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EndOfDiscOne 01/25/12 4:41:00 AM #1: |
Could you see him splitting both sides of Congress and effectively destroying the "us vs. them" mentality? Because neither party supports him and maybe he will get the support of those politicians who are disillusioned with their party, thus getting rid of the two sided structure that has ruined American politics.
It's early and I haven't had coffee yet, just throwing ideas out. -- 2011 Board 8 User of the Year http://img.imgcake.com/fitgirljpgta.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 7:37:00 PM #2: |
I could see both parties teaming up against him and overriding his vetos sadly.
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Sceptilesolarbeam 01/25/12 7:39:00 PM #3: |
No.
-- "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick ... Copied to Clipboard!
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PartOfYourWorld 01/25/12 7:41:00 PM #4: |
I don't think he'd get much support at all. I haven't thought much about the actual policies he'd want to implement, but now that I am, they'd piss off a looooot of Americans. Does he even support regulations such as child labor laws and a minimum wage?
-- Yoblazer: http://i33.tinypic.com/ml36gl_th.gif Watch and you'll see... SuperNiceDog own me... in the Guru! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 01/25/12 7:43:00 PM #5: |
From: red sox 777 | #002 Hey, at least they will agree on something, that's an improvement -- _foolmo_ 'Most people at least try to say something funny. See foolmo's post as an example.' - The Real Truth ... Copied to Clipboard!
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edwardsdv 01/25/12 7:44:00 PM #6: |
yeah hed just sit there and do nothing for 4 years since he doesnt believe in a powerful executive and congress would override all of his vetoes.
-- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LordoftheMorons 01/25/12 7:52:00 PM #7: |
PartOfYourWorld posted...
Does he even support regulations such as child labor laws and a minimum wage? Not sure about child labor, but I'm pretty sure he opposes the minimum wage. Because the free market is magic and can't possibly do any wrong. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE ... Copied to Clipboard!
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EndOfDiscOne 01/25/12 7:55:00 PM #8: |
LordoftheMorons posted...
PartOfYourWorld posted... Does he even support regulations such as child labor laws and a minimum wage? Not sure about child labor, but I'm pretty sure he opposes the minimum wage. Because the free market is magic and can't possibly do any wrong. It's pretty easy to see the downside to minimum wage even if you don't agree with it. It will hurt smaller businesses who can't afford to raise expenses. Now whether you care more about the employee or the employer is up to you -- 2011 Board 8 User of the Year http://img.imgcake.com/fitgirljpgta.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/25/12 8:01:00 PM #9: |
It's pretty easy to see the downside to minimum wage even if you don't agree with it. It will hurt smaller businesses who can't afford to raise expenses.
Now whether you care more about the employee or the employer is up to you I'll take "completely and totally missing the point" for two thousand, Alex! The minimum wage ALSO hurts employees as it creates unemployment. Specifically, it hurts the employees at the margin such as the youth, elderly, and discriminated against groups the most. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 8:24:00 PM #10: |
Although, there's a good chance that after 2 years of government by Congress (meaning the president does nothing, vetoes everything, and Congress overrides all the vetoes) the voters vote out members of Congress en masse when Ron Paul gives his support in the midterm elections to either a new party, or to something along the lines of the Tea Party.
-- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 8:26:00 PM #11: |
The minimum wage ALSO hurts employees as it creates unemployment. Specifically, it hurts the employees at the margin such as the youth, elderly, and discriminated against groups the most.
It doesn't hurt the elderly- elderly people generally won't work for minimum wage anyway. It does hurt youth and groups that suffer from discrimination, and surprise surprise, those groups vote the least! -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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pjbasis 01/25/12 8:28:00 PM #12: |
Can't they just impeach him?
I guess they'd have to put someone else up though. How does that work again? -- http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/Rakaputra/pjbasis.png SuperNiceDog - 1, pjbasis - 0 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 8:30:00 PM #13: |
They'd have to find a crime to convict him of. I don't think they would go through with it.
