Current Events > The Federation in Star Trek are a bunch of pious hypocrites.

(+) Yeah! (+)

They talk about how they've evolved beyond war and strife but that's all they do with the other groups and species.

To be fair, I don't think they're ever the aggressor in any of those wars.

But yes, they are annoying.

Humans have evolved beyond war and strife among humans. Everyone is taken care of in a utopian communist system. People aspire to work for personal enrichment like a Soviet ideological proclamation come true.

The people who come to blows with the Federation-- who are way more than just humans, but tries to incorporate other peace loving people who have their shit sorted out to enrich each other --are fascists who expand through conquest and espionage, namely the Klingon empire, Romulan empire, Cardassian Union, and the Founders.

Verdekal posted...

They talk about how they've evolved beyond war and strife but that's all they do with the other groups and species.

Are they supposed to just let themselves be conquered when attacked by an aggressor?

Enclave posted...

Are they supposed to just let themselves be conquered when attacked by an aggressor?

Of course not but thats my point. They shouldn't act like they're so holier than thou.

Verdekal posted...

Of course not but thats my point. They shouldn't act like they're so holier than thou.

They're not the ones starting the wars though.

Spotted the Romulan.

Verdekal posted...

Of course not but thats my point. They shouldn't act like they're so holier than thou.

They are holier though

https://youtu.be/6VhSm6G7cVk?si=SK-1LiDsqBr-VS8d

The Federation is the most morally bankrupt and holier-than-thou organization in the galaxy.

They're also the only thing keeping the galaxy from being overrun.

Romulan shills post on CE?

Posting this clip is obligatory whenever a topic like this is made. One of the best scenes in all of Trek.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VhSm6G7cVk

Hey, the Imperialist Federation made the Dominion genetically engineer multiple slave races, infect entire planets with diseases, etc. They had no choice.
Actual Tankie arguments I've heard.

Verdekal posted...

Of course not but thats my point. They shouldn't act like they're so holier than thou.

I dunno. Off the top of my head Picard has always came off extremely respectful and a great pacifist to new planets and races.

K181 posted...

The Federation is the most morally bankrupt and holier-than-thou organization in the galaxy.

This isn't even close to being factually correct. Are you telling me they are more morally bankrupt than the Cardassians and the Romulans or the Dominion or even the Borg? Seriously? @K181

Verdekal posted...

Of course not but thats my point. They shouldn't act like they're so holier than thou.

But how are they not? They defend themselves they do not war monger.

Don't fall for this Romulan propaganda on CE.

The_Sock posted...

This isn't even close to being factually correct. Are you telling me they are more morally bankrupt than the Cardassians and the Romulans or the Dominion or even the Borg? Seriously? @K181

Those powers don't hide it. Genocide and conquest and taking over shit is their MO and they make no attempts to obsfucate their intentions beyond a minimal degree.

Meanwhile, the Federation hides behind the facade of a utopia and the ideals of the Prime Directive that allows them to handwaive preventable disasters as they see fit while also outright allowing for loads of underhanded seedy operations across the galaxy. And once their tendrils stick, they fight like hell to prevent anyone and anything from leaving.

Also, missed how I also said that they were still the best hope for the galaxy after or the video before.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/9/975a3470.jpg

Section 31 has done some really shady stuff. The Federation's a lot better than some other galactic powers in the Star Trek universe but their hands aren't totally clean.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/06abd8fa.jpg

Enclave posted...

Are they supposed to just let themselves be conquered when attacked by an aggressor?

i never saw the TOS, but as i understand it, that is exactly what happened to the Mirror Universe that Kirk visited at some point.
the one that was essentially a fascist state, somehow Kirk convinced them to go pacifist by one conversation, at which point they were immediately conquered, as shown in DS9

K181 posted...

Those powers don't hide it. Genocide and conquest and taking over shit is their MO and they make no attempts to obsfucate their intentions beyond a minimal degree.

Meanwhile, the Federation hides behind the facade of a utopia and the ideals of the Prime Directive that allows them to handwaive preventable disasters as they see fit while also outright allowing for loads of underhanded seedy operations across the galaxy. And once their tendrils stick, they fight like hell to prevent anyone and anything from leaving.

Also, missed how I also said that they were still the best hope for the galaxy after or the video before.

Did you see Picard season 2? The Confederation (A Federation who was once benevolent who became conquerors) was far, far worse than the Federation.

