Current Events > What is the objection to midichlorians exactly?

(+) Yeah! (+)

What's so bad about them?
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They removed some of the mysticism to the series and gave it a quantifiable number.
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Probably because it trivialises the force into something that can be measured.
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something, something, dragonball.

Im pretty sure the objection, specifically, is that they are super dumb.
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The Force was made to be a pseudo-religious thing in the OT. It seemed like all you had to do was dedicate your life to studying and believing in it and you could be a Jedi. Then midichlorians came along and said "nah it doesnt matter what you believe or do it all depends on how many cells you have".

I dont hate them, but i see why people do
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My take on it is that prior to prequel trilogy, The Force was seen as sort of like a religion or mythology. It was a measure of faith in the energy that bound people and the universe together. The more you subjected yourself to this faith, the more The Force spoke through you. It was intangible. Then the prequels gave a finite and definitive form to what The Force actually was, and it turned what was seen as something mystical into something biological.

I'm sure someone will contest that, but that was my take on it.
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Eh, I prefer it. There is just something I don't like about not knowing who is stronger than who.

I cannot for the life of me understand how people thought that anyone could become a Jedi.

That being said, I don't like midichlorians because giving power levels is a lame way of explaining why someone is powerful.
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On_The_Edge posted...

What's so bad about them?

They took this pseudo mystical theological force that everyone took at face value and provided a measurable scientific explanation for it.
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But the midichlorians don't explain the force. They are the mediator between the force and other lifeforms. The force is still a mystical, spiritual force. The midichlorians are a lifeform which mediate between the jedi/sith and the force.
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EverDownward posted...

My take on it is that prior to prequel trilogy, The Force was seen as sort of like a religion or mythology. It was a measure of faith in the energy that bound people and the universe together. The more you subjected yourself to this faith, the more The Force spoke through you. It was intangible. Then the prequels gave a finite and definitive form to what The Force actually was, and it turned what was seen as something mystical into something biological.

I'm sure someone will contest that, but that was my take on it.

it is why people are upset, but it ignores the "foreshadowing" (not sure if there's a more precise word for this) in Return of the Jedi: Luke and Leia being twins, and Luke saying "The Force is strong in my family"
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsaKaRGjnxE
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Hinakuluiau posted...

I cannot for the life of me understand how people thought that anyone could become a Jedi.

That being said, I don't like midichlorians because giving power levels is a lame way of explaining why someone is powerful.

then it's a good thing that midichlorians aren't a power level

On_The_Edge posted...

But the midichlorians don't explain the force. They are the mediator between the force and other lifeforms. The force is still a mystical, spiritual force. The midichlorians are a lifeform which mediate between the jedi/sith and the force.

don't expect the nerds to understand that
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On_The_Edge posted...

But the midichlorians don't explain the force. They are the mediator between the force and other lifeforms. The force is still a mystical, spiritual force. The midichlorians are a lifeform which mediate between the jedi/sith and the force.

It was still a tangible buffer between the individual and The Force, and could be seen as a proxy for it. In the OT there was none of that, it was just a measure of faith you had in the energy of the universe.
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nanomachines
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a42ozslushie posted...

The Force was made to be a pseudo-religious thing in the OT. It seemed like all you had to do was dedicate your life to studying and believing in it and you could be a Jedi. Then midichlorians came along and said "nah it doesnt matter what you believe or do it all depends on how many cells you have".

I dont hate them, but i see why people do

I don't think that was really the intention of it though, so much as one way you could misinterpret it.

I always felt it was more like if you have the midis you can be strong in the Force but you still have to work for it and believe in it. Either way, they definitely don't explain anything about the Force itself; they just give a biological explanation for the phenomenon of Force Sensitivity. Or to be more precise, they give Qui-Gon an excuse to suspect Anakin will be a strong Jedi. I mean, it was a total throwaway line.

I agree they were BS and made some small contribution to de-mystifying the Force, but not nearly on the scales that people seem to think.
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averagejoel posted...

EverDownward posted...

My take on it is that prior to prequel trilogy, The Force was seen as sort of like a religion or mythology. It was a measure of faith in the energy that bound people and the universe together. The more you subjected yourself to this faith, the more The Force spoke through you. It was intangible. Then the prequels gave a finite and definitive form to what The Force actually was, and it turned what was seen as something mystical into something biological.

I'm sure someone will contest that, but that was my take on it.

it is why people are upset, but it ignores the "foreshadowing" (not sure if there's a more precise word for this) in Return of the Jedi: Luke and Leia being twins, and Luke saying "The Force is strong in my family"

But he could have said that in reference to both him and his father being Force wielders, both him and Vader believed and devoted themselves to The Force, after all.
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solosnake posted...

nanomachines

son.
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EverDownward posted...

averagejoel posted...

EverDownward posted...

