Board 8 > New Easter egg discovered in Super Mario 64

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://screenrant.com/super-mario-64-donkey-kong-easter-egg-found/amp/

This one COULD be a coincidence but it's a bit too uncanny IMO.

It's amazing that 25 years later people are still making new discoveries about this game.

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This feels like kind of a stretch

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Can't wait for somebody to post a topic like this about the DK musical references in Jump Up Super Star in 20 years

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Yeah, Iunno if this one was intended.

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I'm torn between "this is too much of a stretch to be a thing" and "there's no way that someone else hasn't come up with this previously".

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Ehhhh, this is kind of borderline.

It feels like it requires too much work to be an intended easter egg. You've gotta isolate that little bit, change the sound of it, speed it up, and put it on repeat. That feels less like an easter egg and more like a scene from the next National Treasure.

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Well, it's possible to use motifs in clever ways, and Koji Kondo is known for doing that quite a bit - there's quite a bit of it within SM64 itself. So it's possible this was a very sly nod. The context here could make some sense for it, too - a musical motif that's meant to remind us of Mario's earliest days as we do a dramatic sweep in to see how far he's come now that we're in full 3-D! (A terrible reminder that there were only 15 years between Donkey Kong and Super Mario 64, but 25 years between SM64 and today) But it isn't a remarkably unique melodic sequence, and it doesn't particularly remind even an astute listener of Donkey Kong right away, so like I said, it's borderline. I think it's possible Kondo had intentions there, and it's possible he did not.

One other argument I would give against this being the Donkey Kong motif - you could also make the argument that this is actually SM64's stage motif, not DK - compare the part we're comparing to DK to the Bob-omb Battlefield line. Of course, this could also be an argument for! But since it follows a little stinger of the castle theme, I feel like this is sort of a more likely connection.

The only other time the game evokes an earlier Mario theme that I can think of is Hazy Maze Cave's repurposing of both the underground theme from SMB1 and the airship theme from SMB3, but these have more obvious thematic connections and are a lot less ambiguously used.

There are people who haven't made this connection?

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I remember one time someone thought that Totaka's song was hidden in the hit sound effects in Wii Sports tennis but it wasn't

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StealThisSheen posted...

You've gotta isolate that little bit, change the sound of it, speed it up, and put it on repeat. That feels less like an easter egg and more like a scene from the next National Treasure.

in fairness, changing the sound and putting it on repeat is not necessary. those are just things the video maker did to make the comparison to the donkey kong music more obvious ("see? this clearly IS from donkey kong!").

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I hear it and think it sounds closer if you use the dkc intro and compare it to the mario 64 intro

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

in fairness, changing the sound and putting it on repeat is not necessary. those are just things the video maker did to make the comparison to the donkey kong music more obvious ("see? this clearly IS from donkey kong!").

Yeah, all we're talking are a few notes of a motif.

This is also Koji Kondo we're talking about. Examine his entire body of work - the chances this wasn't deliberate are very low.

I won't say I KNOW he did it on purpose, but as a composer, there's a 100% chance he would have at least noticed after he wrote it.

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The original Donkey Kongs music was written by Yukio Kaneoka, not Koji Kondo, for what its worth

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This reminds me of that time Gametrailers thought Totaka's song was in Wii Sports.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

in fairness, changing the sound and putting it on repeat is not necessary. those are just things the video maker did to make the comparison to the donkey kong music more obvious ("see? this clearly IS from donkey kong!").

Well, my point is that if you're gonna do an easter egg like that, wouldn't you want to make it more noticeable? Apparently the amount of people that caught it is insanely low if it's making news now. It's less a case of making it "more" obvious, and more a case of... Like nobody would even think of it if the guy hadn't made those changes.

EDIT: Obviously it's not impossible it was intended. It just feels weird to make it so hard to recognize. This isn't a case where it was just hidden so well it took somebody this long to find it. It's a case where it doesn't really sound like it to the average person unless you make alterations.