I kinda hate how The Federation turned into a corrupt allegory of current politics. Sure, there was the occasional crazy/rogue admiral or ambassador and even the group in ST6, but they were outliers. DS9, as great as it is, sort of started the trend. I hate the idea of Section 31 too. Sure it's "realistic", but the whole point is that humans have advanced beyond heinous crap like that for the most part.

McMarbles posted...

Hey, the Imperialist Federation made the Dominion genetically engineer multiple slave races, infect entire planets with diseases, etc. They had no choice.
Actual Tankie arguments I've heard.

Are you making a parallel to real life, or are Tankies really doing their typical crap over fiction too? I can believe it.

It makes no sense whatsoever that a tankie would defend the Founders

K181 posted...

Those powers don't hide it. Genocide and conquest and taking over shit is their MO and they make no attempts to obsfucate their intentions beyond a minimal degree.

Meanwhile, the Federation hides behind the facade of a utopia and the ideals of the Prime Directive that allows them to handwaive preventable disasters as they see fit while also outright allowing for loads of underhanded seedy operations across the galaxy. And once their tendrils stick, they fight like hell to prevent anyone and anything from leaving.

Also, missed how I also said that they were still the best hope for the galaxy after or the video before.

So this is your head canon or something?

The_Sock posted...

Did you see Picard season 2? The Confederation (A Federation who was once benevolent who became conquerors) was far, far worse than the Federation.

No, but I am aware of that. I wouldn't really put an alt timeline polity on the same scale of relativism as the actually established powers. Kind of akin to how the mirror universe is just a warped way to explore what if concepts.

And, to be clear, the Federation is far from being the worst entity out there. But they're easily the most hypocritical.

specialkid8 posted...

So this is your head canon or something?

Not really much head canon, but eatablished canon at least by DS9 standards. The video was posted that basically show how a Ferengi and an admittedly dissident Cardassian view the Federation as an insidious, creeping power always spreading, and yet still better than the alternatives and the only thing that can protect them.

K181 posted...

Not really much head canon, but eatablished canon at least by DS9 standards. The video was posted that basically show how a Ferengi and an admittedly dissident Cardassian view the Federation as an insidious, creeping power always spreading, and yet still better than the alternatives and the only thing that can protect them.

They don't discuss how the Federation is a "creeping power always spreading", that was Eddington's critique of the Federation with calling them "worse than the Borg". The root beer scene is about how jarring and repulsive human/Federation culture is to the average patriotic Ferengi and Cardassian ("bubbly, cloying, happy"), but after prolonged exposure they come to reluctantly appreciate it. It's a scene about why the Federation is good and why Ferenginar will become a better place at the end of the series.

Indeed. And for that reason alone humanity bears responsibility for their terran-fisted rule over the laws and freedoms of the universe, and assimilate with the Borg, founding union and peace amongst all life forever.

oh wait

Did I say that out loud?

Verdekal posted...

They talk about how they've evolved beyond war and strife but that's all they do with the other groups and species.

And, somehow, they're better than their capitalist neighbors, or their imperialist neighbors, or their fascist neighbors, or the fascist neighbors on the other side of the wormhole...

Face it, life's just better in the Federation. They might fall short of living up to their piety, but I'd hardly call them hypocrites.

(Starfleet, on the other hand... they've got some issues.)

K181 posted...

But they're easily the most hypocritical.

Vulcan Science Directorate says hi.

https://youtu.be/EcGO1qjIr5E

They never gave up their bigotry toward the genetically enhanced.

Southernfatman posted...

I kinda hate how The Federation turned into a corrupt allegory of current politics. Sure, there was the occasional crazy/rogue admiral or ambassador and even the group in ST6, but they were outliers. DS9, as great as it is, sort of started the trend. I hate the idea of Section 31 too. Sure it's "realistic", but the whole point is that humans have advanced beyond heinous crap like that for the most part.

Are you making a parallel to real life, or are Tankies really doing their typical crap over fiction too? I can believe it.

The later shows seemed to have doubled down on Federation being a great government, the idea one to strive for. It was mainly just Picard season one that lost its way. But with shows like Strange New World and Prodigy they bash you in the head at how the federation is the government we should strive for. Lower Decks too.

It seems like a of the UFP's smaller wars were because they kept expanding to other regional powers' borders. Especially in the 24th century. Not just Cardassian, but Tholians, Talarians, and Tzenkethi too. Yes, I can get into this.

Justin2Krelian posted...

It seems like a of the UFP's smaller wars were because they kept expanding to other regional powers' borders. Especially in the 24th century. Not just Cardassian, but Tholians, Talarians, and Tzenkethi too. Yes, I can get into this.