My take on it is that prior to prequel trilogy, The Force was seen as sort of like a religion or mythology. It was a measure of faith in the energy that bound people and the universe together. The more you subjected yourself to this faith, the more The Force spoke through you. It was intangible. Then the prequels gave a finite and definitive form to what The Force actually was, and it turned what was seen as something mystical into something biological.

I'm sure someone will contest that, but that was my take on it.

it is why people are upset, but it ignores the "foreshadowing" (not sure if there's a more precise word for this) in Return of the Jedi: Luke and Leia being twins, and Luke saying "The Force is strong in my family"

But he could have said that in reference to both him and his father being Force wielders, both him and Vader believed and devoted themselves to The Force, after all.

he also says "it is strong in my sister", and Leia, at that point, hadn't.
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EverDownward posted...

averagejoel posted...

EverDownward posted...

My take on it is that prior to prequel trilogy, The Force was seen as sort of like a religion or mythology. It was a measure of faith in the energy that bound people and the universe together. The more you subjected yourself to this faith, the more The Force spoke through you. It was intangible. Then the prequels gave a finite and definitive form to what The Force actually was, and it turned what was seen as something mystical into something biological.

I'm sure someone will contest that, but that was my take on it.

it is why people are upset, but it ignores the "foreshadowing" (not sure if there's a more precise word for this) in Return of the Jedi: Luke and Leia being twins, and Luke saying "The Force is strong in my family"

But he could have said that in reference to both him and his father being Force wielders, both him and Vader believed and devoted themselves to The Force, after all.

The point is, there's countless narrative devices that could have been used other than a blood test and micro-organisms.

averagejoel posted...

EverDownward posted...

averagejoel posted...

EverDownward posted...

My take on it is that prior to prequel trilogy, The Force was seen as sort of like a religion or mythology. It was a measure of faith in the energy that bound people and the universe together. The more you subjected yourself to this faith, the more The Force spoke through you. It was intangible. Then the prequels gave a finite and definitive form to what The Force actually was, and it turned what was seen as something mystical into something biological.

I'm sure someone will contest that, but that was my take on it.

it is why people are upset, but it ignores the "foreshadowing" (not sure if there's a more precise word for this) in Return of the Jedi: Luke and Leia being twins, and Luke saying "The Force is strong in my family"

But he could have said that in reference to both him and his father being Force wielders, both him and Vader believed and devoted themselves to The Force, after all.

he also says "it is strong in my sister", and Leia, at that point, hadn't.

Ah
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It was a not very good attempt to take Star Wars from fantasy to hard sci-fi.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

EverDownward posted...

averagejoel posted...

EverDownward posted...

My take on it is that prior to prequel trilogy, The Force was seen as sort of like a religion or mythology. It was a measure of faith in the energy that bound people and the universe together. The more you subjected yourself to this faith, the more The Force spoke through you. It was intangible. Then the prequels gave a finite and definitive form to what The Force actually was, and it turned what was seen as something mystical into something biological.

I'm sure someone will contest that, but that was my take on it.

it is why people are upset, but it ignores the "foreshadowing" (not sure if there's a more precise word for this) in Return of the Jedi: Luke and Leia being twins, and Luke saying "The Force is strong in my family"

But he could have said that in reference to both him and his father being Force wielders, both him and Vader believed and devoted themselves to The Force, after all.

The point is, there's countless narrative devices that could have been used other than a blood test and micro-organisms.

Yes, and I agree
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In retrospect the midichlorians aren't a problem. Minor quibble maybe. By the time of the OT it was not relevant to the story.

Lucas was going for something different with Anakin (chosen one, most powerful Jedi ever, etc) and introducing a midichlorian count or whatever helped put that point across, that's all. Whether or not he should have written young Anakin this way is another matter. I'm conflicted on that point.

There could have been more depth with portraying Anakin as just a regular Force-sensitive student turned Jedi who goes down the dark path. I would have preferred that personally, as it could have expanded greatly on the "Dark side". The Dark Side is seductive because it's morally grey, just like real life.

People don't set out to commit atrocities because they think EVIL is superior. They don't see themselves as evil, they see themselves as saviors.
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All in all, the biggest sins of the prequels was squandering Liam Neeson and Sam Jackson. Possibly also Ewan McGregor.

Funbazooka posted...

In retrospect the midichlorians aren't a problem. Minor quibble maybe. By the time of the OT it was not relevant to the story.

Lucas was going for something different with Anakin (chosen one, most powerful Jedi ever, etc) and introducing a midichlorian count or whatever helped put that point across, that's all. Whether or not he should have written young Anakin this way is another matter. I'm conflicted on that point.

There could have been more depth with portraying Anakin as just a regular Force-sensitive student turned Jedi who goes down the dark path. I would have preferred that personally, as it could have expanded greatly on the "Dark side". The Dark Side is seductive because it's morally grey, just like real life.

