Current Events > Moral Dilemma: You're a soldier and you're ordered to kill unarmed civilians.

(+) Yeah! (+)

You've been ordered to bomb/shell target areas that you know are civilian population centres and shoot any surviving stragglers on sight even if unarmed or fleeing

You don't know the machinations, goal or purposes behind the orders.

Your comrades are all happily following orders without question

https://i.imgur.com/7NOeY3g.jpg

What do you do?
Would you follow orders?

I've been reading some stories from Isreali, UK and US soldiers (not picking on those nations or making political commentary, that's just who told the stories I heard) about them knowingly killing civvies and blowing up non military buildings and in almost every case there's an unemotional, unapologetic "Just following orders "

Like Milgram before me, it makes me wonder If morality flies out of the window if we can pass responsibility onto someone else.

So what do you think you would do in their situation?

I'd like to think I'd pull a Hugh Thompson Jr but I guess you dont know until the crunch
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I would probably shoot my commanding officer, then be shot myself.

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As a reminder refusal to follow orders in a countries military is grounds for treason which carries the sentence of death, life in military prison and other unpleasant shit, so would a non politically connected or wealthy solider get away with refusing orders like that? Absolutely not, therefore the order is basically kill these people or we kill you/ruin your life so badly you wish you were dead which means self preservation kicks in and it's either you or them and most likely you have things to live for so you'd choose you. Then comes the justifications "They hate us anyway", "They probably deserved it", "I had no choice" and as you pointed out "just following orders"

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So I risk either being dishonorably discharged for not following orders or dishonorably discharged for going AWOL depending on the intensity of scale?

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Fuck no

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Mr Hangman posted...

This might be considered a personal dilemma, but certainly not a moral one. You are responsible.

you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means
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This is a good question. Ideally, one would like to believe they'd say no, but when faced with reality and the consequences of refusing orders, it's not so easy. I think this is one of those things where you don't know how you'll react until you're actually in such a situation.

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Mr Hangman posted...

This might be considered a personal dilemma, but certainly not a moral one. You are responsible.

Legally, you are also responsible for your actions. Just following orders is not a valid defense.

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uwnim posted...

Legally, you are also responsible for your actions. Just following orders is not a valid defense.

It's kinda both, if you don't do it your life is effectively over then and there unless by some miracle the ones who gave the order are fired, reprehended for the act, you are released from military prison and then hailed as a hero for sticking by your beliefs and morals rather than being the faceless murderbot the army actually demands it's grunts be on the battle field and you win a lofty set for life settlement

However odds are the military does this kinda thing regularly and even the president themselves give those orders so it's a gamble if you're willing to stand by your moral code despite whatever suffering it might bring with no way of knowing for sure if real justice will reward you for it or if you're wiling to toss it away for self preservation

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uwnim posted...

Legally, you are also responsible for your actions. Just following orders is not a valid defense.

so every soldier who has killed people is a murderer?
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This is a bait question to get you modded btw

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As an actual soldier in the United States Army, I am not mandated to follow any order that is immoral, illegal, or unethical. Nor am I allowed to command soldiers under me to perform acts that would be considered immoral, illegal, or unethical. Soldiers under me would be well within their right to refuse any orders of that nature.

Would I potentially face consequences for refusal? It's possible but generally I feel you'd be within your right to refuse the given order.

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People itt topic are so full of shit. Just lying to themselves, when they would actually do it.

UnfairRepresent posted...

so every soldier who has killed people is a murderer?

murder is the killing of a human by another human so yes by definition of the word they are murderers and if you go by the hard right republican standard every human male is a murderer by age 12 when they discover masturbation as is every human female that's ever had a miscarriage

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Remember that wikileaks video about the death of the two Reuters news staff in Iraq 2007?

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Orders are orders

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tremain07 posted...

murder is the killing of a human by another human

No.

The killing of another person without justification or excuse, especially the crime of killing a person with malice aforethought or with recklessness manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.

That's why we also have Manslaughter charges.