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pjbasis 01/25/12 8:31:00 PM #14: |
I guess it's been a while since I've taken Gov!
-- http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/Rakaputra/pjbasis.png SuperNiceDog - 1, pjbasis - 0 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Uglyface2 01/25/12 8:33:00 PM #15: |
red sox 777 posted...
It doesn't hurt the elderly- elderly people generally won't work for minimum wage anyway. My 70-year-old father works for minimum wage. He retired, then found out his pension wasn't keeping up with expenses. And have you ever seen the morning shift at McDonald's? There are elderly people working there, too, and The House That Ronald Built isn't known for its high wages. Walmart greeters and cashiers... The list goes on. But they do work for minimum wage. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LordoftheMorons 01/25/12 8:41:00 PM #16: |
Yeah I'm sure cutting unemployment by a few percent is worth going to Chinese standards of workers' rights (yes, I realize there are more differences than just a minimum wage, but from what I understand Paul's in favor of cutting all of these regulations).
-- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 8:44:00 PM #17: |
We wouldn't need to cut workers' rights, just wages.
-- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 8:47:00 PM #18: |
I mean, it depends on what you mean by workers' rights. Things like saying the company isn't allowed to lock the workers inside so they can't leave- I don't think anyone opposes that. Things like saying the company has to provide people with healthcare- why is that even related?
-- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LordoftheMorons 01/25/12 8:51:00 PM #19: |
I was thinking of things like having an 8 hour workday instead of "as long as we can make it before people say f*** it I'd rather be unemployed"
-- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 8:59:00 PM #20: |
I was thinking of things like having an 8 hour workday instead of "as long as we can make it before people say f*** it I'd rather be unemployed"
Do we even have those laws on the books anymore? If we do, the DOJ or state attorneys general need to start investigating investment banks for violating those laws. But if we don't: if investment bankers are allowed to work 100 hour weeks if they choose to do so, why not others? I don't think companies are going to be demanding that people work more than 40 hours anyway, because people want higher wages (per hour) to work longer hours. There's a large pool of workers right now, so there's no incentive for companies to ask people to work obscene hours. Incidentally, finance is a very screwed up industry in another way than people normally think. It is the one industry in which large companies exist where the employees do better than the shareholders. Just compare McDonald's and Goldman Sachs- MCD is worth twice what GS is worth! It's a more profitable company. And it's probably because GS's profits are passed out to employees, so the shareholders, the owners of the company, never see most of them. I want to see a candidate use this to attack Wall Street for being closet socialists. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/25/12 9:01:00 PM #21: |
So it's better to have the government set arbitrary standards of how long people "should" work then let all parties negotiate for mutual benefit?
-- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/25/12 9:02:00 PM #22: |
And it's probably because GS's profits are passed out to employees
If you want to get technical about it, employees aren't paid with profits, they are paid with revenues. Salaries are a cost. Profit = revenue - cost. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 01/25/12 9:05:00 PM #23: |
From: LordoftheMorons | #019 Yeah, it's a lot better to enslave your workers by providing overtime pay as the only legitimate way for them to make a living -- _foolmo_ 'To be foolmo'd is to be better opinion'd.' - Blairville ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 9:05:00 PM #24: |
Well, that's true technically, but it works better with the normal situation of the owners hiring employees and paying them. With investment banking, it looks more like the employees are the ones running the company.
-- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/25/12 9:06:00 PM #25: |
From: red sox 777 | #024 Looks like, but isn't. I mean, sure, your average investment banker makes more important and independent decisions than your average fry cook, but it's not like they don't still have bosses who give them orders and such... -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 01/25/12 9:08:00 PM #26: |
From: LordoftheMorons | #016 So what's worse, having Chinese working standards in America, or just having Chinese working standards in China, because that's where all our jobs are right now. -- _foolmo_ 'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/25/12 9:09:00 PM #27: |
Gotta love people who ***** and moan about companies sending jobs overseas, yet every time someone suggests reducing wages or benefits, complains about how awful it would be if we had the same conditions as China.
-- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LordoftheMorons 01/25/12 9:09:00 PM #28: |
SmartMuffin posted...
So it's better to have the government set arbitrary standards of how long people "should" work then let all parties negotiate for mutual benefit? Yes, because the potential employee, who needs a job (and in the case we're talking about probably doesn't have a bunch of other offers sitting on the table), is not on an equal footing with the employer, who can just take someone who is willing to work 12 hours a week. Again, look at China, and tell me you'd honestly prefer that system be implemented in America. Also from what I can tell from a brief search, it looks like overtime in the US requires higher pay per hour than the first 40 hours, which probably keeps it in check, at least for low-skill occupations. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 9:09:00 PM #29: |
Looks like, but isn't. I mean, sure, your average investment banker makes more important and independent decisions than your average fry cook, but it's not like they don't still have bosses who give them orders and such...
Bosses who either do not answer to the shareholders, or are doing a terrible job. These are very smart people who are doing a very good job of creating wealth for their employees at all levels of management. From the CEO down, everyone does well. But not the shareholders. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LordoftheMorons 01/25/12 9:13:00 PM #30: |
SmartMuffin posted...
Gotta love people who ***** and moan about companies sending jobs overseas, yet every time someone suggests reducing wages or benefits, complains about how awful it would be if we had the same conditions as China. I don't recall complaining about outsourcing, and I'd much rather have 10%ish unemployment with decent working conditions than full employment with China-quality working conditions. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE ... Copied to Clipboard!
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gotspork 01/25/12 9:14:00 PM #31: |
SmartMuffin posted...
So it's better to have the government set arbitrary standards of how long people "should" work then let all parties negotiate for mutual benefit? so, you're... pro-union?! -- mreow! spork for president - metroid composite ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 9:14:00 PM #32: |
I don't recall complaining about outsourcing, and I'd much rather have 10%ish unemployment with decent working conditions than full employment with China-quality working conditions.
You probably wouldn't feel this way if you were part of that 10%. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 01/25/12 9:15:00 PM #33: |
From: LordoftheMorons | #028 Overtime is 150% pay, yes. This doesn't matter when you're getting minimum wage, you're still getting **** amounts of pay. Again, look at China, and tell me you'd honestly prefer that system be implemented in America. I don't want that system in America, but it already is implemented in America. You're absolutely right about the employee not being on equal footing with the employer. Do you know why that is? Because the employer has to pay the employee minimum wage and give him all these benefits, etc., when he could just hire some 10 year old girl in China to do it for far less. -- _foolmo_ 'Illegal activities is a slight misnomer, most of it is not related to material that is actually illegal.' - nintendogrl1 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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gotspork 01/25/12 9:16:00 PM #34: |
SmartMuffin posted...
Gotta love people who ***** and moan about companies sending jobs overseas, yet every time someone suggests reducing wages or benefits, complains about how awful it would be if we had the same conditions as China. the solution is to put pressure on china to improve the situation for its workers and perhaps increase penalties on companies that send jobs overseas, not make things crappy enough for our workers to remove the incentive -- mreow! spork for president - metroid composite ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/25/12 9:17:00 PM #35: |
so, you're... pro-union?!
The Austrian position on unions is that they are acceptable as they are voluntary associations; however, the special exemptions they receive from the government are inherently wrong, and that the average person's ignorance of economics prevents them from properly evaluating the union's performance. In other words, I personally oppose unions, but I would not be in favor of some law making them illegal or anything. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 01/25/12 9:17:00 PM #36: |
Fortunately, LordoftheMorons and I are not only both morons, but a part of the academical elite, and we will have no problem getting ridiculously high-paying jobs in America when we graduate.
lol @ the 10%, we are the 1%. -- _foolmo_ 'I love you so much' - SineNomine ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/25/12 9:17:00 PM #37: |
the solution is to put pressure on china to improve the situation for its workers and perhaps increase penalties on companies that send jobs overseas, not make things crappy enough for our workers to remove the incentive
How does that happen without the cost of everything rising dramatically? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LordoftheMorons 01/25/12 9:19:00 PM #38: |
SmartMuffin posted...
the solution is to put pressure on china to improve the situation for its workers and perhaps increase penalties on companies that send jobs overseas, not make things crappy enough for our workers to remove the incentive How does that happen without the cost of everything rising dramatically? Oh no your iPad will cost another $50 whatever will you do -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE ... Copied to Clipboard!
