Board 8 > Batmans begins ending question. Spoilers. Ra's al Ghul.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Was it ever confirmed if he died at the end? His character revolved around immortality in the comics, and it showed him meditating right before his last scene in batman begins. Did he die?

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RAG is immortal because he bathes in the Lazarus Pits to regain his youth. He can be killed.

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It's left intentionally open, maybe he died maybe not. And yes indeed there are rumors about the next Batman movie on that point...

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He needs to come back in the next movie so he can call Batman "Detective".

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That said, there's no way Batman could have known Ras would survive that train wreck, so his leaving him to die like that was...odd

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yeah according to wikipedia he's in the dark knight rises

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From: DeathChicken | #005
That said, there's no way Batman could have known Ras would survive that train wreck, so his leaving him to die like that was...odd

Right, there's really no excuse for that. "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" is a terrible Batman line; ALL life is sacred to Batman. He's the kind of guy who will save the Joker from being wrongly executed for a crime he didn't do, because that's just how damn noble he is.

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From: DeathChicken | #005
That said, there's no way Batman could have known Ras would survive that train wreck, so his leaving him to die like that was...odd

"I don't have to kill you, but I also don't have to save you" is pretty self-explanatory though

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TheKoolAidShoto posted...
ALL life is sacred to Batman.

Not the lives of DOGS!

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Mershaaay posted...
yeah according to wikipedia he's in the dark knight rises

It'd be awesome if he hadn't died. As for his name in DKR, I heard it's a flashback for Bane. Hopefully not just that >_>

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That line is the reason I refuse to accept anyone thinking Begins > Dark Knight

****ing awful.

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Mershaaay posted...
yeah according to wikipedia he's in the dark knight rises

It'd be awesome if he isn't dead.. As for his name in DKR, I heard it's a flashback for Bane. Hopefully not just that >_>

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Scarecrow was in Dark Knight, do we really want something that lame again?

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I also LOL'd when just threw those dogs over the edge. What a dick!

But yeah, if The Joker was about to jump off an edge and possibly kill himself, Batman would dive after him and try to save him. He wouldn't think, "Well, that guy is totally a murdering dick, f*** him I aint helping him".

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From: KimPilgrim | #012
That line is the reason I refuse to accept anyone thinking Begins > Dark Knight

****ing awful.

Agree.

From: MarvelousGerbil | #009
Not the lives of DOGS!

He does care about animals, but if dogs attack him, of course he's gonna defend himself. I don't think he's ever actually killed animals if he could help it. Well he killed some birds, because there were thousands of them driven crazy by the Penguin and forced to attack everyone, so Batman didn't really have a choice. He saved a cat from a burning building.

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Least he likes dogs more than Rorschach.

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But he threw the dogs over the edge!

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From: MarvelousGerbil | #017
But he threw the dogs over the edge!

Those dogs were jerks.

Also that's a movie, as we learned from Batman Begins, doesn't portray Batman's sense of life as well as, y'know, comic books.

To my knowledge, he's never killed a dog. I could be forgetting though.

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my friend's excuse for that line is "well it was when he just started as batman"

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That is true. He's still not fully Batman, despite the "I'm Batman" line, even at the end of the film. Its a slow transformation he's going throughout all three of the Nolan films. Ya know what, he probably killed a f***ton of people when he blew up the ninja fortress!

Still accidently killed Harvey though! Or can was that even an accident? Nolan needs to learn how to film action one of these days.

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From: KimPilgrim | Posted: 8/21/2011 10:20:20 PM | #012
That line is the reason I refuse to accept anyone thinking Begins > Dark Knight

****ing awful.

I'm okay with that line really. That line makes the movie a less faithful adaptation from the comics, but to people who haven't read the comics and just go there expecting a good movie, it's fine. You can argue it's less faithful to the comics, but that doesn't really prevent it from being just, you know, a good movie. There are plenty of good movies that don't follow their source material.

...That said I still think Dark Knight > Begins.

