Board 8 > Most Powerful Fictional Character 2011: Aang vs. Red [MPFC]

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XNevermoreX
10/04/11 5:03:00 AM
#52:


Leaning towards Aang right now. Pretty sure going Avatar State wouldn't be an issue as he can do it at will at his peak. Not to mention it seemed to be instantaneous. As soon as he's "transformed", it sounds like he'd easily overwhelm Red and his pokemon. I could change my mind with more arguments, though.

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Sceptilesolarbeam
10/04/11 5:54:00 AM
#53:


I think Aang would probably win; once he goes into Avatar State, he'd win handily, and I don't really buy that he could be kept under pressure so thoroughly that he doesn't have time to transform, even if it does take a second or two rather than being instantaneous.

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#54
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Pirateking2000
10/04/11 8:29:00 AM
#55:


Okay, I've always wondered this, since it comes up in every single Aang match: where exactly in the final do they say Aang has full control over the Avatar State? From what I remember he pretty much goes into it as a defense mechanism (like he always does); the only difference seems to be that when he's out of it, he doesn't collapse into a heap, but rather he's able to keep talking and standing in his normal state. Is that enough to indicate that he has full control over it? Am I missing something?



I think it went something like this.

1. Aang goes to the Guru to learn how to control the Avatar State (do it at will / not just do it when he goes into blind rage mode)

2. Aang masters all of the chakras (Avatar state mastery requires mastering all the chakras or something) except one because he refuses to let go of Katara. However I believe he finds a way around this (kind of like how Roku was able to be with the one he loved and still had AS mastery)

3. Azula snipes Aang and this experience cuts Aang off from the avatar state

4. Phoenix King Ozai screws up and somehow reconnects Aang to Avatar State due to an impact at the right point then Aang promptly destroys Ozai.

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#56
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Sceptilesolarbeam
10/04/11 8:43:00 AM
#57:


As long as he can take out Aerodactyl, I figure he could just fly out of the nonflyer's range to transform, and Aerodactyl has a big water weakness. I think he's agile enough to evade attacks long enough to disable the opposing flier and then use the opportunity to transform.

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FL81
10/04/11 8:43:00 AM
#58:


Red has a counter to each of the elements, plus the numbers are on his side (6 vs. 1)

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muddersmilk
10/04/11 9:09:00 AM
#59:


If Aang goes AS, he dominates this. Aerodactyl is never getting through that airshield and will be repeatedly blasted out of the sky. Vine whip, razor leaf, volt tackle will also hit the shield and stop. Water gun will fuel the shield. Lightning gets redirected or flat out stopped by the four element shield. Snorlax can't really do anything and eventually he and Poly will get frozen/trapped in the ground like Aang likes to do to ground troops. The others are slowly beaten to a pulp and knocked unconcious/incapacitated.

If Aang doesn't go AS he is getting owned and probably very quickly. Just to much power and numbers there.

Since Aang isn't starting in AS state and will almost certainly try and fight normally first I'm going with Red. Besides, anyone who watches the show knows Aangs first reaction to seeing the pokemon is going to be to get really excited about them. It's Aang. That means the Pokemon get a free shot to start and from there I'm not sure Aang ever gets time to recover.

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Pirateking2000
10/04/11 9:21:00 AM
#60:


Im just wondering if Red would seriously whip out all 6 of his pokemon right off the bat against one guy. I mean I could see it if he was losing or if Aang went Avatar State...

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KanzarisKelshen
10/04/11 9:26:00 AM
#61:


From: Pirateking2000 | #060
Im just wondering if Red would seriously whip out all 6 of his pokemon right off the bat against one guy. I mean I could see it if he was losing or if Aang went Avatar State...


Red has a talent for assessing situations like this, yes. Pokémon trainers are way more badass in Pokémon Special. For reference, Red's eternal rival, Green (AKA Blue if you played the games) managed to pull off a Pokémon move himself, Mind Reader. Red is similarly skillful.

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_Regaro_
10/04/11 9:29:00 AM
#62:


Red

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Durandi
10/04/11 9:31:00 AM
#63:


Aang outclasses the Pokemon and could incapacitate Red so he couldn't command his Pokemon.