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I sed the crauwd is onarmd. There's lots uh wehmen en cheldren daown there, all they waent is foud for gawd's sake! Da hell wid you. I wihh not fyeh on helpless pepule. Abuort messhun, we're retornen bak to bayse.

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I do not think I would do it.

Shooting civilians is also against the Geneva Conventions.

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This is a pretty easy decision, actually. There are numerous laws (domestic and international) that clearly prohibit attacking unarmed civilians unprovoked.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

so every soldier who has killed people is a murderer?

Of course... how the fuck is this even a question? I mean you said killed right there

Never understood military worship
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I wouldn't be a soldier in the first place

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wackyteen posted...

As an actual soldier in the United States Army, I am not mandated to follow any order that is immoral, illegal, or unethical. Nor am I allowed to command soldiers under me to perform acts that would be considered immoral, illegal, or unethical. Soldiers under me would be well within their right to refuse any orders of that nature.

Would I potentially face consequences for refusal? It's possible but generally I feel you'd be within your right to refuse the given order.

Okay

But I'm reading a lot of accounts from soldiers, some first hand, some from reporters writing up interviews/stories which just ultimately boil down to "Yeah I shot them. We had orders. "

Not malicious but cold
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No because it's illegal to follow them.

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Yes, I would slay them. Quite obviously this scenario is carried out on a daily basis, and it is known fact that the horrors and terrors of boot camp will brain wash even the strongest of men. Their is no autonomy. There are only orders, and the orders must be obeyed.

And it wouldn't be just the men, but the women and children too! Order me to hate them? I HAYTE THEM. Slaughter them all like AMINALS.

The orders supercede all facets of life. They are the code upon which we function, and we are the programmed robot.


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UnfairRepresent posted...

so every soldier who has killed people is a murderer?

No. There is a difference between deliberately killing an enemy combatant and deliberately killing civilians though.


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uwnim posted...

No. There is a difference between deliberately killing an enemy combatant and deliberately killing civilians though.

If you've been ordered to kill or at least bomb their homes, aren't they by definition now an enemy?
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zado19 posted...

Of course... how the f*** is this even a question? I mean you said killed right there

Because "murder" and "kill" are not synonymous.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

But I'm reading a lot of accounts from soldiers, some first hand, some from reporters writing up interviews/stories which just ultimately boil down to "Yeah I shot them. We had orders. "

Other countries have different standards that they follow but under the nation I serve I can freely disobey them.

But even if I was under mandate to follow, it'd come down to nuance. I won't go into detail because I don't want to potentially get banned

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UnfairRepresent posted...

If you've been ordered to kill or at least bomb their homes, aren't they by definition now an enemy?

Absolutely not.

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I like how everyone is saying no in here but would be far to chicken to actually join the military in the first place.

People forget that there's a difference between wanting to kill innocents and accidentally killing innocents in war...

War isn't nice, tough decisions have to be made and I'm thankful nobody here has the ability to surrender for us

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levelshooter posted...

I like how everyone is saying no in here but would be far to chicken to actually join the military in the first place.

People forget that there's a difference between wanting to kill innocents and accidentally killing innocents in war...

War isn't nice, tough decisions have to be made and I'm thankful nobody here has the ability to surrender for us

I'm in the military. I've done my training, it's a pretty simple concept.

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levelshooter posted...

I like how everyone is saying no in here but would be far to chicken to actually join the military in the first place.

People forget that there's a difference between wanting to kill innocents and accidentally killing innocents in war...

War isn't nice, tough decisions have to be made and I'm thankful nobody here has the ability to surrender for us

I think 3 users ITT are US military
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Hexenherz posted...

I'm in the military. I've done my training, it's a pretty simple concept.

This.

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Pretty sure I can refuse in the US

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What do you fear more, God or military prison?

I'm not gonna pass up the chance to be pardoned by the President

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tremain07 posted...

