >= 5 >> 7 > 8

Lowness of lows:

1 > 3 > 4 > 2 > 6 > 5 > 7 > 8

Frequency of lows:

3 > 1 > 4 > 2 > 7 > 6 > 5 > 8

Overall:

4 >= 3 >= 6 >= 1>= 2 >>>5 > 7 >>> 8
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So was Elia still in the dungeon with her daughters corpse when Dany destroyed the Red Keep?
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SeabassDebeste posted...

then a Samuel Beckett character waiting for Godoterys.

I loled
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What exactly did you not like in the Shae and Tywin finale?

I read the books years before the show was made and have never reread them, so maybe my memory of those events was fuzzy, but I remember looking forward to the Tywin/Shae climax in the show and when it happened, it was exactly what I expected and wanted, and I thought it was executed better than I ever thought possible.

Just like the Red Viper!
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I think most of the overarching problems with the show past its coverage of Storm of Swords is the extent to which it is divorced from the magic aspects.

Bran in particular makes little to no sense without the context of his magic powers existing in a world that has more magic in it.

As for Daneryd her arc was always going to be undermined by this sentence you wrote:

When one person has the Dragons does political skill actually matter?

The answer isn't complex. It's no. Simple. And from there the options are Mary Sue happily ever after or some version of what happened.


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I feel like they should have had the dragons, the Whites, and (maybe) Bran die before the finale- and then all the surviving political shakers come out and have an intrigue throw-down. I always wanted Baelish to make it and sit on the Iron Throne for maybe an hour before someone else got him. He made it.

Interesting that you reviewed Tyrion and Arya together, as it was revealed that originally GRRM was going to have him meet her, fall madly in love and have Arya keep on rejecting him. This idea got cut along with Arya/Jon getting it on.
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up, will respond to some points/complain more soon
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bump oops
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