Board 8 > Nintendo getting humiliated like this is exactly what needed to happen

(+) Yeah! (+)

Weren't early rumors swirling that Wii U has architecture intentionally similar to the 360 for easy third party porting? I think Nintendo making a console that's technologically inviting for third parties (something that Wii was not) is imperative, but so is an inviting attitude on Nintendo's part. They have a history of butting heads with third parties, and I'm sure Sony and Microsoft have taken advantage of that over the past decade+. I would imagine third parties are more apprehensive about developing for Nintendo consoles in the first place (competing against Mario and Pokemon vs Kratos and Master Chief... yeah), so the company has to make it worth their while.

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the icon ownz all posted...
TODDLERS

AND

GRANDMOTHERS


My mom and dad bought a Wii to keep at their house for when their 4-year-old grandson comes to visit. They have never owned a video game system before. Toddlers and grandmothers, indeed.

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The problem with that is when Sony and Microsoft release their newest consoles in a few years, the tech will be much more advanced then the Wii U. Nintendo will once again be stuck with last gen technology. Third parties who jump to the next gen will once again not downgrade their games to work on the Wii U.

This is a really dumb move on Nintendo's part. The only way I see this working is if they either trash the Wii U altogether (or bulk up the tech big time), or they release another console a few years after the Wii U (basically using the Wii U as a "port" console and ignoring it after). Either way, they shot themselves in the foot with this announcement.

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When do you expect Microsoft and Sony to launch their consoles? Also, do you feel the only viable option for Nintendo is to launch at the same time with similarly powerful technology?

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XxSoulxX posted...
The problem with that is when Sony and Microsoft release their newest consoles in a few years, the tech will be much more advanced then the Wii U. Nintendo will once again be stuck with last gen technology. Third parties who jump to the next gen will once again not downgrade their games to work on the Wii U.

This is a really dumb move on Nintendo's part. The only way I see this working is if they either trash the Wii U altogether (or bulk up the tech big time), or they release another console a few years after the Wii U (basically using the Wii U as a "port" console and ignoring it after). Either way, they shot themselves in the foot with this announcement.

And nobody will develop games for them. You do not realize how game development is doing right now, do ya?

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When do you expect Microsoft and Sony to launch their consoles? Also, do you feel the only viable option for Nintendo is to launch at the same time with similarly powerful technology?

1. I expect an announcement of the PS4/Xbox 3 at E3 next year, so maybe two/three years after that.

2. If they want to get in on the third party games, they need to. They need to keep up with the industry. They don't need to focus on graphics like Sony or Microsoft, but they need a system that has comparable tech so developers can easily port their games onto that system.

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Woe unto he who sig bets with the near-invincible Lord High creativename

And nobody will develop games for them. You do not realize how game development is doing right now, do ya?

I'm not following you. Nobody will develop for PS4/Xbox 3? Or for the next Nintendo console?

If it's the latter, I agree. If it's the former... I don't really know what to say to that. Either way, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

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It shouldn't but a year from the WiiU's release that we'll see Microsoft and Sony's new consoles, sometime in 2013.

I think the fact that the WiiU will be in HD, will be able to output natively in 1080p, will go a long way in making it easier to port games. I don't really want to play the guessing game, because we have no idea what Microsoft and Sony are planning, and we don't have anything solid about what's going into the WiiU, but it'll be a different situation than this gen. Nintendo might have to deal with downgraded ports, but it won't be such a technological difference that it's not feasible to port multiplatform games.

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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

we do know a couple things about the Wii U actually. beyond what you said we know a rough idea of what the vid card that's supposed to be in it is modified from - either a 4850 or a 4890. obviously it'll be optimized to high hell, and that's pretty top tier stuff right there. especially when you bear in mind that the PS3's vid card is so old Pentium 3s were still being sold when it had any real value.

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XxSoulxX posted...
And nobody will develop games for them. You do not realize how game development is doing right now, do ya?

I'm not following you. Nobody will develop for PS4/Xbox 3? Or for the next Nintendo console?