One should ask why all those planets with attitudes similar to future Earth were so eager to join the Federation willingly but had not been able or willing to get citizenship with Cardassia or the Talarians or Tholoans.

Wow! Didnt expect to see all these Romulan talking points here. Are these even real people or just bad faith actors?

Doe posted...

One should ask why all those planets with attitudes similar to future Earth were so eager to join the Federation willingly but had not been able or willing to get citizenship with Cardassia or the Talarians or Tholoans.

Well Cardassia occupies your planet for your own good. So few people would willingly want to join them.

creativerealms posted...

They never gave up their bigotry toward the genetically enhanced.

I wouldnt call it bigotry. Nobody treated Bashir any differently once they found out about his genetics. They have laws against genetic modification because they dont want another war to start over it.

Hejiru posted...

I wouldnt call it bigotry. Nobody treated Bashir any differently once they found out about his genetics. They have laws against genetic modification because they dont want another war to start over it.

The only reason Julian even got to keep his medical license was a deal struck with high authorities in Starfleet that involved his dad going to prison, and that was probably only possible because Julian was an officer favored by the captain of the most important space station in a galactic war. He had to keep the most defining element of his childhood a secret from everyone he knew just so he could work a job healing people. The law is bigoted, at the very least. Banning genetic engineering is one thing, but other-izing child subjects of it was messed up. Plus if anything you'd expect that aspect of the law to lead to the radicalization of enhanced humans.

Meanwhile, the Klingons just are minding their own business until something happens.

Doe posted...

One should ask why all those planets with attitudes similar to future Earth were so eager to join the Federation willingly but had not been able or willing to get citizenship with Cardassia or the Talarians or Tholoans.

Oh no question, the UFP is far more desirable. There are some other powers that might not be too bad though. The Ferengi might entice people to join them, for example.

EyeWontBeFooled posted...

Meanwhile, the Klingons just are minding their own business until something happens.

They're known to be imperial too. How much we just don't know.

Doe posted...

The law is bigoted, at the very least. Banning genetic engineering is one thing, but other-izing child subjects of it was messed up. Plus if anything you'd expect that aspect of the law to lead to the radicalization of enhanced humans

Remember that as soon as the "genetically enhanced" were let to roam free, they immediately went to sell out military secrets to the Dominion, just cause they thought were superior to everyone else and only their point of view mattered

creativerealms posted...

They never gave up their bigotry toward the genetically enhanced.

Because genetic engineering is a crapshoot. The best outcome is Bashir, who becomes super-smart but retains his compassion and morals. The other shown examples are people whose minds become permanently addled (the ones from DS9), or Khan and his ilk (TOS and the Augments from ENT), who are egotistical warlords.

ROBANN_88 posted...

Remember that as soon as the "genetically enhanced" were let to roam free, they immediately went to sell out military secrets to the Dominion, just cause they thought were superior to everyone else and only their point of view mattered

But who knows if they would have done that if they'd been allowed to be part of normal society from the start instead of always being treated as if they can't be trusted with the same basic freedoms other people have.

UnsteadyOwl posted...

But who knows if they would have done that if they'd been allowed to be part of normal society from the start instead of always being treated as if they can't be trusted with the same basic freedoms other people have.

My dude, they were kept apart from normal society because they can't be trusted with the same basic freedoms other people have. The genetic engineering damaged their mental/emotional wellbeing. I remember Jack's introduction was shattering a PADD and using the broken glass to petulantly injure someone.

The laws against genetically engineered people holding positions of power are to discourage people from doing it. There are a lot of parents out there that would risk prison if it meant their child could become a great person.

UnsteadyOwl posted...

But who knows if they would have done that if they'd been allowed to be part of normal society from the start instead of always being treated as if they can't be trusted with the same basic freedoms other people have.

Again, they didn't do it cause they were angry or felt left out.
They did it cause they thought their minds are superior and any thought they came up with through statistical analysis is the absolute truth.

They thought enabling a quick defeat would lead to fewer casualties.
It was hubris, not bitterness that caused it.

They're the "Ukraine should just surrender to save themselves" of Star Trek

That episode did happen but also it is bad and the law is still bigoted.

Doe posted...

That episode did happen but also it is bad and the law is still bigoted.

It's unfortunate for people like Bashir, but I kind of don't see a better solution. Genetic engineering is very often done poorly, leading to complications for people like Jack, Lauren, and the rest. If it's ever both successful and prolific, they begin to unfairly out-compete normal people. And as always, there's the looming threat of making another Khan.

i've never actually seen Khan
what's the deal with Khan?