I think a line has been crossed when on-disc DLC gets to the point where the developer intentionally gimps other parts of the game to give "free" stuff later to help bolster their image. When the 12 characters were first found on the disc, I just thought, "well that's lame," but I dealt with it. The other stuff in the game still looked great; the gameplay looked solid, the story mode actually had cutscenes (always a nice bonus in fighting games), and they even included a color editor this time around!
I'm not sure how different this was before. Game developers are always looking for ways to money-grub, whether it's expansion packs for the PC, promo codes, etc. Sometimes they'll just release a lazy product. The counter-balance, of course, is that consumers can simply opt out of a purchase if they feel gimped.
To illustrate my point: Katamari Forever is an example of a bad DLC model, as the game was rushed and incomplete without it. That doesn't mean all on-disc DLC is bad.
It just seems like Capcom is so worried about their public image now that they feel the need to resort hypocritical tactics such as hiding things like colors in the color editor so they can say "HEY WE GAVE YOU FREE STUFF you can't complain about them being on the disc".
Again, painting stuff as "free" when it really isn't is an older-than-dirt sales tactic. I'd be surprised if anyone was buying.
Ultimately though, your point seems less "on-disc DLC is 100% terrible" and more "on-disc DLC can be used as an excuse for lazy development, a shortage of content, and consumer manipulation." All of which, while hardly limited to DLC, is absolutely true. But that's up to the consumer to control, and the entire on-disc DLC model shouldn't be blamed.
-- The Many Forms of Kobe: http://i39.tinypic.com/oqx98z.jpg -- credit to KIRBEH
I am not saying that what Capcom is doing with this is particularly nefarious when compared to other devs out there, just that it is nefarious, period. And as for on-disc DLC, while I am sure there are valid reasons for its implementation, I think the practice just makes it way too easy for developers to progressively push the limits of what's okay and not okay, in the end screwing the customer. I'd prefer not to get into the entire "devs gotta do what they can in this crappy market" argument, and it is what it is, but I just don't think that a business model focused on taking advantage of the people who buy your games earliest (i.e. probably your biggest supporters) is not a healthy business model at all. Be a smart consumer, etc, yeah yeah.
I also guess Capcom's handling of SFxT bothers me more than other games because I fully supported them with SF4, SSF4, and SSF4 AE, and it seemed like they were one of the milder cases of DLC overload. It just comes as a bit of a disappointment.
-- XS2 is the only good Xenosaga game - Lady Ashe http://backloggery.com/cwistofu
There's also the fact that fighting games are a different thing entirely from single player games, and in that consideration, the competitive community certainly becomes a factor.
Let's say you buy a game for $60 and enjoy it a ton. You start going to tournaments and become totally involved. When Capcom releases 12 new characters who are likely going to be tourney legal, you can't really choose not to buy them unless you are willing to just stop playing. There's a bit of a wrinkle there that I don't have the time or energy to get into, but I'd just like to point out that Capcom is also benefiting from that sort of pressure on semi-professional players that need to stay current.
-- XS2 is the only good Xenosaga game - Lady Ashe http://backloggery.com/cwistofu
Let's say you buy a game for $60 and enjoy it a ton. You start going to tournaments and become totally involved. When Capcom releases 12 new characters who are likely going to be tourney legal, you can't really choose not to buy them unless you are willing to just stop playing. There's a bit of a wrinkle there that I don't have the time or energy to get into, but I'd just like to point out that Capcom is also benefiting from that sort of pressure on semi-professional players that need to stay current.
This is minor at best, because people who get seriously involved in anything are going to be willing to spend money to keep updated. This is true in card games, sports (newest gear / clothes / shoes), etc.; why not video games?
And if your point is that on-disc DLC promotes bad market practices... then I can see that. But what would you plan on doing about it? On-disc DLC can be beneficial, and boycotting all on-disc DLC probably won't solve the problem.
-- The Many Forms of Kobe: http://i39.tinypic.com/oqx98z.jpg -- credit to KIRBEH
Could you give any cases where on-disc DLC could be beneficial? Aside from staving off people selling their copies of a game to Gamestop after the first week, I mean. I guess I'm having trouble actually thinking of an instance where it makes sense.
And yeah, boycotting on-disc DLC does nothing but inflate people's sense of doing things on righteous principle, but it doesn't do anything in the grand scheme of things.
That's why I am on a video game message board venting!
