Current Events > Is it bad game design that you basically have to do Chill Penguin first?

(+) Yeah! (+)

jpenny2 posted...

Okay, so you can choose any other stage and handicap yourself until you get the Dash Boots.

Yes. Precisely. Finding the dash upgrade is supposed to be a reward for trying different stages. There's a reason it's the stage right next to the one it starts you on. If you follow natural impulses, the first stage you try will probably be either launch octopus or chill penguin.

I just don't see how it's bad design to coax the player into trying different things in a game all about finding upgrades and figuring out which bosses are weak to which weapons.

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Yes it is

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The exploration concept on its own is perfectly fine, it's just the execution that is questionable.

The problem with the dash is that it just basically affects everything in such a fundamental way.

I actually like to start with Storm Eagle and then go through the weapon cycle. I think his AI is fair. That is, if he's in the middle when he starts his shenanigans, you always can barely survive if you're right next to him and counteract as agressive as possible (like trying to jump over his tornado as much as possible). I always thought of Eagle as a moderately easy starter boss even without the dash.

Nevertheless the dash could have been handled way better, considering how fundamental the overall gameplay changes when acquiring it.

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the dash upgrade reads to me like a day 1 patch -- the game is made a lot faster and more fun and the player has more control after they get it. it's like if the player could skip getting it they'd have the choice between playing a bad game or a good one. but they can't, it's unmissable and barely contested at that. they just have to play slow mega man until they find it, or until the next playthrough where they beeline to it and all the ones after where they probably do the same.

i would ask why have that arbitrary phase where the player has to engage with platforming with weights on.

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Wouldn't make sense if it was fighting Aggressive Penguin first.


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RoseLuck2X22462 posted...

They should have made the dash be a default ability in X1

Exactly. There's a reason they start you the basic dash in every X game going forward

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Fluttershy posted...

i would ask why have that arbitrary phase where the player has to engage with platforming with weights on.

I think the primary reason for that is because it was the first Mega Man X game. Up until that point, every Mega Man game was played with no instant dash button, or dash jump. Nobody knew, for the very first time going in, that the dash was going to exist as it did. In fact, nobody knew what any of the armor upgrades did, or what the capsules looked like, or that the armor upgrades actually existed (unless the manual mentions specifics, I don't recall)

Basically...It was a brand new mechanic in a franchise that was already a few years old at that point. The designers introduced it in a very specific way in order to show us what the capsules were and what they did.

It was the first game with a dash--the leg armor had to do something, and in the first MMX the dash was a huge deal. What do you suppose the leg armor should have done in X if not enable the dash for the very first time in the series?

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If anything it encourages challenge runs by going after the other Mavericks without the dash

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BlueBoy675 posted...

If anything it encourages challenge runs by going after the other Mavericks without the dash

Honestly, this too. The structure of MMX is designed for second, third, fourth, etc. play-throughs. It's not just supposed to be a game beaten once and then shelved forever.

It's loaded with secrets both surface-level and much, much deeper. The leg upgrade is literally planted on the floor directly in your path and can't be missed. Meanwhile, think about things like the Hadouken. Or even the fact that you can use the Boomerang Cutter on certain bosses to slice off pieces of their body and disable certain attacks--you don't find those things out unless you experiment a lot. Or in the case of the spoiler, you basically have to know exactly how to get it.

Are secrets bad game design? Is having a focus on exploration and hidden items 'bad game design?'

Charged special weapons are locked behind the arm upgrade--is that bad game design?

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There is a huge difference between focus on exploration + hidden secrets and...
Fluttershy posted...

the dash upgrade reads to me like a day 1 patch

No one says the former is bad game design per se. What we are saying is that the concrete execution of the latter is heavily flawed.

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Yeah, it is. If the game gave at least some indication that you should do that level first, it would be fine. That particular upgrade is so important as to mean you're basically unwittingly choosing super hard mode if you happen to go at other levels first.

bump

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RoseLuck2X22462 posted...

They should have made the dash be a default ability in X1

Musourenka posted...

Exactly. There's a reason they start you the basic dash in every X game going forward

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's "bad" design, but there also no reason why it shouldn't be a default ability either.

It'd be like having to unlock being able to slide in MM3+
Not having it a serious handicap since the game is built around it

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HylianFox posted...

Not having it a serious handicap since the game is built around it

That's why it's literally impossible to miss. It's the introduction to the armor capsules, and it's very early in the level. It's not bad game design. It's classic game design, where exploration and trying different approaches were commonplace.

