Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 114: Nobody knew healthcare could be so complicated!

(+) Yeah! (+)

"You’re going to have such great health care, at a tiny fraction of the cost—and it’s going to be so easy."
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Peace___Frog posted...

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/887358728625938434

Trump: "Let Obamacare fail... We're not going to own it. I'm not going to own it. I can tell you the Republicans are not going to own it." https://t.co/mYZgeNqXGw

What an ass. It's yours to own, you baby.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/398887965302091776

Leadership: Whatever happens, you're responsible. If it doesn't happen, you're responsible

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/378246501429817344

NO GAMES! HOUSE @GOP MUST DEFUND OBAMACARE! IF THEY DON’T, THEN THEY OWN IT!

Found another, better one to go with it.
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Seph: you can't adequately treat chronic diseases (like, say, cancer) by relying on the emergency room. It is simply a fact that people who are uninsured sometimes die from things that would have been treated had they had coverage.
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Seph promoting a highly disingenious narrative to justify trying to fuck over poor people? You don't say...
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Seph was posting less for a bit there. That was nice.
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FFDragon posted...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/378246501429817344

NO GAMES! HOUSE @GOP MUST DEFUND OBAMACARE! IF THEY DON’T, THEN THEY OWN IT!



Found another, better one to go with it.

Oh my fucking word
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In the same spirit of Trump's claim that "40% [which he rounded up from 36...] is not bad at this time":

https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status/887356033894580228
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LordoftheMorons posted...

In the same spirit of Trump's claim that "40% [which he rounded up from 36...] is not bad at this time":

https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status/887356033894580228

mother of god
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Seph: you can't adequately treat chronic diseases (like, say, cancer) by relying on the emergency room. It is simply a fact that people who are uninsured sometimes die from things that would have been treated had they had coverage.

but it's okay because the people who can't afford treatment can just write letters to the pharm companies begging to be allowed to live and the companies will generously grant their wishes free of charge because
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Senators Susan Collins of Maine, Shelley Moore Capito of West Virginia and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, all Republicans, immediately declared they could not vote to repeal the Affordable Care Act without a replacement — enough to doom the effort before it could get any momentum.

“I did not come to Washington to hurt people,” Ms. Capito said in a statement. “I cannot vote to repeal Obamacare without a replacement plan that addresses my concerns and the needs of West Virginians.”

Senator Rob Portman of Ohio hinted strongly that he too would oppose it.

so that's that then?
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Hopefully

Though the House bill looked this dead before Paul Ryan decided to take up necromancy
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FFDragon posted...

Senators Susan Collins of Maine, Shelley Moore Capito of West Virginia and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, all Republicans, immediately declared they could not vote to repeal the Affordable Care Act without a replacement — enough to doom the effort before it could get any momentum.

“I did not come to Washington to hurt people,” Ms. Capito said in a statement. “I cannot vote to repeal Obamacare without a replacement plan that addresses my concerns and the needs of West Virginians.”

Senator Rob Portman of Ohio hinted strongly that he too would oppose it.

so that's that then?

this is why we shouldn't have lady senators. Their dumb feelings about bullshit like "not wanting to hurt people" stand in the way of progress.
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For a second, moogs, I thought you were Seph
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFCFFlBXkAAW19f.jpg:large

it's sad because that's actually a bold statement
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A Fox reporter also walked out of a press meeting because it wasn't on camera. Fox is seriously starting to lose faith in Trump.

Murkowski has always been one of my favorite senators.

I just love that she got primaried by a tea party guy, lost, ran as a write-in candidate, and then won. Her being in the senate over Joe Miller has been extremely beneficial to democrats, too.
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I also looked up on Wikipedia to confirm what the tea party candidate's name was, and found out she defeated him AGAIN last year. I somehow missed that. He was pretending to be a libertarian this time.

"The election was unusual in featuring a Libertarian Party nominee who endorsed Donald Trump, running against a Republican incumbent who did not. [27] The Libertarian vice-presidential nominee Bill Weld endorsed Murkowski, citing Miller's support for Trump and "devoted social conservative" views as incompatible with libertarianism."
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https://twitter.com/DavidWright_CNN/status/887316079915270144

hahahahaha
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Anyway, I'm super grateful for Collins/Murkowski/Capito because as I feared Dean Heller has had his spine ripped out by Steve Wynn (which I don't think would have been covered under Trumpcare):

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/887319841962680320
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Seph: you can't adequately treat chronic diseases (like, say, cancer) by relying on the emergency room. It is simply a fact that people who are uninsured sometimes die from things that would have been treated had they had coverage.