If it's the latter, I agree. If it's the former... I don't really know what to say to that. Either way, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

No, nobody will develop games with significantly more graphical horsepower because the graphics improve linearly while the costs increase exponentially.

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From: XxSoulxX | #106
2. If they want to get in on the third party games, they need to. They need to keep up with the industry. They don't need to focus on graphics like Sony or Microsoft, but they need a system that has comparable tech so developers can easily port their games onto that system.

But if they have comparable tech, that means comparable cost for Nintendo, which I don't think they want. You can't give your system similar tech to the PS4 and then launch for $100 less (especially if you're Nintendo). After this 3DS price cut, I'm thinking the Ninty execs are sitting down right now and rethinking their Wii U pricing. Nintendo killed the competition this gen not only because they targeted casuals, but because they offered such a cheaper product. I'd think they want to continue that with Wii U.

EDIT: Remember that this 3DS is essentially the most expensive console Nintendo has ever offered (ignoring inflation) and has had the least impressive launch of any serious system they've ever offered. At this point, I'd figure Nintendo would focus much more on launching an affordable console than trying to match firepower with Microsoft and Sony.

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In any case, I don't believe the WiiU's biggest problem is the tech going inside the machine. I think there are a whole bunch of other more important areas that Nintendo has to make real progress in order for the WiiU to succeed. The only big areas where they could goof on tech are ignoring internal storage (a very real possibility), or doing something really dumb like skimping on RAM.

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TODDLERS

AND

GRANDMOTHERS

Igloo Bob likes this post

also this comparable tech stuff is really gonna reach a boiling point much in the same way PCs have.
yes, i can in fact run a hexacore and 16GB of RAM pretty nicely.

but there's nothing that requires even half of that today. if i want to simuntaneously do a dozen things then sure it'll matter, but until then, not really. it'd make more sense to use 3 of 'em to buddy up with 3 and make 3 extra awesome cores since THAT would be used. the same applies to hard drives - i can put in a good 9TB with 3 drives, but if all i need is 3TB then i can instead choose to link them up and improve the performance among them.


basically, "more more more" reaches a point where you want to see how to optimize and increase the performance of less. and a lot of game engines are running the same theory too, which is why you have stuff like Crysis 1 having higher min requirements than Crysis 2. so shift that to consoles and you'll basically get stuck in a scenario now whether that'll be next gen, no idea. but the issue's looming that area in much the same way. if i can run the same product at a third of the power (e.g., a dual core with say 4GB RAM and 3GB) then all the excess is going to waste. if i can customize that down to a quarter, and in exchange lose a little performance, that's still gonna be something pretty solid.


so whether MS or Sony can do something that doesn't fall into that gap is on them. personally, i'll doubt it seeing how PCs sure as hell haven't.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

Value is an important part of the price. If you offer people a product like the 3DS, where the perceived value of the system is much lower than the price, people are going to be very hesitant to buy it. People were hostile to the 3DS price from the beginning because of that. The bigger lesson to take away for the WiiU is making sure there is an incentive for people to buy the machine. They cannot believe that launching with an old Batman game, or an old Assassin's Creed, or whatever, will provide get people to drop $300. People will keep buying, by that time, the cheaper 360s and PS3s, that can give them all of those old games. Nintendo's problem will be convincing people to pay for the WiiU instead of a $200 360 or PS3, and then again months later having to fight against PS4 and Xbox 3 hype.

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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

oh on topic:

I think it's entirely fair to dislike Nintendo if you're a "core gamer" or whatever. Nintendo's love for you has steadily declined since the SNES and there's no reason to believe them when they say "baby, this time we'll be different."

but expecting them to fail is something altogether different. they still sell hardware at a profit, their first party titles are still some of the best games in the industry, and their name is synonymous with video games. Get a good Mario and Zelda game out, and a new SSB. people will buy it like they've bought everything else!

eh... internal hard drives are probably the first thing they'd look at in terms of minimizing costs. i can totally see them issue a hard drive add on, see how that sells with their products/see how many people are running HDDs through a system check, then deciding on a later model if they should include it with the lower costs, using it to offset the difference and make a bit more profit.

least, that's what i assume they'll do. they want the initial costs low, so no HDD would be the easiest possibility, with the ability to add on your own if you want.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

But if they have comparable tech, that means comparable cost for Nintendo, which I don't think they want.