As a reminder refusal to follow orders in a countries military is grounds for treason which carries the sentence of death, life in military prison and other unpleasant shit, so would a non politically connected or wealthy solider get away with refusing orders like that? Absolutely not, therefore the order is basically kill these people or we kill you/ruin your life so badly you wish you were dead which means self preservation kicks in and it's either you or them and most likely you have things to live for so you'd choose you. Then comes the justifications "They hate us anyway", "They probably deserved it", "I had no choice" and as you pointed out "just following orders"

No. Refusing to follow an order isn't grounds for treason. It's a violation of the UCMJ, but that only protects lawful orders. An order to murder unarmed civilians would be an unlawful order and you aren't obliged to follow unlawful orders. That said, CYA.

Just like workers in business just following boss order

If you not follow boss order you will get fired

Most of those worker have family to feed
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No no no no no no TC, you're asking the wrong question. Obviously any well adjusted normal person would say no to the order. And as @wackyteen mentioned, soldiers have the autonomy to refuse orders and act on their own accord depending on how severe the situation is. The question is how do you break down a well adjusted person to be vulnerable enough to follow an order that egregious? Allow me to draw from the story of the My Lai Massacre.

During the Vietnam war, though people were recruited on the promise of fighting the enemy to protect our nation, not everyone saw war. There was a set of troops who was exactly in that predicament. No combat. Just hearing hearsay stories from others about how dangerous the enemy was. Even worse, they were had their own battles, the traps found the forests laid out by the enemy that injured and potentially killed their comrades. As the months went on, no real combat, just duking it out with trap holes and trees while getting more hearsay stories; these guys were getting antsy and it was taking a psychological toll on them.

But finally, a miracle happened, they got the call to arms. An order to intercept the enemy at X location. They were finally going to get their chance defend their country. When they got there, they found a regular village. No dangerous mercenaries. Not even a single weapon to found. Just an innocent Vietnamese village living their daily life before interrupted by their sudden presence. Fed up and frustrated, the leader of the troop took out his gun and fired the first shot, commencing the start of one of the worst US military war crimes in history. Children murdered. Babies tossed into the air and caught... on bayonets. Women and young girls violated. Probably one or 2 soldiers escaped from staining their hands red from this atrocity. When it was all said and done and the soldiers came back home and one was interviewed, his response for an explanation for why it happened? "It's just one of those things".

People don't start wanting to hurt others who are of perceived zero threat to them. There's zero reason to direct any negative energy their way and that takes effort. You have break down their psyche or convince them they're the enemy.

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A lot of people in the military are simply just dicks. Theres a lot of attention-deprived people with anger issues who are given a gun and thus a power complex who probably enjoy just shooting people with no responsibility.

Obviously Im not generalizing everyone in the military, just most of the people who shoot and then reply just following orders

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Bananana posted...

A lot of people in the military are simply just dicks. Theres a lot of attention-deprived people with anger issues who are given a gun and thus a power complex who probably enjoy just shooting people with no responsibility.

Those are the ones you hear about cause they get in trouble and make the news.

A lot of people in the military simply want to do their job and go home at the end of the day.

You do get the attention deprived and angry ones but on the whole the military is good at identifying those individuals and facilitating their way out of the military. Also anymore those types don't meld very well with the military and get in trouble and get out, usually before they ever see combat.

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All so most people just wanna see the WORLD BURN

Who say otherwise is liar
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I wouldn't do it

If that were the option id take my dishonorable discharge and then file a complaint against the higher ranking officers.

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The Mai Lai massacre was often used as an example in Law of Armed Conflict training in the British Army (maybe still is).

TLDR it's an example of what not to do, the gold standard of correct behaviour on that day is this man. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.

Even shorter version, no moral quandary at all, following illegal orders is illegal.

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Mussurana posted...

TLDR it's an example of what not to do, the gold standard of correct behaviour on that day is this man. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.

it's almost like I mentioned him in the OP
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Absolutely not, but it's easy for me to say as a civilian. If I got successfully brainwashed into blind obedience like most soldiers are, I'd probably do it.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

it's almost like I mentioned him in the OP

Sure, and he was used as the example of what to do by the British Army.

Answers your question doesn't it?

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