-- XS2 is the only good Xenosaga game - Lady Ashe http://backloggery.com/cwistofu
From: Xiahou Shake | #015 I'm doing my part! SFxT actually looks pretty good, but I'm definitely holding out for the super version on this one. Although, if UMvC3 is any indicator, we might have to buy all of these characters anyway even if something like that comes out. >_>
You can do your part by not buying any version of the game period. Maybe Capcom would make OTHER stuff besides barebones fighting games milked with DLC if no one bought them at all.
Could you give any cases where on-disc DLC could be beneficial? Aside from staving off people selling their copies of a game to Gamestop after the first week, I mean. I guess I'm having trouble actually thinking of an instance where it makes sense.
Actually, I really can't think of an instance whee on-disc DLC is better than online DLC. One could argue that, in a given game development cycle, DLC is planned early enough to potentially include it on-disc... but I feel like you're right in that it's sub-optimal. Especially given how people get upset about it!
-- The Many Forms of Kobe: http://i39.tinypic.com/oqx98z.jpg -- credit to KIRBEH
I'm doing my part! SFxT actually looks pretty good, but I'm definitely holding out for the super version on this one.
it's not good
well it's not awful, but you don't really see all the dumb parts of the game until you experience it yourself. if you're sketchy on the game I'd just say skip it.
as far as DLC goes, companies that aren't awful give extra content away for free whenever they can. it's not "we already made this but we'll sell it to you for extra" it's something like "we already made an awesome game and here's some bonus stuff we made in the mean time, no charge."
and by companies that aren't awful I mean Valve
this whole experience has worsened my opinion of Capcom and I won't be buying another game from them on day 1 again. from here on out my relationship is "not worth buying until you convince me otherwise" and that's a direct result of how they've handled content this generation, capped off with SFxT. I suspect I'm not the only one who feels this way and I hope there's a notable impact in their sales and that they understand the correlation.
I'm totally fine with developers selling add-on content. It's nice if it's free, but my opinion if a company isn't going to be worsened because they felt it necessary to make money for their work. This Capcom situation isn't quite the same, but DLC that isn't free is totally fine.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
Man, how can some of you guys be in support of on disc DLC? If I want to access everything that is on my SFxT disc it is going to cost me over $120. That's the cost of two games, how does that make any sense?
Man, how can some of you guys be in support of on disc DLC? If I want to access everything that is on my SFxT disc it is going to cost me over $120. That's the cost of two games, how does that make any sense?
Whether or not on-disc DLC is as good as downloadable DLC is one thing. But what doesn't "make sense" is that if Capcom took that same DLC, kept it off-disc, and released it online, you wouldn't be complaining. Why?
-- The Many Forms of Kobe: http://i39.tinypic.com/oqx98z.jpg -- credit to KIRBEH
Westbrick posted... Man, how can some of you guys be in support of on disc DLC? If I want to access everything that is on my SFxT disc it is going to cost me over $120. That's the cost of two games, how does that make any sense?
Whether or not on-disc DLC is as good as downloadable DLC is one thing. But what doesn't "make sense" is that if Capcom took that same DLC, kept it off-disc, and released it online, you wouldn't be complaining. Why?
I think this argument is pretty flawed because you're basically comparing apples and oranges. It's something along the lines of me asking you, "why the hell did you just punch that guy in the face for no reason?" and you replying with, "if he was trying to kill you, you wouldn't be complaining."
The act of punching someone in the face is the same, but the context is completely different. Same with the DLC here.
The argument that it's the company's right to do whatever they want with their intellectual property is sound. The suggestion that consumers that aren't satisfied are in no way being forced to buy the product is also completely fine. But the argument, "you would have been fine with this DLC if they worked on it later," is completely missing the point.
-- XS2 is the only good Xenosaga game - Lady Ashe http://backloggery.com/cwistofu
the only kind of extra content I'm interested in is expansion packs. I think those are justifiable and usually improve the game. SC and WC3 became much more interesting games with their expansions, and Civ IV went from a decent game to a great one with expansions.
If you want to release extra content for free to improve the game, I'm all for it. Valve does that. If you watch your game perform for a year and see areas it could be improved and come up with a bunch of new content and want to release an expansion pack, I'm all for that too. Blizzard and the Civ guys do that.
I'm not a fan of any other type. This SFxT stuff is especially shady. I would rather pay more upfront and just get everything, really. If SFxT was $80 at launch and had everything on the disc and unlocked, I still would've bought it. I'm guessing they've figured out that they make more money from their DLC model than what I want and that's why they do it, but I don't dig it.