What they want won't keep them running very long. Like HM said, they are in a very bad spot with the Wii U. They have to do something to make either casual fans buy it (that means going after Apple and smart phones), or getting hardcore fans to buy it (going after third parties). If they plan on coasting somewhere in the middle, they run the risk of losing both (let's face it, they lost their hardcore fans, and the casuals aren't going crazy for Nintendo at the moment). They're in a lot of trouble.

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Calling Pokemon RBY a top 10 game was the most insane contest jibba-jabba ever
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OmarsComin posted...
oh on topic:

I think it's entirely fair to dislike Nintendo if you're a "core gamer" or whatever. Nintendo's love for you has steadily declined since the SNES and there's no reason to believe them when they say "baby, this time we'll be different."

but expecting them to fail is something altogether different. they still sell hardware at a profit, their first party titles are still some of the best games in the industry, and their name is synonymous with video games. Get a good Mario and Zelda game out, and a new SSB. people will buy it like they've bought everything else!

This is what everyone thought until the 3DS completely bombed the **** out, and with their stocks falling and the recent price drop, Nintendo's looking mortal for the first time in a while. And all the mistakes they made with the 3DS seem to be repeating themselves with the Wii U. I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo renamed the Wii U and redesigned it to look less... well, Wii-ish.

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Now this is entertainment!

Nintendo can certainly fail. Today is a different time than a few years ago -- we aren't in the "it prints money" era anymore. That's part of the reason this news has blown up: Nintendo posted a $500 million loss, and are going to sell the 3DS at a loss starting August 12. They're having some real problems right now, and they need to try to address them in a big way. Nintendo isn't going to fail in the sense that they'll go out of business, but they aren't the same invincible company they were at the height of the Wii's popularity.

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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

^5 HM. Someone who truly knows what's going on.

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Calling Pokemon RBY a top 10 game was the most insane contest jibba-jabba ever
Woe unto he who sig bets with the near-invincible Lord High creativename

wouldn't say they can fail. just because they aren't invincible doesn't mean they can die off. they're in a peachy situation and i wouldn't assume at all for a second that they're with any major problems. everything they lost they'll gain back by the year's end along with a couple million more. it's more like a stumbling block of "oh, so that's where the line is," and then they jumped to make sure they're in it (see: the fact that the price of the 3DS is the same as the XL and they completely skirted over $200 opting to instead hit a familiar price point) >_>;

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

i wouldn't assume at all for a second that they're with any major problems.

Having only one Wii game to look forward to this year isn't a major problem?

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Not to a Nintendo fanboy.

Now where's my Animal Crossing?

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I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo
Now this is entertainment!

It depends on what you mean by "die off." Nintendo isn't any different from any other company. People tend to forget there was a time when Mario and Zelda and Smash Bros. weren't enough to push more than about 20 million consoles. I don't think they'll fail in the sense that they'll go third party, or that they'll suffer multiple years of loss, but they're in a vulnerable position now, and it doesn't take many mistakes before another competitor swoops in take your spot at the top. Nintendo will still, ultimately, make money and recover from where they're at right now, but it wouldn't happen in a major way unless they make some changes. Right now, there's little indication that's happening with their current devices. It's an exaggeration to say Nintendo is screwed, but it's an underestimation of what's happened to say it's "eh, whatever -- PRICE DROP" and everything gets better.

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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

Heroic Mario on the ball as always.

The last time I powered on my wii was to play Harvest Moon: ANimal Parade when it was new,

I use my PSP and PS3 all the damn time, in no small part because it does more than JUST gaming, while still being game-centric, aka perfect for me. My DS does get significant play and I have such a backlog for it, theres really no point buying a 3DS until it has something I MUST HAVE and a remake of OoT isnt going to cut it.

Wheres the New Castelvania? or Tactics advance 3? Or like a new handheld Metroid?