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Now, that said, I'd buy that they may have intentionally used those notes just because. I'm just not sure they did it intentionally in a "Hey, people will appreciate this!" kind of way.

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The world of business decisions can be a wonky one compared to reality, so I can totally buy someone in some meeting discussed ways to pay homage to the classic games, with this being the result. Sample a little ditty, jazz it up a bit, and here we are.

Could equally be the sound guy's own decisions to use the sound library as inspiration. Could equally be a happy coincidence.

Regardless of how it occurred, it is pretty neat that the connection can be made.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Now, that said, I'd buy that they may have intentionally used those notes just because. I'm just not sure they did it intentionally in a "Hey, people will appreciate this!" kind of way.

oh yeah, i agree. if it IS an "easter egg," it's probably more like an inside joke than something kondo expected many people to notice.

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SovietOmega posted...

The world of business decisions can be a wonky one compared to reality, so I can totally buy someone in some meeting discussed ways to pay homage to the classic games, with this being the result. Sample a little ditty, jazz it up a bit, and here we are.

Could equally be the sound guy's own decisions to use the sound library as inspiration. Could equally be a happy coincidence.

Regardless of how it occurred, it is pretty neat that the connection can be made.

I think this would 100% just be the composer's personal decision to have a little fun, there's no way something this granular came from the top. In most cases composers kind of work in their own bubble, there might have been some direction from the director to use familiar Mario themes but that's about it I think.

Mr Lasastryke posted...

oh yeah, i agree. if it IS an "easter egg," it's probably more like an inside joke than something kondo expected many people to notice.

I don't know - like I argued earlier, there is actually a very significant thematic reason why you would use the Donkey Kong motif in this specific place, so it is possible that it was more than an easter egg, and that it really was meant to evoke a dramatic transition from 1981 to 1996, and that it just ended up being too subtle and we were all too dumb to catch it.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I don't know - like I argued earlier, there is actually a very significant thematic reason why you would use the Donkey Kong motif in this specific place, so it is possible that it was more than an easter egg, and that it really was meant to evoke a dramatic transition from 1981 to 1996, and that it just ended up being too subtle and we were all too dumb to catch it.

Yeah, but to be fair, it also sounds like parts in Bob-omb Battlefield, which doesn't really have that thematic reasoning.

It could be either way.

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StealThisSheen posted...

Yeah, but to be fair, it also sounds like parts in Bob-omb Battlefield, which doesn't really have that thematic reasoning.

It could be either way.

Yeah, that was my counter-argument to my own argument - that it's simply the Bob-omb Battlefield motif which the game uses a lot (which is also the Cool Cool Mountain and Princess's Secret Slide motif, a more obvious motif usage that people sometimes miss), following the usage of the Princess's Castle theme. It really could be either one, and I do think the latter is PROBABLY more likely - it seems more cohesive with the way music in this game is generally used.

Same notes, same rhythm, the intro to the game paying homage to the first appearance of the character for the first 3D appearance, we're talking a 98% chance that this is an intentional choice.

Especially considering this is Koji Kondo, a guy who uses motifs more than John Williams, there's really no reason to believe this isn't an intentional decision.


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Hans Zimmer put a nod to Gladiator music in his Pirates of the Caribbean theme song.

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Same notes, same rhythm, the intro to the game paying homage to the first appearance of the character for the first 3D appearance, we're talking a 98% chance that this is an intentional choice.

Especially considering this is Koji Kondo, a guy who uses motifs more than John Williams, there's really no reason to believe this isn't an intentional decision.

I just can't follow the "paying homage to the first appearance" logic, though, since it's a jingle heard all throughout the game, in various forms, so it's not like some special thing you only hear for that moment.

That's why I lean toward it less being an intentional throwback/homage moment, and more just... He felt like basing things on the motif. I don't think they really expected people to instantly catch what it is.

We may just be using "intentional" differently here, though. When I say "not intentional," I mean that I don't think it was something they intended everybody to just make the connection on right away. I think that's what Lasa meant by "inside joke." They knew what they were doing, but they probably didn't expect the majority of people to get it.

