Board 8 > What's with people hating on Waluigi?

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 12:48:00 PM
#51:


We're going to have to agree to disagree here because you say I'm seeing too much, I say you're completely overlooking the entire relationship between Kefka and Celes.

I think it's absolutely nuts to think that anybody has a rivalry to Kefka on par with Celes. Terra was screwed over by Gestahl, Locke joined the Returners to oppose the Empire, not Kefka, Edgar in the same position as Locke, Sabin just joins up because of Edgar, Cyan has huge motive but he resolves his own qualms when he returns to Doma, I could go on but I don't think I have to explain the majority of the cast.

You'd have to completely ignore Celes and Kefka's history to believe she has no more of a rivalry to Kefka than anyone else, or to believe that anyone else even comes close to matching it. Celes, along with Leo, were the two highest-ranking generals of the Empire, right up there with Kefka the right-hand man. Remember the very first scene in the game explaining the history? When you see Gestahl leading the Empire? Right up with him is Kefka, Leo, and Celes. And Kefka kills Leo, leaving just him and Celes left.

Kefka was the first experimental subject to infusing soldiers with Espers to create Magitek Knights, which was the entire reason he became insane in the first place. Leo chose not to be infused with espers, leaving Celes to be the highest-ranking Magitek Knight with Kefka, and unlike Kefka she maintained her sanity.

Celes is the only one with a big connection to Kefka to act as the driving force of her opposition towards him. And Like I said, it matches up perfectly to the layout of WoB vs WoR. WoB is Terra/Gestahl. WoR is Celes/Kefka.

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 12:55:00 PM
#52:


From: GuessMyUserName | #051
You'd have to completely ignore Celes and Kefka's history to believe she has no more of a rivalry to Kefka than anyone else, or to believe that anyone else even comes close to matching it. Celes, along with Leo, were the two highest-ranking generals of the Empire, right up there with Kefka the right-hand man. Remember the very first scene in the game explaining the history? When you see Gestahl leading the Empire? Right up with him is Kefka, Leo, and Celes. And Kefka kills Leo, leaving just him and Celes left.


I don't know why you keep bringing this up as if it makes them rivals. It doesn't. The game gives no importance to this relationship, or at least not enough for it to be a big deal in establishing a rivalry. The scene between Kefka/Celes on the Floating Continent isn't even about that relationship. It's about Celes proving her loyalty to the group (since that had been in question before), not about sticking it to her rival.

I mean, you can make Celes/Kefka a rivalry on the basis of Celes being the protagonist of the WoR and Kefka being the antagonist, which seems to be what you're doing right there at the end, and that's fine, but that doesn't really make it anything special as a rivalry.

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Grand Kirby
10/08/11 12:57:00 PM
#53:




"Everybody cheating but me! WAAAAAA!"

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ZFS
10/08/11 12:58:00 PM
#54:


the icon ownz all posted...
external image


what the

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:00:00 PM
#55:


From: LeonhartFour | Posted: 10/8/2011 3:55:31 PM | #052
I mean, you can make Celes/Kefka a rivalry on the basis of Celes being the protagonist of the WoR and Kefka being the antagonist, which seems to be what you're doing right there at the end, and that's fine, but that doesn't really make it anything special as a rivalry.


.... that's what I'm doing, yes. A backstory gives huge boosts to rivalries. It's your opinion that it's not good, and how you think Terra or anybody else to have anything near that is what I find insane.

You thinking Celes doesn't care to oppose Kefka is something we're clearly going to have to agree to disagree on.

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__Smurf__
10/08/11 1:01:00 PM
#56:


He has to be the laziest most unimaginative character ever. The concept of Wario was clever, repeating the same to fill a slot in spin-off games is not. Hes just an empty shell of an avatar for party games. He's basically as significant as the hat piece in monopoly. And nobody likes the hat piece.

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ZFS
10/08/11 1:02:00 PM
#57:


Celes isn't much of a rival to Kefka, but I'm not going to get involved in this!

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:02:00 PM
#58:


From: GuessMyUserName | #055
A backstory gives huge boosts to rivalries.


It does.

But the game gives no importance to the fact that they're both Imperial Generals, and it doesn't establish a rivalry between them. It's not that I think anybody has anything near what Celes has to Kefka.

It's just that I don't think anybody has that great of a relationship with Kefka, and that's more because of what FFVI does with the ensemble cast. I could always argue that Kefka killing General Leo, who Terra was starting to get close to and lamented his loss, could have cemented a rivalry of sorts between the two, but I don't think the game gives very much importance to that either.

You thinking Celes doesn't care to oppose Kefka is something we're clearly going to have to agree to disagree on.


Except I do think she cares.

I just don't think she cares because there's some sort of personal grudge between the two of them, because the game doesn't establish one.