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From: ZFS | #125
Right now, there's little indication that's happening with their current device.

An $80 price cut seems like huge indication to me. I think they have acknowledged the past few months as disappointing and unsatisfactory (hell, given that they're Japanese, they probably consider it shameful). I assume they are at the drawing board following such a bad few months, not saying "we've still got Mario, it's all good."

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hell the more I think of it, was there ANY reasons Pokemon Black/White wasnt a 3DS launch title? That seems like a wasted opportunity

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An $80 price cut seems like huge indication to me. I think they have acknowledged the past few months as disappointing and unsatisfactory (hell, given that they're Japanese, they probably consider it shameful). I assume they are at the drawing board following such a bad few months, not saying "we've still got Mario, it's all good."

Is a good sign for the 3DS. But will Nintendo learn from this with the Wii U? That's where they really need to get on the ball, and it doesn't look like it's going to happen.

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Calling Pokemon RBY a top 10 game was the most insane contest jibba-jabba ever
Woe unto he who sig bets with the near-invincible Lord High creativename

when you're fielding the kind of money they are and can follow through on business like they have... not really, no. had they continued to leave it running then yes, it'd be a problem, but to fix it within half a year? says you're on top of it, know what you're doing, know you made a mistake, and know where it should be fine. they're vulnerable in much the same way as Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc are, aka, 'not really.' their two main focuses are pretty much completely on the 3DS and the Wii U, and price is the main issue they were faced with. as a company they've been pretty on top of things for a good while now and have consistently shown they know what they're doing for the past decade, including the news of the price drop. they've got a lot planned and set up for the 3DS to enter winter looking great and during winter looking awesome - they just need to hit the entry level point. hence, price drop. the library's already set for it so that issue's out. so... yeah, that part really does boil down to 'PRICE DROP'. the main lesson meanwhile is $250 doesn't sell for a handheld, so be mindful as to what does for a console. could see 'em trying to shoot for $250 on the Wii U again as a result of this.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

That probably wasn't clear as it was in my mind. I totally agree that the $80 price drop is a very aggressive response to sluggish sales and Vita's price announcement. I meant more in terms of innovation and software -- 3D isn't a selling point for people with the 3DS, it remains to be seen if a screen on the controller is enough to drive WiiU sales. The fact they're selling for the 3DS for a loss can backfire if it doesn't sell what they're expecting, but it's a big deal that it happened. How well it does, or doesn't, will be huge going forward.

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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

From: XxSoulxX | #129
Is a good sign for the 3DS. But will Nintendo learn from this with the Wii U? That's where they really need to get on the ball, and it doesn't look like it's going to happen.

But we have no idea. Who knows how many changes they've made (or discussed making) to the Wii U since E3, when the 3DS really started slowing down? They've been completely mum since then, but I'm certain the 3DS struggles have caused them to rethink much about the Wii U, especially very recently.

I mean, what do you want them to do? Delay by a year so they can launch alongside the other two and guarantee similar power?

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would assume the 3D is a big part behind those initial sales, just that everyone else is shakey on it and wondering whether how well that works or not, which leads you to people judging it based on price to see if it's worth trying or not. at 250, no. at 180, they assume yes. and with enough time - and incentive - to see if some people will bite before the price drop. but the solution to that's two fold: you need to establish a large enough base that will try it so it can spread across more (aka, price), and you need to establish that it's actually relevant to the system (aka, games). if there's a couple games that do it very well and would not be the same experience without the 3D effects, then you've got the point that you've been trying to make. the more, the better. so far, based on the stuff out, they're gonna nail that point before the year's end.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

they don't even need to do that. when you realize the Wii U's over a year away, has two Nintendo conferences to go through and another E3 - the one that actually matters most to the system - along with who knows how many presentations they'll do to hype it? ...yeah it's pretty obvious they have some big plans for it and as always have a million secrets held to their chest. whole thing makes any comments of 'well i don't think they learned anything i mean look at the wii u!' look silly seeing how we barely know a couple specs (which seem to be great), a couple games (yet no new ones because why on earth would they do that over a year ahead of time), and a couple functions. and the controller of course, since that's the hardest sell. which is made considerably easier when people can sit on it for a year and you can decide what to do accordingly and show it at the next major event in how it ought to be, cleanly.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

But we have no idea. Who knows how many changes they've made (or discussed making) to the Wii U since E3, when the 3DS really started slowing down? They've been completely mum since then, but I'm certain the 3DS struggles have caused them to rethink much about the Wii U, especially very recently.