I think this argument is pretty flawed because you're basically comparing apples and oranges. It's something along the lines of me asking you, "why the hell did you just punch that guy in the face for no reason?" and you replying with, "if he was trying to kill you, you wouldn't be complaining."
I know you already admitted this was a flawed analogy, but I have to emphasize it. A better analogy would look something like this:
Say you went to eat in at a McDonald's and ordered a combo meal. The price is four bucks, which is what you expected to pay for a burger and drink; according to the display, the combo also includes large fries. Awesome. When the meal arrives at your table, however, there are no fries to be found. The waiter informs you that while the fries are technically a part of the combo, they are to be purchased separately. You're upset, feeling "entitled" to the fries. If, however, the display hadn't included the fries, but the combo was the same price, then you'd be perfectly satisfied with what you had.
Not a perfect analogy by any stretch, but hopefully it captures the faulty logic at work here.
-- The Many Forms of Kobe: http://i39.tinypic.com/oqx98z.jpg -- credit to KIRBEH
The difference being that the fries in the picture were never actually in front of you.
It's more like if the picture didn't have the fries, and you would have been fine with your combo if it didn't get fries. Except upon getting your food, you see that the guy behind the cashier's desk has just made fresh fries just for you but tells you you can't have them unless you pay more.
Also, this is in some bizarro world where the fries are the main reason you get a combo meal, because that's pretty much what the characters in a fighting game are. They're not just a tiny side-story mission or some extra armor pieces.
EDIT: alright, uh...that might not have made the best sense. But basically it seems to me that you're looking at all DLC content as extra material that never would exist if DLC hadn't become a thing. The problem is that to a great number of people, extra content means it was not prepared beforehand. You suggest that we would have been completely fine with this game if they didn't exist at all. That's true. You press that, therefore, anything more than what we theoretically would have been fine with is thus "extra" content that we should be thankful to be getting at all.
Except clearly, Capcom had enough time to develop these 12 characters entirely and ship them with the rest of my unlocked characters. There's nothing "extra" about them except for the fact that Capcom has arbitrarily decided to lock them out till a later date for cash. That's my point.
Also, possibly a better version of the Mcdonald's analogy (but probably not): In your analogy, the fries would have had to have been made, placed on your tray, and then taken away. You ask why, and the cashier says, "the picture doesn't have fries, you never specifically ordered fries, they aren't your fries." He is technically right, but you still feel like kicking his ass.
-- XS2 is the only good Xenosaga game - Lady Ashe http://backloggery.com/cwistofu
The difference being that the fries in the picture were never actually in front of you.
It's more like if the picture didn't have the fries, and you would have been fine with your combo if it didn't get fries. Except upon getting your food, you see that the guy behind the cashier's desk has just made fresh fries just for you but tells you you can't have them unless you pay more.
This is much better yeah
Also, this is in some bizarro world where the fries are the main reason you get a combo meal, because that's pretty much what the characters in a fighting game are. They're not just a tiny side-story mission or some extra armor pieces.
The main reason you get a combo meal is to get food, much like the main reason you buy a fighting game is for the fighters. You missed out on some food, much like you missed out on some fighters. Analogy holds, checkmate
In seriousness though, the one thing I've learned from this topic is that making analogies at five in the morning is a bad idea. Worse than on-disc DLC, even.
-- The Many Forms of Kobe: http://i39.tinypic.com/oqx98z.jpg -- credit to KIRBEH
It probably wasn't random. Sony likely paid for some sort of exclusive Vita content, which Capcom decided on being extra characters. There's a reason they don't plan to release them sooner than fall.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
That's obvious, but that just means Capcom is double-dipping now. Sony's money, DLC money.
Doesn't really help their image!
From a business standpoint, it's probably the best thing ever, I guess. Now if only Capcom would stop trying to hide the fact that they're dirty dealers.
-- XS2 is the only good Xenosaga game - Lady Ashe http://backloggery.com/cwistofu
I wouldn't get so caught up in how they do PR. Everyone does this, and it's usually easy to see through it. You can't expect them to be like 'yeah, we're gonna charge you for these because we want to make money.' That's not how PR works. The important part is whether you think it's worth $20 for what their asking.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
I just think on disc DLC is annoying because generally it is obviously ready for the game, 100% on the disc and ready to be implemented, entirely worked out before they even start production. It feels entirely like it should be part of the content for the game I buy because they literally had it made, integrated, and on the disc before they even made the exact copy I was going to buy for full price.