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the thing that bugs me the most about the batman movies is how he kind of completely plows over everything in the batmobile.

the second movie even showed a kid just sitting in the car watching everything explode around him.

WHAT IF THE CAR WITH THAT KID WAS IN YOUR WAY, BATMAN?

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Batman would see the kid, jump out of his Batmobile while in motion, land on the car, open the door, grab the kid, swing him to safety, then get back to the Batmobile just before it blows up the car the kid was just saved from.

What a badass.

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Or like how in Batman Begins he totally plows over a bunch of houses. Who knows who got hurt. I mean, he didn't intent to, but there ya go.

At least its better then '89 Burton Batman, where he goes out and intentionally blows up a factory full of people like he's the f***ing Punisher or something.

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like, i think i wouldn't mind it as much if they didn't show the kid. i probably would have just thought "well i guess we're just supposed to assume no one ever stays in a parked car in gotham." which is fine, i can suspend my disbelief that far.

but then they go ahead and put that kid in a car and my brain thinks "well eff you batman".

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Was that kid alone in the car anyway? I can't remember. If he was, I think the problem is the parents leaving a kid alone in Gotham f***ing City.

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what line is it you guys hate from begins ?

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From: SnoicFactor | #027
what line is it you guys hate from begins ?

Read the topic.

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I half expect them to retcon that line in Rises. 'Yeah, Ra's told me about the Pits, so I totally knew he'd live through that'

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In the early comics batman had no trouble killing people, so I don't see what everyone's issue is here. Not every portrayal of Batman is going to match up perfectly with the current one from the comics.

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ChichiriMuyo posted...
In the early comics batman had no trouble killing people, so I don't see what everyone's issue is here. Not every portrayal of Batman is going to match up perfectly with the current one from the comics.

People like to complain, so they have to nit pick about tiny inconsistencies in the two best Superhero movies OF ALL TIME!

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From: ChichiriMuyo | #030
In the early comics batman had no trouble killing people, so I don't see what everyone's issue is here.

That was literally the 1930's.

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From: TheKoolAidShoto | #007
Right, there's really no excuse for that. "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" is a terrible Batman line; ALL life is sacred to Batman. He's the kind of guy who will save the Joker from being wrongly executed for a crime he didn't do, because that's just how damn noble he is.

I barely know Batman from the comics, but I agree that that line really caught me off guard; it's completely unlike him.

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For those of you complaining about Batman leaving Ra's to die, how would you have fixed that scene? You can't make the movie significantly longer or more complicated, and Ra's still has to die.

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Bats suckerpunches Ra's, knocks him out, and locks him up. Simple.

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Simple. Have Bats *try* to save him, but Ra's won't let him (He knows he'll get better, but Bats doesn't)

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KimPilgrim posted...
Bats suckerpunches Ra's, knocks him out, and locks him up. Simple.

Not enough theatrics for a movie these days. That would be really anticlimactic and a lot of people would have probably liked that a lot less.

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That was literally the 1930's.

and? why would an IP's CREATORS be considered a less accurate authority on its characters than random people that came along 80 years later and started writing for it?

From: DeathChicken | #036
Simple. Have Bats *try* to save him, but Ra's won't let him (He knows he'll get better, but Bats doesn't)

Better than my idea.

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From: KimPilgrim | #002
RAG is immortal because he bathes in the Lazarus Pits to regain his youth. He can be killed.

I was pretty sure he wasn't even immortal to begin with in the Nolan-verse.

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From: Liquid Wind | #038
That was literally the 1930's.

and? why would an IP's CREATORS be considered a less accurate authority on its characters than random people that came along 80 years later and started writing for it?

Awful logic.

Let's just keep Deadpool as a super serious dark and gritty mercenary Deathstroke ripoff, that'll work.

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Liquid Wind posted...
That was literally the 1930's.

and? why would an IP's CREATORS be considered a less accurate authority on its characters than random people that came along 80 years later and started writing for it?

Because it's not how things are these days. When you have literally 80 years of "continutiy" with who knows how many alternate realities and reboots, the original is hardly more important than how he's portrayed today.

