you remember when a bunch of websites got taken away, including a bunch of sites nobody understood WHY they were taken away? <_<; well, that one explained itself somewhat well.
$440 million stolen in it. literally paying poker players with money that would be from other poker players and repeat.
--
The future must protect the clone's past. "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.
I believe if everyone suddenly wanted their money back from a bank for the most part would be able to pay them when the money they loaned out comes back. Full Tilt Poker doesn't have the money at all.
--
Pokemon VGC2011 NW Regional - Top 8 Pokemon VGC2011 US Nationals - 54th place
It seems it's pretty easy to get called a Ponzi scheme these days. "Full Tilt Poker (apparently) had less cash than deposits. But banks do the same thing," NYT's @fivethirtyeight tweeted."That's not, intrinsically, a problem... Problems: (i) FTP may have misled players about this (ii) risk of "run on the bank" was high. But calling it a Ponzi scheme is spin..." - http://consumerist.com/2011/09/us-accuses-full-tilt-poker-of-operating-300-million-ponzi-scheme.html
It was really just plain old embezzlement.
--
Please don't go. The Drones need you. Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.
funnily enough, that's the argument they're making. from the wall street journal blog (exerpts taken as it's too long otherwise and the link's weird):
Attorneys for Full Tilt Poker on Wednesday fired back at the U.S. Justice Department's civil case against the poker website, decrying the government's assertion that their company ran a massive "Ponzi scheme" that allegedly bilked Internet poker players out of $300 million.
"While the government has obviously taken issue with the underlying activities of FTP, under any reasonable interpretation, the world-wide operations of the online cardroom are not a so-called Ponzi scheme," said Ian Imrich, an attorney for Full Tilt owner and board member Chris Ferguson.
The issues at Full Tilt should be likened to that of a problematic bank, rather than an illegal investment scheme, according to Jeff Ifrah, an attorney who represents the company in related litigation and is the personal attorney of Chief Executive Raymond Bitar. "A Ponzi scheme requires an investment vehicle in order to receive a certain rate of high return," Mr. Ifrah said. "None of those things happened here." Instead, he said, "maybe it was mismanaged."
The Justice Department had no comment on the attorneys' remarks Wednesday.
Mr. Ferguson and Howard Lederer, among other top poker players, started Full Tilt in 2004 and steered it to become an online giant, used by thousands of players betting billions of dollars every year.
The allegations prompted an outcry of anger throughout poker Internet forums and social media outlets from the thousands of poker players in the U.S. who had $160 million credited to their Full Tilt poker player accounts but have not been paid the money.
They are an expansion of a civil case the U.S. government filed in April against Full Tilt, other large online poker concerns and several executives at the companies alleging money laundering, bank fraud and illegal gambling. The government also filed criminal charges against the companies and some of the company's executives.
In explaining the alleged scheme, the government, in its complaint Tuesday, said that Full Tilt Poker allowed players to gamble with "phantom money that Full Tilt Poker never actually collected or possessed," according to the complaint. As a result, "Full Tilt Poker soon developed a massive shortfall between the money owed to United States players and the money actually collected from United States players," the government alleged.
Also, between April 2007 and April 2011, various owners and directors of Full Tilt collected $444 million dollars from the company for themselves, the government alleges.
The shortfall continued to grow after the company stopped operating in the U.S. in April. It continued to take money from players elsewhere even though funds to pay them back were growing increasingly slim, according to people with knowledge of the situation, as well as the government filing.
The characterization that Full Tilt's problems were a "Ponzi scheme" increases the risk that Full Tilt will permanently lose its license to operate outside of the U.S., said people familiar with the company's situation. It also has spooked possible investors that might have helped it to pay back the more than $300 million that the government says it owes poker players, they said.
From: red sox 777 | #003 Not sure how this is different from a bank, assuming they were going to be able to pay everyone when they wanted to withdraw in perpetuity.
Banks actually have things like credit cards and fees, memberships etc that rake them in huge money. One of the issues with Ponzi schemes is that the money they make from the scheme is not as much as the promised investment. Not sure how much Full Tilt was into it though.
I believe if everyone suddenly wanted their money back from a bank for the most part would be able to pay them when the money they loaned out comes back
You believe wrong. Most banks are leveraged to a ridiculous agree.
-- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif
Chrono1219 posted... From: red sox 777 | #003 Banks actually have things like credit cards and fees, memberships etc that rake them in huge money. One of the issues with Ponzi schemes is that the money they make from the scheme is not as much as the promised investment. Not sure how much Full Tilt was into it though.
That's the main reason this wasn't a Ponzi scheme. There were no outlandish promised returns, and you weren't "investing" anything besides the ability to buy-in to tables and tournaments. That doesn't mean what they did wasn't illegal. It just wasn't part of a crime fad.
--
Please don't go. The Drones need you. Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.
they are trying to compare themselves to a bank at least. though yeah, i can't see it work, if for no other reason because you saw what happened when banks started failing. they simply can't. poker sites?
tough ****. though i do enjoy it being "mismanaged."
--
The future must protect the clone's past. "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.
oh they definitely are making this as big as they possibly can and will try their best to argue the case while also making poker sites in general look like total crap.