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Dr_Football
10/08/11 1:08:00 PM
#59:


Waluigi best character ever

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:10:00 PM
#60:


If you want to boil it down to just Terra and Celes then here

Terra has absolutely 0 connection to Kefka, and doesn't choose to fight him until 90% of the game is over, and it's thanks Celes who actually has a connection to Kefka, and it's Celes who is forming a group to fight Kefka.



and damn you for derailing this topic, can you stop -_-

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:12:00 PM
#61:


You could've stopped arguing a long time ago! It's not like anybody's talking about Waluigi anymore anyway!

I don't really care who Kefka's rival is because any rivalry with him isn't very good. Celes may be better, but it's not much better.

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Pokewars
10/08/11 1:14:00 PM
#62:


__Smurf__ posted...
He has to be the laziest most unimaginative character ever. The concept of Wario was clever, repeating the same to fill a slot in spin-off games is not. Hes just an empty shell of an avatar for party games. He's basically as significant as the hat piece in monopoly. And nobody likes the hat piece.

Whoa, what? The Top Hat is awesome!

And so is Waluigi!

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MoogleKupo141
10/08/11 1:15:00 PM
#63:


Top Hat is the best Monopoly piece

I will fight you for the Top Hat.

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:16:00 PM
#64:


The dog is the best Monopoly piece and I won't hear people talking otherwise

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:17:00 PM
#65:


You're the one that started it though!

but yay here's a conclusion

I don't really care who Kefka's rival is because any rivalry with him isn't very good. Celes may be better, but it's not much better.

Not saying Celes vs Kefka is the huge focus on the game, rivalries don't even have to be a big part of a game, I mean Crono doesn't have a real rival and CT's great. Just saying that if you have to pick one character to rival Kefka, it's Celes.

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:19:00 PM
#66:


And I think it doesn't really matter because none of the characters are much better choices than the rest. Terra's just as fine as Celes is.

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:26:00 PM
#67:


From: LeonhartFour | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:19:33 PM | #066
Terra's just as fine as Celes is.


god dammit don't start this up again!

Celes is the best choice. That's it. Period.

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:27:00 PM
#68:


Either way, it's not good.

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:28:00 PM
#69:


It doesn't matter what you think about that! Just if anyone's the rival, it's Celes. That's the argument that you started, so stopppppp.

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:29:00 PM
#70:


Leo is Kefka's best rival tbqhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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TsunamiXXVIII
10/08/11 1:30:00 PM
#71:


LeonhartFour posted...
The dog is the best Monopoly piece and I won't hear people talking otherwise

Only in the standard set. Battleship's where it's at for the expanded set.

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Some_Character
10/08/11 1:32:00 PM
#72:


GuessMyUserName posted...
It doesn't matter what you think about that! Just if anyone's the rival, it's Celes. That's the argument that you started, so stopppppp.

But that's the problem. If the rivalry is no good it has no business in a rivalry contest

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:32:00 PM
#73:


From: Some_Character | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:31:45 PM | #072
GuessMyUserName posted...
It doesn't matter what you think about that! Just if anyone's the rival, it's Celes. That's the argument that you started, so stopppppp.

But that's the problem. If the rivalry is no good it has no businessin a rivalry contest


did you read how this started

it didn't start with me saying Celes/Kefka is a great rivalry


all I said is Terra vs Kefka is not a rivalry at all.


that's it.


Leon brought up Celes

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:33:00 PM
#74:


I brought up Celes because I knew what you were thinking since we've had similar discussions before!

The point was that Kefka doesn't have a great rivalry with anyone.

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Some_Character
10/08/11 1:34:00 PM
#75:


I read it. I'm just saying that it's not the main problem with the entry at all.

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:35:00 PM
#76:


From: LeonhartFour | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:33:50 PM | #074
The point was that Kefka doesn't have a great rivalry with anyone.


The point is that Terra and Kefka are not rivals!

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ZFS
10/08/11 1:37:00 PM
#77:


Neither are Celes and Kefka!

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:37:00 PM
#78:


That was your point.

But I don't see any difference between picking Terra and picking Celes other than "They were both generals in the empire once."

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:38:00 PM
#79:


From: Some_Character | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:34:57 PM | #075
I read it. I'm just saying that it's not the main problem with the entry at all.


I don't know what you're trying to say


but the subject came up like this

Luigi and Waluigi aren't rivals!

Terra/Kefka and Crono/Lavos aren't rival!

WELL CELES ISN'T

rabble rabble rabble rabble

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:39:00 PM
#80:


I'm just saying I know what your point with Terra/Kefka is, and she's as good of a pick as anyone if you just want to go "Protagonist vs. antagonist."

I only picked Celes because you said something silly like "Terra is as much of a rival to Kefka as Mog is."

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:39:00 PM
#81:


From: ZFS | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:37:46 PM | #077
Neither are Celes and Kefka!


Celes and Kefka aren't in the contest!

From: LeonhartFour | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:37:59 PM | #078
But I don't see any difference between picking Terra and picking Celes other than "They were both generals in the empire once."