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SEP, all due respect, I don't think you're saying anything.

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This may be a bit of semantics at this point.

Was using a past motif an accident? Almost impossible.

Did they expect everyone to notice? Doubtful.

Is it an "easter egg"? Well, to me that term suggests something more akin to a hidden thing you can do or go to or trigger or something. A song in and of itself being an "easter egg" just doesn't jive in my head.

But...is it something obscured from being obvious and a delightful moment when discovered? Yeah...kinda sounds like an easter egg. We need better words.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

SEP, all due respect, I don't think you're saying anything.

I'm saying that to me, an "easter egg" implies something people are supposed to find/discover. Something intentionally placed in a way for people to find and go "Oh, that's neat!"

The fact that almost nobody caught this apparently for over 20 years means, to me, either it's not an easter egg in that sense, or it's just a rather poorly done one, since.. Like literally nobody caught on to what it was for over 20 years. And it's not really something you discover in the game itself. You've gotta take it out and play with it a bit for the average person to truly get it.

So my point is basically what puns is saying. They probably intentionally used the motif, but not in a way that they expected everybody to notice. Thus, I question if it's a true "easter egg."

EDIT: It basically is a semantics thing. Is it a true "easter egg" if they didn't really intend/expect people to find it? There's probably a better term for it, but I'm drawing a blank.

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Easter Egg is absolutely a terrible term for it.

It's a musical theme used as a basic to write more music. That's all.

I also reject that they didn't intend people to notice it - I noticed it as a child. It's not OBVIOUS, but it isn't impossible to find, and the fact that they're trying to sell it as "discovered" is stupid. I don't think, if thought about, it was meant to be unmistakable, but it wasn't intentionally hidden either.

To conclude, it's intentional, it's not hidden, it's just... composition. Just standard compositional practice.

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My discovery of an Mario Kart 64 glitch where you can do the AB+spin on the banks of a river is probably far less known than this discovery

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Easter Egg is absolutely a terrible term for it.

It's a musical theme used as a basic to write more music. That's all.

I also reject that they didn't intend people to notice it - I noticed it as a child. It's not OBVIOUS, but it isn't impossible to find, and the fact that they're trying to sell it as "discovered" is stupid. I don't think, if thought about, it was meant to be unmistakable, but it wasn't intentionally hidden either.

To conclude, it's intentional, it's not hidden, it's just... composition. Just standard compositional practice.

We don't disagree, then. My main point of contention was the internet's reaction like it was some hidden thing like "Oh man they knew we'd shit bricks when we found it!" and it's like... It's just music. I don't think they really cared if people noticed or not.

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There are things that you've said that I think are wrong, but also, I think you've also been finding your words, so I'm sure we don't need to discuss them any further or so.

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masterplum posted...

This feels like kind of a stretch

StealThisSheen posted...

You've gotta take it out and play with it a bit for the average person to truly get it.

this i'm not sure about. like, i don't consider myself to have some kind of brilliant musical mind but once i got what part of the super mario 64 intro song this was about, i immediately thought "oh yeah that does sound like donkey kong doesn't it?" i didn't need it spoon-fed to me by changing the motif to a PSG chiptune kind of sound, speeding it up and putting it on repeat.

it's similar to how part of stranger in moscow by michael jackson sounds like the sonic 3 credits music. i don't need stranger in moscow rearranged to sound exactly like the credits song to understand the comparison.

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Well this topic certainly went places I didn't anticipate. I expected either a barrage of "cool"s or "old"s.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

this i'm not sure about. like, i don't consider myself to have some kind of brilliant musical mind but once i got what part of the super mario 64 intro song this was about, i immediately thought "oh yeah that does sound like donkey kong doesn't it?" i didn't need it spoon-fed to me by changing the motif to a PSG chiptune kind of sound, speeding it up and putting it on repeat.

it's similar to how part of stranger in moscow by michael jackson sounds like the sonic 3 credits music. i don't need stranger in moscow rearranged to sound exactly like the credits song to understand the comparison.