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Pirateking2000
10/04/11 9:31:00 AM
#64:


Still though seems weird that he would go OK EVERYONE STOMP HIm and whip out a ton of pokemon on a 13 years old (ok I know Aang is WAY older but yknow what I mean)

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BlackMetalex
10/04/11 10:19:00 AM
#65:


Yeah, honestly, I don't see either of these characters taking this fight seriously, right away, with both characters realizing the other guy isn't a bad person and treating more as sort of a sparring match/friendly rival fight. But Red's going to pretty quickly realize how strong Aang is and send out more of his Pokemon to give him a good fight. Aang is going to be doing respectable in this match, being pretty skilled at blocking and fighting multiple opponents, but all Red has to do is land one clean hit on him to win (granted so does Aang, but Red has his pokemon to help him block and avoid attacks). And if Aang does decide to go super serious and enter the avatar state, this totally ends like Season 2.
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GANON1025
10/04/11 10:42:00 AM
#66:


Red

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DeathChicken
10/04/11 10:45:00 AM
#67:


Aang

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KanzarisKelshen
10/04/11 10:53:00 AM
#68:


Red. The arguments for Aang have failed to convince me - Nobody has provided an adequate answer to "Red is on the level of a dude who has multi-mountain busters under his control", the out-of-characterness of the arguments is staggering, and too much emphasis is placed on the Avatar state, when Aang isn't prone to going into it. That would be like arguing Goku would go to SSJ3 the instant a fight started and aim for the kill, which drastically clashes with the established personality for the character.

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saveus_Maria
10/04/11 10:53:00 AM
#69:


Red

lmao

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saveus_Maria
10/04/11 10:54:00 AM
#70:


From: KanzarisKelshen | #068
The arguments for Aang have failed to convince me - Nobody has provided an adequate answer to "Red is on the level of a dude who has multi-mountain busters under his control", the out-of-characterness of the arguments is staggering, and too much emphasis is placed on the Avatar state, when Aang isn't prone to going into it. That would be like arguing Goku would go to SSJ3 the instant a fight started and aim for the kill, which drastically clashes with the established personality for the character.


Aang shouldn't even be allowed in these things anymore. I have never seen a good argument for him to win in any match he has ever been in.

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KanzarisKelshen
10/04/11 11:00:00 AM
#71:


From: saveus_Maria | #070
Aang shouldn't even be allowed in these things anymore. I have never seen a good argument for him to win in any match he has ever been in.


He's still a fun entrant - it's just that some people make ridiculous arguments and forget to take the all-important "personality" character ability into account.

PS: On a sidenote, god DAMN is it hard to find info on Red. I've sifted through the Coronis summaries and have yet to pin down the specific chapters where stuff happens. :-/

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Sceptilesolarbeam
10/04/11 11:12:00 AM
#72:


the out-of-characterness of the arguments is staggering, and too much emphasis is placed on the Avatar state, when Aang isn't prone to going into it. That would be like arguing Goku would go to SSJ3 the instant a fight started and aim for the kill, which drastically clashes with the established personality for the character.

On the other hand, I see the Red side is prone to massive mischaracterizations of opposing arguments!

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KanzarisKelshen
10/04/11 11:13:00 AM
#73:


From: Sceptilesolarbeam | #072
the out-of-characterness of the arguments is staggering, and too much emphasis is placed on the Avatar state, when Aang isn't prone to going into it. That would be like arguing Goku would go to SSJ3 the instant a fight started and aim for the kill, which drastically clashes with the established personality for the character.

On the other hand, I see the Red side is prone to massive mischaracterizations of opposing arguments!


Read PK's arguments and tell me I'm lying. >_>

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#74
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Sceptilesolarbeam
10/04/11 11:16:00 AM
#75:


KanzarisKelshen posted...
From: Sceptilesolarbeam | #072
the out-of-characterness of the arguments is staggering, and too much emphasis is placed on the Avatar state, when Aang isn't prone to going into it. That would be like arguing Goku would go to SSJ3 the instant a fight started and aim for the kill, which drastically clashes with the established personality for the character.