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MarvelousGerbil posted...
Liquid Wind posted...
That was literally the 1930's.

and? why would an IP's CREATORS be considered a less accurate authority on its characters than random people that came along 80 years later and started writing for it?

Because it's not how things are these days. When you have literally 80 years of "continutiy" with who knows how many alternate realities and reboots, the original is hardly more important than how he's portrayed today.

reboots/alternate realities is a good point as it isn't strictly the same characters, but "because that's how it is" is almost as stupid as what ltm posted. that being said, nolans batman is also off in his own universe and doesn't have to adhere to every little detail in the comics either, so that pretty much voids the entire complaint over this line.

To my knowledge, he's never killed a dog. I could be forgetting though

He has. I remember it specifically. It was one of Dini's books, Detective Comics, a few years back. I wanna say the villain was Great White. Anyway, he said he didn't have time to waste on safely disposing of them, so he just snapped some dogs' necks.

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Yeah it's nitpicky but you really can't say you don't understand the complaint. Batman has been opposed to murder/not helping people for much longer than he's been ok with it. You can make the argument that Nolan's Batman is different and you're probably right in some respects, but it's a very fundamental aspect of who he is in pretty much every work of fiction involving him that almost literally every person is familiar with (except the Burton movie, but that's a whole different story too). Again, I can see why it bothers people, but honestly it doesn't affect my enjoyment of an amazing movie.

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The best thing about that line is Batman's actions directly lead to Ras' death, so the line is inaccurate to begin with.

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From: Liquid Wind | #038
why would an IP's CREATORS be considered a less accurate authority on its characters than random people that came along 80 years later and started writing for it?

There's a common misconception that gun-toting The Shadow version of the Batman was always the creators intent. The fact of the matter is that this "original" version of Batman lasted about two years.

By 1940's Batman #4, in a story by co-creators Bill Finger and Bob Kane -- which is about as definitive as you can get -- Batman reminds Robin that "we never kill with weapons of any kind."

As crazy as it might sound, the Batman who killed in those early stories wasn't really Batman -- or at least, not Batman as he'd become, and certainly not Batman as we think of him today. Keep in mind that when these stories were told, Batman wasn't just a new character, he was a new character in an entirely new medium. The Golden Age is full of comics by people that were driven as much by the desire to create stories as they were by the sudden and extremely lucrative popularity that medium was enjoying after Superman became such a massive success. These were guys who were literally just making it up as they went along, and as a result, the stories and their internal continuity took a few years to settle down and become a coherent whole.

To give you an idea of just how mutable these stories were, consider this: The single most important thing about Batman as a character, the fact that his parents were murdered and his decision to become a vigilante to avenge their deaths, did not exist until six months after he was created. The murder, the vow, the bat crashing through the window, everything that we think of as the core of his character didn't appear until Detective Comics #33, and that's only the start of the idea of "Batman" becoming a cohesive, unique entity. Before that, he's definitely recognizable as a prototype, but he's not Batman just yet.

The first couple years he's just a Shadow rip-off:



he millionaire playboy alter-ego, the spooky presence, even the fact that he flies around in an autogyro and battles against mad scientists and Yellow Peril caricatures, those were all things lifted from the Shadow -- and so were the guns and the killing.

Batman just doesn't kill. That's it. That is one of the core concepts of WHO BATMAN IS.

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From: KimPilgrim | #035
Bats suckerpunches Ra's, knocks him out, and locks him up. Simple.

Ra's has to die. He's clearly made out to be too powerful (and Gotham's justice system too corrupt) for "lock him up" to be the end of him.

From: DeathChicken | #036
Simple. Have Bats *try* to save him, but Ra's won't let him (He knows he'll get better, but Bats doesn't)

That doesn't work, because the AUDIENCE doesn't know about the Lazarus Pits either. Also as I believe it's been said in this topic, the Lazarus Pits won't necessarily save him from being blown up, and as far as we know the Lazarus Pits don't even EXIST in the Nolanverse. Trying to introduce them just so Batman can try to save him complicates the movie too much.

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