I mean, what do you want them to do? Delay by a year so they can launch alongside the other two and guarantee similar power?

If Nintendo has gone back to the drawing board for the Wii U, that would be one of the best things they can do. From what Nintendo has announced, the Wii U will be as powerful as the 360. That is what they desperately need to fix. That would have worked if this was 6 years ago, but now the bigger systems are moving onto something more powerful, and the third parties will follow.

As far as my opinion, I think they need to upgrade the tech in the Wii U to be as strong as the next gen consoles. They need third party support. The only way they will get those ports at the same time as the other consoles is if they have something that can play those ports. The controller and hard drive space, while both important, are secondary to that point.

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Calling Pokemon RBY a top 10 game was the most insane contest jibba-jabba ever
Woe unto he who sig bets with the near-invincible Lord High creativename

From: XxSoulxX | #135
From what Nintendo has announced, the Wii U will be as powerful as the 360.

See, like how do you know this? What have they announced? I thought rumors were rife about Wii U's specs.

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Totally in agreeance with Soul here.

Not necessarily because I think I know **** about what Nintendo should do from a business standpoint.

I just want to play my god damn Nintendo franchises on a real console.

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Mer

Yes, I think everyone understands how it's supposed to work. If you provide a good price with good games the hardware will sell. It doesn't necessarily mean that's how it will play out, and it's more important that the milestone they've set out is hit by the end of the fiscal year now that they're selling the system at a loss instead of a profit. It's going to be even more important that Mario and Mario Kart are major sellers, because that's what will offset the losses. I think the 3DS will do well at $170, I think Mario will do well this holiday, but it's not so much a matter that it does well but that it reaches a certain level. Nintendo could have absolutely gone through the holiday priced at $250, with a price drop to come afterward, and they would have been fine. Their reasoning for the cut is to drive sales high enough that it can become the "successor to the DS." Their reasoning is sound, but whether or not it does the numbers they need it to do are another matter. Vita is another thing they have to keep an eye on this holiday.

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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

See, like how do you know this? What have they announced? I thought rumors were rife about Wii U's specs.

I could have sworn they announced that it would be comparable to the PS3/360. If that's not the case, then it's definitely a good thing. However, I'm not getting my hopes up for that.

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Calling Pokemon RBY a top 10 game was the most insane contest jibba-jabba ever
Woe unto he who sig bets with the near-invincible Lord High creativename

It depends on what you mean by "die off." Nintendo isn't any different from any other company. People tend to forget there was a time when Mario and Zelda and Smash Bros. weren't enough to push more than about 20 million consoles. I don't think they'll fail in the sense that they'll go third party, or that they'll suffer multiple years of loss, but they're in a vulnerable position now, and it doesn't take many mistakes before another competitor swoops in take your spot at the top. Nintendo will still, ultimately, make money and recover from where they're at right now, but it wouldn't happen in a major way unless they make some changes. Right now, there's little indication that's happening with their current devices. It's an exaggeration to say Nintendo is screwed, but it's an underestimation of what's happened to say it's "eh, whatever -- PRICE DROP" and everything gets better.

well this is what I was saying, really. going back to where they were at the gamecube for instance, I regard that as normal for nintendo. the wii is not typical. so I'm not really worried if they sell less consoles or whatever, they've proven they've got a little niche they can be comfortable in. I don't think anyone really expected their next console to be as big as the wii was. grandma isn't suddenly a gamer now, looking forward to the next console.

I guess them releasing a handheld that sucked is iffy, but they've been in that position before too. I'll be surprised if anyone permanently beats them out in the handheld market and I'll be surprised if they aren't still turning out profits consistently over the next few years, despite losing a cut of market share when the Wii U inevitably isn't as bit a deal as the Wii was.