On the other hand, I see the Red side is prone to massive mischaracterizations of opposing arguments!
Read PK's arguments and tell me I'm lying. >_>


That's just pirateking. I haven't seen a reasonable argument from him the whole contest.

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WickIebee
10/04/11 11:19:00 AM
#76:


One argument I've seen thrown out is whether Aang can handle getting hit from all sides... which is one question... how is he gonna be hit from all sides?

It's not like Red is gonna send out his Pokes directly on every side of Aang, and over half of them are huge creatures that Aang wouldn't allow around him...

Snorlax, and Venusaur are gigantic, thus wouldn't be moving all too fast to surround him, Poliwrath would be either human running speed or not fast enough, Gyrados wouldn't go around to fight him, since it has long range game, and Pikachu can be blown away with a small gust...

That's not being hit from all sides, that's getting attacked from the front and easily avoidable if he takes a Hydro Pump and waterbends it up to Aerodactyl before Snorlax and Venusaur have a chance to get started... then he has air advantage...

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KanzarisKelshen
10/04/11 11:26:00 AM
#77:


From: WickIebee | #076
One argument I've seen thrown out is whether Aang can handle getting hit from all sides... which is one question... how is he gonna be hit from all sides?

It's not like Red is gonna send out his Pokes directly on every side of Aang, and over half of them are huge creatures that Aang wouldn't allow around him...

Snorlax, and Venusaur are gigantic, thus wouldn't be moving all too fast to surround him, Poliwrath would be either human running speed or not fast enough, Gyrados wouldn't go around to fight him, since it has long range game, and Pikachu can be blown away with a small gust...

That's not being hit from all sides, that's getting attacked from the front and easily avoidable if he takes a Hydro Pump and
waterbends it up to Aerodactyl before Snorlax and Venusaur have a chance to get started... then he has air advantage...


Venasaur doesn't need to move, because plant attacks are *super* fast. The classic example is the Razor Leaves used by Diamond, but in general plants have very good ranged attacks and Venasaur is no exception. Similarly, Snorlax is so powerful he can reposition every other landbound pokémon on Red's side with a throw.

As for Pikachu getting thrown away by a small gust...as it turns out, he's dealt with big gusts before. Red found a way to maneuver around Mewtwo's Psywave tornados to capture him. Simple wind isn't going to stop his team, which has gotten massively more powerful since then.

EDIT: And of course there's always the possibility of death from above. If you interpret neutral as having clouds of any sort, Pikachu can Thunder and strike Aang from where he least expects it.

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WickIebee
10/04/11 11:31:00 AM
#78:


That's all I wanted, to simply dismiss the surrounding Aang argument, which still is dismissed but dodging is very much needed...

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Mumei
10/04/11 11:47:00 AM
#79:


As for Pikachu getting thrown away by a small gust...as it turns out, he's dealt with big gusts before. Red found a way to maneuver around Mewtwo's Psywave tornados to capture him. Simple wind isn't going to stop his team, which has gotten massively more powerful since then.

Were these tornados doing the sort of damage that the gusts of wind were doing in that clip?


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KanzarisKelshen
10/04/11 11:50:00 AM
#80:


From: Mumei | #079
As for Pikachu getting thrown away by a small gust...as it turns out, he's dealt with big gusts before. Red found a way to maneuver around Mewtwo's Psywave tornados to capture him. Simple wind isn't going to stop his team, which has gotten massively more powerful since then.

Were these tornados doing the sort of damage that the gusts of wind were doing in that clip?


They were far more localized and defensive. The Psywave created an 'active barrier' so to speak - one that did nothing within the eye of the tornado and wreaked havoc to everyone who got close to it. Not really comparable, in the same way you wouldn't compare a Firaga to a Protectga with FF characters.

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KanzarisKelshen
10/04/11 11:51:00 AM
#81:


From: WickIebee | #078
That's all I wanted, to simply dismiss the surrounding Aang argument, which still is dismissed but dodging is very much needed...


The argument isn't dismissed considering the fact that Aang is facing multiple characters capable of flanking him. He has to dodge attacks from below, from the front, from the back, and possibly from above.