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gotspork 01/25/12 9:19:00 PM #39: |
costs may rise, but we would be keeping wealth from flowing overseas
-- mreow! spork for president - metroid composite ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/25/12 9:23:00 PM #40: |
From: gotspork | #039 What's so special about us that we should have more wealth than the Chinese? Oh no your iPad will cost another $50 whatever will you do Not buy an ipad. Which means apple will sell fewer ipads. Which means apple will hire fewer employees. Which means apple stock will fall and the investors will lose money. Can't you at least TRY to think things through before you say them? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 9:27:00 PM #41: |
Conditions in China are improving remarkably fast. The people are very happy with the economic growth. People understand that they can't turn into a first world country overnight, China doesn't have the wealth to do it. But this is a country that was dirt poor 20 years ago. So we can't pressure China to improve working conditions any faster than it is already doing itself, which is historically fast. And remember the country is still run by the Communist Party, which at least nominally protects workers' rights.
-- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 01/25/12 9:27:00 PM #42: |
From: gotspork | #039 So you want an isolationist economy? That has never worked in the past. -- _foolmo_ 'Illegal activities is a slight misnomer, most of it is not related to material that is actually illegal.' - nintendogrl1 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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gotspork 01/25/12 9:36:00 PM #43: |
I do not want to make it financially viale for china to exploit its workers, and if that means not sharing our wealth with them then I guess that's what I'd be for
-- mreow! spork for president - metroid composite ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/25/12 9:37:00 PM #44: |
From: gotspork | #043 Which would then dramatically lower our standard of living. FAR fewer people would be able to afford Ipads if Apple was forced to pay everyone involved with making them $10 an hour. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 9:40:00 PM #45: |
I don't get it. Do you want workers in China to be better off or worse off? China has a third of the production we have and over four times the population. There is absolutely no way China could give its workers US standards. The wealth just isn't there. If they could, the CCP would have done it long long ago.
-- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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dethfdddddh 01/25/12 9:41:00 PM #46: |
red sox 777 posted...
Conditions in China are improving remarkably fast. The people are very happy with the economic growth. People understand that they can't turn into a first world country overnight, China doesn't have the wealth to do it. But this is a country that was dirt poor 20 years ago. So we can't pressure China to improve working conditions any faster than it is already doing itself, which is historically fast. And remember the country is still run by the Communist Party, which at least nominally protects workers' rights. how are the peasants doing -- Fast Falcon ate my bracket for dinner in the guru contest. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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gotspork 01/25/12 9:42:00 PM #47: |
far fewer people would be able to afford ipods ( and a decent standard of living) if we lowered our pay to china standards as well
at least my way we'd have the moral highground -- mreow! spork for president - metroid composite ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 9:43:00 PM #48: |
how are the peasants doing
About the same, but there are far fewer peasants in the country now. The trend continues to be for more and more peasants to leave their farms. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SmartMuffin 01/25/12 9:45:00 PM #49: |
how are the peasants doing
A lot better than when 50 million of them starved to death under Mao. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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red sox 777 01/25/12 9:47:00 PM #50: |
far fewer people would be able to afford ipods ( and a decent standard of living) if we lowered our pay to china standards as well
Companies can't do that though, because American workers won't work for such low wages. Anybody that is currently making more than minimum wage isn't going to be impacted much, because market forces are already forcing companies to pay that person more than the minimum wage. And you're not going to see to people working for $1/hr, because you can't buy anything in America on that much. People can in China, where things are cheaper. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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