<_<; as for what a bank does if everyone wants their money, pay them. or ask the government for some again.
--
The future must protect the clone's past. "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.
Yeah, I'm thinking the DOJ is just making its accusations are grandiose as possible to make FTP look bad in the court of public opinion.
The thing is, I'm thinking it's probable that the only reason FTP can't pay people back is that they were shut down. If you just shut down all a bank's operations, they wouldn't be able to pay out their deposits either.
im surprised it took this long. The poker scene rose so ****ing fast in like 2004/2005/2006, and then really started to fall back to earth after the novelty of online poker and ESPN showing the WSOP wore off.
Also seeing FTP ads on tv....man it just seemed fishy as hell.
Basically this is what happens when you outlaw a sector of the economy to the point that they commit wire fraud to stay in business. Some sketchy people are going to take advantage of the lack of oversight. If online poker were legal and regulated like casinos this would never have happened.
--
Please don't go. The Drones need you. Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.
From: Team Rocket Elite | #052 You believe wrong. Most banks are leveraged to a ridiculous agree.
Guess I was wrong then. What do they do if everybody did suddenly want their money?
If I recall, because of teh great depression the government put a buncha checks in place to prevent a crash like this. While only a percentage of the money is actually kept at the banks (the rest of it is lent out/invested), I believe US banks have 100K insurance.
In general if everyone suddenly wanted their money a few things would happen. The banks would sell off some of their investments to get the money and the government would have to step in. Not saying a buncha banks would not close down, or that the entire actual circulation of the money would not take a while.
Banks use our money for investing/giving people loans/whatever. In Canada they also have to give a portion of our money to the Bank of Canada just incase they go bankrupt so people don't lose everything.
--
BOP Results: http://charmander6000.webs.com/GotD%20BOP.xls Congratulations to Black Turtle for winning the guru contest.
I'm absolutely amazed that so many of you have no idea how fractional reserve banking works. Particularly you, TRE. When's the last time you updated your firmware?
-- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif
Not sure if this ties into anything, as it never explicitly mentioned anything about it in the article, but as an individual who had used their services, in retrospect, it definitely seemed like it was rigged. I couldn't have counted the number of times someone's aces were busted by someone with something ridiculous like 3/7 off-suit, who had no business being in the hand. I tried the thing twice, only playing the low-stakes games, and both outings ended quite abruptly, leaving me with nothing in my account.
At this point, I decided to try PokerStars, where I played for a good 8-10 months, ending with a balance more than I had deposited. I hadn't gotten that much better as a player; I had simply not gotten screwed over in situations that should have never come to be.
Also, between April 2007 and April 2011, various owners and directors of Full Tilt collected $444 million dollars from the company for themselves, the government alleges.
So with this statement, it wouldn't surprise me at all if those players with those 3/7 hands were actually bots run by the owners and directors to funnel money into their own accounts. That's just my two cents, anyway.
--
Xbox GT/PSN name: TatteredUniform http://img.imgcake.com/craterbuttonsgifus.gif
So with this statement, it wouldn't surprise me at all if those players with those 3/7 hands were actually bots run by the owners and directors to funnel money into their own accounts. That's just my two cents, anyway.
Uh, wouldn't it be even MORE embarrassing to lose at poker to a bot? Especially if, as you allege, the bot is programmed to make POOR decisions, like staying in a hand when it's 3-7 offsuit pre-flop.
-- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif
I'm saying the tournaments altogether were rigged. As in, every bot knows pre-flop which hands their cards will win. And that's why the hand plays out as it does.
As in, every bot knows pre-flop which hands their cards will win
Ehhhh, I think if this were true someone would have discovered it and it would have been a big deal. I won't say it's impossible, but I'd probably need more than your limited anecdotal experience to believe it.
-- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif
I guess I don't understand how online poker works. I thought you were just playing against other players, and they only money you won was the money they wagered, so all the money in circulation was money that a player had originally deposited. How do you run out of money when all you're doing is passing it around?
Yeah, there have definitely been some problems in online poker. Ultimate Bet was fixed, and that was found out. Most places probably don't have the capital to pay EVERYONE at once.
That said, most of it isn't fixed. The "I see tons of bad beats"... well, yeah, you see like 20x as many hands per hour, of course you do.
I really wish the US would legalize and regulate. Income stream for the government, we could all trust poker sites more. And because I need my fix.
--
My one tangible contribution to LOST fandom and memes: http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7392/lapkatefix.jpg
I'm not sure how exactly you can s*** the bed as a poker company. People deposit money, you take your cut (either pot rakes or tournament fees), make whatever you make putting spyware and adware in your unnecessary updates, and don't use more than you make while the players slowly push around they're dwindling money that's constantly being raked away. It seems like the easiest, most foolproof thing to do, all you have to do is not get greedy because you're already f***ing rich anyway.
I will also agree with whoever said that FTP seemed rigged. I've played more on Pokerstars than on FTP and got like 5x the bulls*** hands on FTP. If they're dumb enough to take more than they had to the tune of almost half a billion, bots and rigging don't seem so crazy.
--
The King of GameFAQs Brawl posting from his phone. http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/board8/images/8/8b/ViviffChampS1.jpg