From what Nintendo has announced, the Wii U will be as powerful as the 360.

...uh, no. one of the few things we do know is the general model of the vid card (Radeon 4850 and 4890 are more or less the same). this is a vid card made in 2009.
the 360 runs roughly an X1900, just heavily modified and optimized. a late 2005/early 2006 card.
the PS3 runs a 7800GT pretty much straight. a summer to fall 2005 card.

360's vid card is a better than the PS3's, but the Wii U's absolutely dwarfs both by miles to the point where if you can find ANY comparison to either of those cards it's a miracle because they're so goddamn old.

that stat, on its own, tells you that it's much more powerful. all they've said in interviews is that it can do everything the PS3 and 360 can, with no hints to how much better or anything because why on earth would they do that with over a year. you release your spec sheet a couple months later so that you don't have to deal with your competitors checking you out knowing 100% what's inside. there's also rumors of 'similar architecture' to the CPU, but nobody knows exactly what that means regarding cores, how good they are, or anything there. for all we know they basically told AMD to convert a hexacore into 3 and are doing that. most of the hardware we dont' know and there's no real way of knowing until they tell us. the vid card itself isnt' even that good of a value to use because after optimization it could very well work more like its sequel as the two weren't that far off either. the only thing that does however is establish a minimum benchmark. which is basically 'pretty damn good.'

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

OmarsComin posted...
well this is what I was saying, really. going back to where they were at the gamecube for instance, I regard that as normal for nintendo. the wii is not typical. so I'm not really worried if they sell less consoles or whatever, they've proven they've got a little niche they can be comfortable in. I don't think anyone really expected their next console to be as big as the wii was. grandma isn't suddenly a gamer now, looking forward to the next console.

I guess them releasing a handheld that sucked is iffy, but they've been in that position before too. I'll be surprised if anyone permanently beats them out in the handheld market and I'll be surprised if they aren't still turning out profits consistently over the next few years, despite losing a cut of market share when the Wii U inevitably isn't as bit a deal as the Wii was.

Well, nothing is permanent in this industry. That's the overall point that I was driving at. Nintendo was the market leader once, then they lost that position to Sony for a good decade, and then they took it back this gen. No one is assured the top spot all the time just because they're doing well at the moment. I don't know that I would regard the GameCube as normal for Nintendo, though -- that was the lowest point in their history, which is what drove them to make changes with the Wii. I think they will end up losing market share in both the portable and console space, but being so financially conservative they'll still come out fine in the long run. They've grown large enough to be able to withstand a failure, just not multiple strings of them.

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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

Why?

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Hey all this is Bartz btw.

So we can have nothing but social games. Viva la Farmville!

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From: KingButz | #144
Why?

So Nintendo can come and save it again

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It will launch for $350 with some Wii Sports s***. I bet my life on it. Damn, that KoolAid guy is awesome - NGamer64

It's Nintendo's turn to get some of the hate/laughs, Microsoft and Sony had their turn.

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Apparently everything hitting rock bottom will make everyone realize what's really important in life and they'll get back to making fun games

*goes begrudgingly to play Assassin's Creed II and Uncharted 2, what a terrible era we live in*

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JeffZero 9:07 pm
The DS had a bad set of launch titles too. Honestly, I mean, almost everything does. Right now they do have a good title -- the remake for Ocarina of Time -- but it's not enough to assuage fears of the PlayStation Vita launching at $249 (the same thing the 3DS went for five months ago 'til now) and looking a lot better.
It also helps that Sony has made sure to tell people the Vita isn't another PSP.
Nintendo is only just now waking up and realizing how many people think the 3DS is another DS.
I polled nine people, ultimately, including you and Brandon and Thom. It was an inadvertent poll but it was extrapolatory data.
All nine of you thought it was another DS.

Person whose name I'm not divulging 9:10 pm
Yeah, I mean, I saw the demo at Gamestop even. It just seemed like a DS with 3D.
I didn't even realize it was "supposed to be" another system.

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Pretty understandable.




To most people, this is a revision.

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