*Had they chosen to pay for their treatments instead of dismissing them as prohibitively expensive.

That happens to be the way reality works. You can "save millions of lives" by forcing gym owners to give all-comers a line of credit as well, just as we do with healthcare. But if someone chooses not to pay for or put themselves in debt over a gym membership, they are choosing their wallet over their health. That's literally what being in a free society is about.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

https://twitter.com/DavidWright_CNN/status/887316079915270144

hahahahaha

I love it
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SgtSphynx posted...

For a second, moogs, I thought you were Seph

thanks, I'm working on my impressions.
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itt Seph pretends that crippling amounts of medical debt is a completely viable and tenable solution for the poor.
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Crippling amounts of debt made our president a multi-billionaire.

For a poor person, a few thousand extra a year in real money makes a big difference. A million dollar debt that will never be paid (and if you like, you can have discharged at the bankruptcy court) makes a smaller difference.

Or, if it makes a big difference to you, you can buy the health insurance! Others can intelligently decide they prefer the money now to the potential later for debt which they will never pay.
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It's kind of sad we have to cheer on legislation not getting done after spending years watching legislation not get done and wanting it to get done.
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i thought getting millions of dollars head start from daddy made our president a multi-billionaire
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FFDragon posted...

i thought getting millions of dollars head start from daddy made our president a multi-billionaire

why let reality get in the way of your narrative tho
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FFDragon posted...

i thought getting millions of dollars head start from daddy made our president a multi-billionaire

That was 50 million. Maybe he could have just bought stocks but then no one would have heard of him so he wouldn't have become president. Instead he borrowed billions of dollars to build businesses that collapsed under the weight of their debt and then declared bankruptcy. #Winning.
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Trump became a billionaire by ruining thousands of lives, firing thousands to line his personal pockets and escape bankruptcy, and being an all around disgusting, worthless human being who contributes.nothing to this world.
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red sox 777 posted...

FFDragon posted...

i thought getting millions of dollars head start from daddy made our president a multi-billionaire

That was 50 million. Maybe he could have just bought stocks but then no one would have heard of him so he wouldn't have become president. Instead he borrowed billions of dollars to build businesses that collapsed under the weight of their debt and then declared bankruptcy. #Winning.

He still had a lot of money to start, meaning him going into debt wasn't nearly as disastrous as your average person.
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red sox 777 posted...

FFDragon posted...

i thought getting millions of dollars head start from daddy made our president a multi-billionaire

That was 50 million. Maybe he could have just bought stocks but then no one would have heard of him so he wouldn't have become president. Instead he borrowed billions of dollars to build businesses that collapsed under the weight of their debt and then declared bankruptcy. #Winning.

I'm pretty sure most of the people that've heard of him heard of him because of The Apprentice, so yeah, he probably would've still been heard of.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

LordoftheMorons posted...

Seph: you can't adequately treat chronic diseases (like, say, cancer) by relying on the emergency room. It is simply a fact that people who are uninsured sometimes die from things that would have been treated had they had coverage.

*Had they chosen to pay for their treatments instead of dismissing them as prohibitively expensive.

That happens to be the way reality works. You can "save millions of lives" by forcing gym owners to give all-comers a line of credit as well, just as we do with healthcare. But if someone chooses not to pay for or put themselves in debt over a gym membership, they are choosing their wallet over their health. That's literally what being in a free society is about.

What was that about disingenuous arguments?
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The point is, there's differences between debt. Trump's debt is almost all of the sort that he would never personally pay.