Well I mean the song in question has like nothing else to it, so sure if youre told it sounds like Donkey Kong youll just oh yeah, okay but the average person isnt remotely gonna notice without being told/shown the altered clip, which was mainly my point. Its not something blatant like Easter eggs usually are.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Well I mean the song in question has like nothing else to it, so sure if youre told it sounds like Donkey Kong youll just oh yeah, okay but the average person isnt remotely gonna notice without being told/shown the altered clip, which was mainly my point. Its not something blatant like Easter eggs usually are.

agreed.

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To be honest I never really noticed that this little opening tune even sounds like the main level theme. I put the main theme/snow theme/slider theme together obviously, but never realized the opening was part of that as well.

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this seems about as intentional as UR MR GAY

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Okay, for all you who think it's just a coincidence:



It's the SAME. THEME.

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im sorry, i dont speak linecircle
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The weirder thing about this is that it would have to mean the Bob-omb Battlefield theme is ALSO a reference to the Donkey Kong motif, and that really is entering "coincidence" territory for me

Para, that makes literally no sense. If he intended to base the soundtrack off of a single theme, then OF COURSE that theme will be prevalent throughout it all. By using a familiar theme but disguising it, you acquire a subconscious interest from the listener because it's familiar, but it not being flat-out obvious makes the music still fresh.

The problem is you're not looking at this from a composer's point of view.

It's as easy as saying "Okay, I need to write music for a game. They asked to make it sound new while still Mario. So let me grab a simple motif... ALL the way from the beginning of Mario's history, and just use that as the base for the soundtrack for this game."

Just consider it a Theme and Variations.

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HanOfTheNekos posted...

The problem is you're not looking at this from a composer's point of view.

Oh shut the fuck up Han.

Paratroopa1 posted...

Oh shut the fuck up Han.

he's right. what you're saying makes no sense. Bob-omb Battlefield a reference to SM64's main theme. SM64's main theme is a reference to Donkey Kong. Bob-omb Battlefield isn't a reference to Donkey Kong. This is all intuitive and non-contradictory
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Para, you're knowledgeable about music, have said good analysis in this topic, and you know what you're talking about.

It's why I'm confused, because everything you've said lends support to the thesis that, yes, the Super Mario 64 soundtrack is based on a theme from a prior game.

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NFUN posted...

he's right. what you're saying makes no sense. Bob-omb Battlefield a reference to SM64's main theme. SM64's main theme is a reference to Donkey Kong. Bob-omb Battlefield isn't a reference to Donkey Kong. This is all intuitive and non-contradictory

Alright well here's a fucking composer's point of view for you: until someone pulls up an interview from Kondo about the process of making Super Mario 64's music, we don't actually have any idea what the process of writing "SM64's main theme" was, and in which order he wrote these pieces. It's entirely possible the first thing he wrote ended up becoming what's now Bob-omb Battlefield, and that it just had a coincidental sequence of E G A G C in it, which is not exactly a spectacularly unique arrangement of notes, nor is it even exactly the Donkey Kong motif (which starts with C).

Paratroopa1 posted...

Alright well here's a fucking composer's point of view for you: until someone pulls up an interview from Kondo about the process of making Super Mario 64's music, we don't actually have any idea what the process of writing "SM64's main theme" was, and in which order he wrote these pieces. It's entirely possible the first thing he wrote ended up becoming what's now Bob-omb Battlefield, and that it just had a coincidental sequence of E G A G C in it, which is not exactly a spectacularly unique arrangement of notes, nor is it even exactly the Donkey Kong motif (which starts with C).

Let's try again: Bob-omb Battlefield is likely a reference to SM64's main theme. SM64's main theme is likely a reference to Donkey Kong. Bob-omb Battlefield in no way has to have anything directly to do with Donkey Kong which is the coincidence you were objecting to before. This scenario is extremely plausible
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