From: GuessMyUserName | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:10:04 PM | #060
erra has absolutely 0 connection to Kefka, and doesn't choose to fight him until 90% of the game is over, and it's thanks Celes who actually has a connection to Kefka, and it's Celes who is forming a group to fight Kefka.




I swear to god leon you just don't want this to end you bastard

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:40:00 PM
#82:


I'm not the only one who keeps talking, you know!

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Some_Character
10/08/11 1:41:00 PM
#83:


You said "If anyone is to be paired with Kefka it's Celes" but really there shouldn't be an FFVI representative at all.

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Justin_Crossing
10/08/11 1:42:00 PM
#84:


Terra and Kefka are rivals in Dissidia!

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:43:00 PM
#85:


From: LeonhartFour | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:39:15 PM | #080
I'm just saying I know what your point with Terra/Kefka is, and she's as good of a pick as anyone if you just want to go "Protagonist vs. antagonist."

I only picked Celes because you said something silly like "Terra is as much of a rival to Kefka as Mog is."


but Terra isn't a protagonist.

You can call her the main character if you want, I don't care, but that doesn't mean she's a protagonist. Just because one character is a main character and another character is the final boss does not mean they have a protagonist/antagonist relationship. As I said: Crono and Lavos aren't protagonist/antagonist

From: Some_Character | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:41:22 PM | #083
You said "If anyone is to be paired with Kefka it's Celes" but really there shouldn't be an FFVI representative at all.


That wasn't an argument started by me, that was answering Leon's interjection. All I said was Terra and Kefka are in no way rivals.

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:44:00 PM
#86:


From: GuessMyUserName | #085
All I said was Terra and Kefka are in no way rivals.


Actually, if you'd stopped there, I would've been fine.

Then you had to be silly and say Terra has as much of a rivalry with Kefka as Mog does!

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:46:00 PM
#87:


But I would've mentioned Dissidia a long time ago, but GMUN doesn't acknowledge anything that happens in that game.

But that's good enough for Terra/Kefka for me.

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Shoenin_Kakashi
10/08/11 1:46:00 PM
#88:


I thought Terra and Kefka got in due to Dissidia.

Where Kefka basically carried everyone in that game from what I've seen.

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 1:47:00 PM
#89:


From: Shoenin_Kakashi | #088
I thought Terra and Kefka got in due to Dissidia.

Where Kefka basically carried everyone in that game from what I've seen.


They did. We probably wouldn't have gotten anything from FFVI without it.

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:47:00 PM
#90:


From: LeonhartFour | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:44:37 PM | #086
Then you had to be silly and say Terra has as much of a rivalry with Kefka as Mog does!


fine, maybe Mog was a bit of an exaggeration since he's not an actual cast-member, but the point still stands that saying "Terra ends up wanting to oppose Kefka at the end of WoR" is silly because every real character wants to oppose Kefka in some manner.

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GuessMyUserName
10/08/11 1:49:00 PM
#91:


From: LeonhartFour | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:46:21 PM | #087
But I would've mentioned Dissidia a long time ago, but GMUN doesn't acknowledge anything that happens in that game.


of course I don't! It's a bad game with bad gameplay and awful story!

From: LeonhartFour | Posted: 10/8/2011 4:47:30 PM | #089
They did. We probably wouldn't have gotten anything from FFVI without it.


Disagree - If people were voting for Terra/Kefka's characterizations in Dissidia they wouldn't make it!

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Some_Character
10/08/11 1:50:00 PM
#92:


Shoenin_Kakashi posted...
I thought Terra and Kefka got in due to Dissidia.

Where Kefka basically carried everyone in that game from what I've seen.


Exdeath carriers everyone in Dissidia single handedly, with some help from Garland, Golbez and Chaos.

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Shoenin_Kakashi
10/08/11 1:58:00 PM
#93:


There was an easy way to make Dissidia, Just give it to Arc Sys

You don't make it the clunky baby of Budokai and Flash Hiders.

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Some_Character
10/08/11 2:01:00 PM
#94:


I'll just satisfy my Arc Sys needs with Persona 4.

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Shoenin_Kakashi
10/08/11 2:03:00 PM
#95:


See Squeenix, Atlus had the right idea.

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Some_Character
10/08/11 2:04:00 PM
#96:


Atlus almost always has the right idea.

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paperwarior
10/08/11 2:29:00 PM
#97:


Psh, Dissidia is okay. Arc shouldn't waste their time on it and should focus on making X3.

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Wanglicious
10/08/11 2:39:00 PM
#98:


let's go atlus love.
but no atlus rivalries in the contest, so sad.

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LeonhartFour
10/08/11 2:40:00 PM
#99:


From: Wanglicious | #098
but no atlus rivalries in the contest, so sad.


Isn't Catherine an Atlus game?

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Some_Character
10/08/11 2:41:00 PM
#100:


I nominated YHVH vs. Lucifer at least.

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