How much does a typical poor person/family in America nowadays save? Nothing? Take that 5k a year, say, that would have gone towards health insurance and save/invest it. After 10 years you'll probably be above the national median. If you do end up in debt, declare bankruptcy and in the worst case, you are left with nothing, which is what you would have if you'd bought health insurance all those years. If you bought a house, car, etc there's a good chance the bankruptcy court will let you keep them, even.
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does a free society have the freedom to impose restrictions on its freedom

makes you think
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It's just incredible to me that these people can be making these arguments, that they're that detached from their humanity and fellow man.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/i-dont-know-how-to-explain-to-you-that-you-should_us_59519811e4b0f078efd98440
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That article shows that people are so blinded by their ideology that they literally cannot even recognize when their political opponents care about other people.
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Cybat posted...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/i-dont-know-how-to-explain-to-you-that-you-should_us_59519811e4b0f078efd98440

Fucking to true. It is so difficult to argue with The Usual Suspects around here when half of their posts basically translate to "I'm an evil shit and don't give a fuck". How do you have a discussion with someone when they're just fundementally wired wrong?
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There are definitely true believers on the right (generally the actual libertarians and not the ones who try to claim it for pandering) who genuinely believe that repealing the ACA will lead to a better outcome. Or simply value/give different priority than I do.

I do have to say though that I don't really think that's true for a lot of them, especially the leadership.
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From 2009 until 2017, the entire right, pretty much without exception, said Obamacare was bad and making healthcare worse. Why would someone not believe that this was what was genuinely believed?

I understand that the actions of Republicans in Congress this year have made them look like fakes, but that doesn't invalidate 8 years of opposition to the ACA at home by the base and independents.
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red sox 777 posted...

From 2009 until 2017, the entire right, pretty much without exception, said Obamacare was bad and making healthcare worse. Why would someone not believe that this was what was genuinely believed?

I understand that the actions of Republicans in Congress this year have made them look like fakes, but that doesn't invalidate 8 years of opposition to the ACA at home by the base and independents.

Because the actions of the party leadership, specifically the political strategy created by that fucker Newt Gingrich, says that Obamacare WASN'T bad, but the GOP can never allow the Democrats to take credit for anything positive, lest they lose due to a piss poor overall message.
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red sox 777 posted...

From 2009 until 2017, the entire right, pretty much without exception, said Obamacare was bad and making healthcare worse. Why would someone not believe that this was what was genuinely believed?

because their argument might as well have been "obamacare was made by someone on team blue so it's bad by default"?
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red sox 777 posted...

From 2009 until 2017, the entire right, pretty much without exception, said Obamacare was bad and making healthcare worse. Why would someone not believe that this was what was genuinely believed?

I understand that the actions of Republicans in Congress this year have made them look like fakes, but that doesn't invalidate 8 years of opposition to the ACA at home by the base and independents.

Because it was a really fucking easy way to score political points by saddling the Democrats with all of the problems of the American heath care system (including those that predated the ACA). And as long as they never got full control they'd never have to pay the price for lying about it.
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The problem is conservatives think the best solution to healthcare is the Free Market.

"Everyone will be able to afford insurance if companies have to compete! Just let them sell between state lines!"

Which ignores all the problems of selling between state lines, including things like networking.
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red sox 777 posted...

That article shows that people are so blinded by their ideology that they literally cannot even recognize when their political opponents care about other people.

I have yet to see anything resembling empathy for the middle to lower class by the republicans in a decade.

it's like how trump worshipers who are now going "the job market is better than ever thanks to trump" never gave obama credit for the job market improving under his presidency. obama was a democrat so obviously 100% of what he did was evil and wrong.
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red sox 777 posted...

That article shows that people are so blinded by their ideology that they literally cannot even recognize when their political opponents care about other people.

Please explain how "repeal and go fuck yourself" (which, per the CBO, would take health insurance away from 32 million people and would double premiums for everyone else) displays any amount of caring for other people.
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Let me rephrase. I'm speaking about the legislators and would like to amend my statement to "lead to a better outcome for most people, and particularly the most vulnerable"

The base likely believes in that statement to a much higher degree than the legislators, which itself is a reason why I think the legislators would say as much even if they don't personally believe it - they think saying so will increase their power/influence.
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And if we are to use the language of the left, Obamacare is literally killing people by making healthcare unaffordable.

Of course no one should be convinced of that merely because someone said so, which is why it's a totally useless line of argument (even when not disingenuous by virtue of the person believing it full stop). Explaining why things help or hurt is persuasive. Telling people they are evil accomplishes nothing, except to drive them to vote against you. If you are secretly working for the other side, I guess that's a win.
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