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KanzarisKelshen
10/04/11 12:00:00 PM
#6:


Also, and looking at it from a different point of view: how many of us would take Aang over Mewtwo? Nobody? Red has beaten him. Food for thought.

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BlackMetalex
10/04/11 12:05:00 PM
#82:


Also, yeah, if Aang is getting water, than I think Red should be getting clouds which lets him take this pretty easily with thunder. I mean even if aang is capable of redirecting it, I don't think he'll react in time to pull it off since he'll be caught off guard by the aerial strike.
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Shadowmoon30
10/04/11 12:11:00 PM
#83:


Based off all the arguments I've seen so far going to go with Red on this one.

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Silencer S
10/04/11 12:21:00 PM
#84:


It seems like Red has bullrushed people, 6 on 1 before, but would that be his immediate response to a kid that looks like this?

external image

It says he brings out all six when he knows its a "serious fight", but I don't think he'll know that right away.

I'm thinking he'll at least start by sending out one Pokemon; no one could tell which, but I think in any case, even base Aang would beat it. However, I do have enough respect for Red's Pokemon to think that it'll at least be a somewhat contestable fight.

For example, and I know I'm drifting into hypotheticals right now, but let's say Red starts with Venosaur. Aang takes the pain and ends up finishing him with fire attacks. Is Red to then rush him Aang his remaining five, or perhaps send out his water type, thinking Aang's offensive would be ineffective?

After, of course, Aang makes short work of the Poliwrath, Red will probably catch on and send out his remaining four, but I'm not convinced that's enough. By this point, Aang might realize that since the commands are coming from Red, taking him out will solve the issue, and one quick tap should do that just fine.

Aang for now, but I can change my vote.

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KanzarisKelshen
10/04/11 12:22:00 PM
#85:


If he manages to defeat Venasaur Red knows Aang is stronger than a high-level firebreathing dragon, so yeah, he'd send out everybody. Venasaur took an attack that ravaged the landscape without croaking when fighting Deoxys.

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Lopen
10/04/11 12:22:00 PM
#86:


I still don't see why Aang can't just knock Red out. It's in character for him to do it and would be easy without the Avatar state.

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th3l3fty
10/04/11 12:24:00 PM
#87:


Red isn't incapacitated if his Pokemon are still out and fighting tbqh

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Lopen
10/04/11 12:27:00 PM
#88:


It's Aang vs Red I don't see why Aang has to beat the Pokemon. That'd be like saying that a character would have to beat the TARDIS to beat the Doctor...!

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Shoenin_Kakashi
10/04/11 12:27:00 PM
#89:


dun dun DUN

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BlackMetalex
10/04/11 12:29:00 PM
#90:


While not entirely useless, I think Aang could take this if he took out Red early enough in the fight, since whatever Pokemon he had out wouldn't be able to coordinate a strategy. But I don't think Aang's going to go to that strategy until the point when Red has multiple Pokemon out on the field, and he's going to have a hard time getting a hit past them at that point.
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Lopen
10/04/11 12:30:00 PM
#91:


Nah it's definitely in character for Aang to target Red first. He's going to want as little fighting as possible and isn't going to want to fight animals. So yeah if Red starts with just one Pokemon as Silencer S is arguing (makes sense) then this is even easier for Aang.

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Silencer S
10/04/11 12:31:00 PM
#92:


If he manages to defeat Venasaur Red knows Aang is stronger than a high-level firebreathing dragon, so yeah, he'd send out everybody. Venasaur took an attack that ravaged the landscape without croaking when fighting Deoxys.

Hence my respect for Red's Pokemon might put the match more in Aang's favor. I haven't been following the manga so correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I know, if his Pokemon and an opponent have a relatively close fight, and the opponent wins, his standard response is to send out one other Pokemon to continue the battle. Only when he knows his opponent is uber powerful, or his initial pick gets absolutely thrashed does he respond with the gangbang. So if Aang were to thrash Venosaur, yes, he would send out the remaining five, but if the fight is close and Red is only exposed to Aang's fire offense, I think the likely response would be Poliwrath.

By that time, though, Aang would be smart enough to realize that Red's vocal commands are the source of the Pokemon's attacks. Personally, I would realize this seconds into the match, so Aang should be able to as well. I mean, it's obvious. Then all it takes is a gust of wind to the head and Red should be out cold like a baby.