Five year olds had no trouble figuring it out. I would know, I was five when I first played it. I didn't beat the whole game until I was 8, though. The Sigma stages were just too much for me for a long while.

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Garioshi posted...

If Storm Eagle does his wind attack twice in a row, you just die.

this is true, and his stage is garbage. Also a few other bosses are damn near impossible without the weaknesses.

but I did mammoth first wayyyyy back when, and for fun Ive done Chameleon and boomerrang first a few times.

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

That's why it's literally impossible to miss.

That annoys me as well. You *have* to get the Foot parts, so doing an armorless run is impossible unless you cheat.

Another reason why I like the PSP version better. All the armor parts are completely optional and the Foot Parts aren't even in Chill Penguin's stage.
well, you do have to get the Z Buster but that's not until the very end anyway

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Speaking of the Z Buster now that *is* bad game design.

If you somehow miss getting the regular Arm Parts (which is easy for first-timers), the game rewards you with a better version later on that you can't miss. WTF is up with that?

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HylianFox posted...

the game rewards you with a better version later on that you can't mis

Isn't it the same? The only reason it makes sure you have that part is because the stage 3 charge shot is the only way to hurt Sigma's final form. That is, apart from the rolling shield, which has an ammo limit.

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megaman has always had problems with its open-ended stage ordering concept and this is just another aspect of that

so yes it's bad design

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

Isn't it the same? The only reason it makes sure you have that part is because the stage 3 charge shot is the only way to hurt Sigma's final form. That is, apart from the rolling shield, which has an ammo limit.

the X Buster upgrade fires two spiral shots that deal the same damage as a regular charge shot, but really only one of them can hit thanks to invincibility frames and such

the Z Buster fires a single, more powerful charge shot that's much more effective

it's a pretty big "fuck you" to the players who took the time to hunt down every upgrade
>_>

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HylianFox posted...

the Z Buster fires a single, more powerful charge shot that's more useful

Is that only in the psp game? Because that's definitely not in the SNES version lol

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

Is that only in the psp game? Because that's definitely not in the SNES version lol

https://megaman.fandom.com/wiki/X%27s_armors#Mega_Man_X_and_Mega_Man_Xtreme

Zero Buster: This version is obtainable from Zero if X hadn't obtained the capsule version by the time he defeats Vile. In the original version, the Zero Buster is the same as the Light Capsule version. In the PSP remake, this version is vastly different, firing a single large red shot that can deal four times the damage of the Light Capsule version (dealing 4 bars of life for every shot that hits the enemy boss, regardless of the enemy boss X faces in any battle).

huh, I guess you're right
I totally forgot that both busters are the same in the SNES version

it's still a "fuck you" to players who find everything, though
>_>

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HylianFox posted...

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's "bad" design, but there also no reason why it shouldn't be a default ability either.

It'd be like having to unlock being able to slide in MM3+
Not having it a serious handicap since the game is built around it

Bingo. And that's why I will always say X2 is superior to X1 and also the best of the series (even though I like X3 a little better).


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Eh. Every Mega Man game has an "optimal" order to do the levels in, and a big part of the fun is figuring that order out.

Chill Penguin is a less subtle one than others, though, admittedly.

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I dont like X3. It lacked soul compared to the first two. There was no good boss weapon that I enjoyed using either.

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I used to beat all of them without the boots because as a kid the legs always staying white when you use boss weapons pissed me off

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I used to enjoy messing around on the password screen of Mega Man X with an auto controller to find random passwords. Once I had Shotgun Ice without Dash Boots which is impossible normally

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Bass_X0 posted...

I used to enjoy messing around on the password screen of Mega Man X with an auto controller to find random passwords. Once I had Shotgun Ice without Dash Boots which is impossible normally

There are all kinds of interesting codes you can find, because of how the password system actually works. I've never experimented much, myself, but I used to see neat combinations on cheat sites way back in the day.

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2864
8418
3716

If anyone feels adventurous here's the password where Chill Penguin is defeated, and you have the heart tank from his stage, but no leg parts. Now play the rest of the game and report back.

and if you want a further handicap, here's the password without the heart tank

4764
8488
7716

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jsb0714 posted...

These are some weak ass excuses to drop a game.

I played the whole game. I had a thread about it lol. I just dropped the series after. Cuz I wasn't interested in the gameplay or music, which are everyone's draws to it

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Just so everybody knows, I just started up a game of MMX and attempted Storm Eagle first. No upgrades, no dash, no nothing. Killed him on the very first try and experienced no significant issues.

The dash is absolutely not required to beat him.

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