People don't set out to commit atrocities because they think EVIL is superior. They don't see themselves as evil, they see themselves as saviors.

i agree with this, i view midichlorians as more bad writing than anything. george lucas wanted to show that Anakin was a super Jedi and had MORE FORCE than any other jedi, so he creates this quantifiable way to measure the force, not really thinking about the implications this has for the series
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Questionmarktarius posted...

All in all, the biggest sins of the prequels was squandering Liam Neeson and Sam Jackson. Possibly also Ewan McGregor.

Why Ewan?
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Funbazooka posted...

There could have been more depth with portraying Anakin as just a regular Force-sensitive student turned Jedi who goes down the dark path. I would have preferred that personally, as it could have expanded greatly on the "Dark side". The Dark Side is seductive because it's morally grey, just like real life.

episodes 1-3 deal with Anakin's fall; episodes 4-6, his redemption. in order for the "fall" to have maximum impact, it's necessary to show him at his most innocent.
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averagejoel posted...

then it's a good thing that midichlorians aren't a power level

They literally use Anakin's levels as an example of why he's so powerful.

I'm not even against midichlorians and I accept them as being attracted to people strong with the force, but don't be so dishonest when it's literally explained that "not even Master Yoda has this many!"
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EverDownward posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

All in all, the biggest sins of the prequels was squandering Liam Neeson and Sam Jackson. Possibly also Ewan McGregor.

Why Ewan?

Ewan gave a damn fine performance in all three, especially the "quiet detective" bits involving unraveling the clones. However, he was just a vehicle to push Anakin, in the end.

Questionmarktarius posted...

EverDownward posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

All in all, the biggest sins of the prequels was squandering Liam Neeson and Sam Jackson. Possibly also Ewan McGregor.

Why Ewan?

Ewan gave a damn fine performance in all three, especially the "quiet detective" bits involving unraveling the clones. However, he was just a vehicle to push Anakin, in the end.

I suppose. He probably should have been the main character for the prequel trilogy, but oh well. I'm hoping the Obi Wan movie happens and he's cast for it.
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EverDownward posted...

I'm hoping the Obi Wan movie happens and he's cast for it.

I would donate essential organs for a Seven Samurai knockoff with Ewan McGregor, Sam Jackson, and Frank Oz.

averagejoel posted...

Funbazooka posted...

There could have been more depth with portraying Anakin as just a regular Force-sensitive student turned Jedi who goes down the dark path. I would have preferred that personally, as it could have expanded greatly on the "Dark side". The Dark Side is seductive because it's morally grey, just like real life.

episodes 1-3 deal with Anakin's fall; episodes 4-6, his redemption. in order for the "fall" to have maximum impact, it's necessary to show him at his most innocent.

I don't disagree with that. I would have preferred older than Jake Lloyd but younger than Luke in ANH. That would have absolutely fine. The younger he is the less believable it is that he got so heavily involved. Again, the midichlorians help explain this as it's the main reason Qui-Gon whisks him away... not that it was the best path for the story.
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It's a cool idea. People just don't like change.
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The prequels should have been the rise of Sheev Palpatine.
They almost were.

Literally a power level
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Clumsy in the execution I'd say. Midichlorians make logical sense on their own.

If you asked a few years ago though I would have sang a different tune. People are beginning to see some of the merit that were in the prequels. They were never bereft of it.
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How much better could the prequels have been, if Anakin was just a navigator on a spice freighter, and Ben fucked up his jedi training?
Just think.

With the prequels as is, one could still interpret Obi-Wan as having fucked up Anakin's training, technically speaking. There are shades of it. Like when Obi-Wan literally tells him that his light-saber is his LIFE in AOTC. Lucas didn't follow through with a lot of things. There are lots of half-assed fragments unfortunately overshadowed by more kiddy stuff or misfires in general.
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Funbazooka posted...

With the prequels as is, one could still interpret Obi-Wan as having fucked up Anakin's training, technically speaking.

Yes.
It's very arguable that Kenobi fucked up Luke's training, as well.

because it turns into a power levelfest and is just shit in general.

>hey vegeta, his power level is higher than mine so dont expect any suspense or anything since we both know im gonna lose

I don't think so. Obi-Wan barely trained Luke. He could only do so much as a Force ghost.

Plus, the one time Luke ever so momentarily turned to the Dark Side was in ROTJ when he realized he could destroy Vader in one single strike. He was so close. Destroying Vader was heavily encouraged by Obi-Wan and Yoda IIRC.
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Funbazooka posted...

Destroying Vader was heavily encouraged by Obi-Wan and Yoda IIRC.

He would have done it too, had Palpy not also suggested it.

Spooky shit. We'll see if the next sequel comes close to that spookiness. Doubt it!
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There is no dark side in the force, really. Matter of fact it's all dark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGS9auPPDsg