Unless he has some superhuman durability that I'm unaware of.

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Silencer S
10/04/11 12:36:00 PM
#93:


I'll extend my argument a bit. Even if Red is a sadistic lunatic who will send out the remaining five immediately after Venusaur gets beaten, I think the fight between Venusaur and Aang would last long enough to let Aang realize that Red is the source of the Pokemon's actions, and target him instead.

So he might take out Red mid-fight with the first Pokemon, and then promptly finish the Pokemon afterwards. Giving him the victory.

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charmander6000
10/04/11 12:37:00 PM
#94:


IIRC Red would either switch pokemon or send out multiple pokemon before the first pokemon faints. If Aang could OHKO a pokemon then there is probably little hope for Red, even with multiple pokemon.

Another question would be if Aang is smart enough to take out the leader of the group rather than playing around with the pokemon. While Red is more durable than the average human he probably won't be able to take many hits before being killed/knocked out.

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BlackMetalex
10/04/11 12:39:00 PM
#95:


It's not that he really has superhuman durability, he's just skilled at using his pokemon to avoid or block attacks. I mean even a gust of wind isn't instantaneous, and all of Aang's bending is based on the movements of his body, he could have Venusaur either grab him or disrupt Aang before he flew to far. And if Aang directly attacked Red, I think Red would respond by sending out everybody and taking it seriously.
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Pirateking2000
10/04/11 12:41:00 PM
#96:


That'd be like saying that a character would have to beat the TARDIS to beat the Doctor...!


oooooo

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saveus_Maria
10/04/11 12:42:00 PM
#97:


From: Silencer S | #084
I'm thinking he'll at least start by sending out one Pokemon; no one could tell which, but I think in any case, even base Aang would beat it. However, I do have enough respect for Red's Pokemon to think that it'll at least be a somewhat contestable fight.

For example, and I know I'm drifting into hypotheticals right now, but let's say Red starts with Venosaur. Aang takes the pain and ends up finishing him with fire attacks. Is Red to then rush him Aang his remaining five, or perhaps send out his water type, thinking Aang's offensive would be ineffective?

After, of course, Aang makes short work of the Poliwrath, Red will probably catch on and send out his remaining four, but I'm not convinced that's enough. By this point, Aang might realize that since the commands are coming from Red, taking him out will solve the issue, and one quick tap should do that just fine.


1. He'd start with Poliwrath
2. He would start sending in back-up as soon as Poliwrath was getting its ass kicked, and if Poliwrath gets destroyed in one shot or something than the other five are coming out all at once (he'd probably ramp it up to all 6 quickly anyway in any case)
3. Red has experience fighting against opponents that try to target him and having to use his Pokemon to cover himself and fight without just standing in one spot waiting to get hit by Aang, it happens pretty frequently in Pokemon Special

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Lopen
10/04/11 12:43:00 PM
#98:


I don't really see him being good at having his Pokemon block air bending (since it's air, it can come from any direction) or earth bending (the earth below him basically just up and smacks him-- this is pretty much impossible to block by putting a Pokemon in front of it since it can come from any direction)

Guess what I'm saying is the only bending types that are really "direct" and hence easy to block by putting things in between you are fire bending and water bending, which Aang wouldn't be likely to use anyway.

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Pirateking2000
10/04/11 12:44:00 PM
#99:


Another question would be if Aang is smart enough to take out the leader of the group rather than playing around with the pokemon. While Red is more durable than the average human he probably won't be able to take many hits before being killed/knocked out.


Im going to lean that he would be smart enough. Even season 1 Aang who was still inexperienced got Admiral Zhao to destroy his own fleet (still thats different but I do think Aang would be smart enough to go for the guy shouting out orders)

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Pirateking2000
10/04/11 12:46:00 PM
#100:


Also wondering if anyone can recall pokemon with the pokeball. Not saying Aang would do it but just an amusing thought I had. If aang were to take Red's Pokeball (if he were to incapacitate him) could he in theory recall the pokemon attacking him or would that not work somehow?

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XBL GT: Demon Ninja X2
"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama
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