In the case of SFxT, I recall it had 40 characters on roster and 12 on disc DLC, who I assume are the ones that cost the $20. They're fully made, on the disc you bought for $60. If you accept them as the full roster size, it's like when you buy the game, only 3/4 of the roster is available.
The last 1/4 of the roster on your disc, you have to buy for an additional 1/3 the full cost of the game. From what I hear, there's even MORE DLC characters that are off disc planned. It just feels like they cut content to juice more money out of consumers and the sheer amount of cash to pay for more characters by the end is crazy.
--
I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
The last 1/4 of the roster on your disc, you have to buy for an additional 1/3 the full cost of the game. From what I hear, there's even MORE DLC characters that are off disc planned. It just feels like they cut content to juice more money out of consumers and the sheer amount of cash to pay for more characters by the end is crazy.
That's what it sort of comes down to: the feeling. Had the DLC not been on-disc, the situation would be identical from a price perspective, but the feeling of unfairness would be gone. See, I find that kind of motivation pretty contradictory, but I might be alone here. Clearly in the minority!
-- The Many Forms of Kobe: http://i39.tinypic.com/oqx98z.jpg -- credit to KIRBEH
Huh? Now why on earth would I want to officially declare that I'm screwing you over? If you like being screwed over then you agree with the prices sooo...
well in the case of "it was already finished but they didn't put it on the disk" the reactions would be identical
if Capcom said "we finished this already but we're holding it back to sell to you later for extra" people would be upset
if Capcom said "it's not finished yet so we're working on it and we'll release it as DLC ASAP" people wouldn't be as upset. of course they'd be lying in that situation, but we wouldn't know. if we found out that they said it wasn't finished and it was and that they were lying, people would be extra upset there too.
whether it's on the disk is trivial. the real issue that people are annoyed about is removing content from the game to sell later, and the lying to cover it because Capcom knew that would not go over well with the community.
From: Westbrick | #077 That's what it sort of comes down to: the feeling. Had the DLC not been on-disc, the situation would be identical from a price perspective, but the feeling of unfairness would be gone. See, I find that kind of motivation pretty contradictory, but I might be alone here. Clearly in the minority!
Good point. As far as gamers are concerned, ignorance is truly bliss.
I'll admit, most of my gripes with on-disc DLC come from the fact that the imaginary wall blocking me from my content is much thinner on disc.
-- I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo [NO BARKLEY NO PEACE]
I usually don't mind on-disc DLC because you can get access to it shortly after the game's release. Normally, I don't care about that at all because there are legitimate reasons to put it on-disc which make things easier for me as a consumer.
Here, we're sitting on this s*** for six months.
-- SuperNiceDog is a vicious breed and should be banned from further Guru contests.
There's reasons why DLC exists on disks, there are reasons why DLC is created and finished along with/right after the game is done. This isn't old news, and it really isn't anything to get excited over.
--
You beat yourself up with your past. Don't blame yourself, blame the world. Blame God. Blame me.
whether it's on the disk is trivial. the real issue that people are annoyed about is removing content from the game to sell later, and the lying to cover it because Capcom knew that would not go over well with the community.
So then what are your thoughts on something like the LotR Special Edition DVDs? Tons of content was left on the cutting room floor, available only months after you pay to see the original film. If we imagined a scenario where the DVD was available much earlier, but the extra content (which had already been filmed, remember) had to be bought months later at an additional price, would it bother you?
-- The Many Forms of Kobe: http://i39.tinypic.com/oqx98z.jpg -- credit to KIRBEH
Westbrick posted... whether it's on the disk is trivial. the real issue that people are annoyed about is removing content from the game to sell later, and the lying to cover it because Capcom knew that would not go over well with the community.
So then what are your thoughts on something like the LotR Special Edition DVDs? Tons of content was left on the cutting room floor, available only months after you pay to see the original film. If we imagined a scenario where the DVD was available much earlier, but the extra content (which had already been filmed, remember) had to be bought months later at an additional price, would it bother you?
There's a difference between cutting content because the movie is too long for a theatrical release and locking content just because.
-- XS2 is the only good Xenosaga game - Lady Ashe http://backloggery.com/cwistofu
Is there? In both cases, it's cut content that you have to pay for later. Again, this sort of boils down to the feeling: having content cut for "artistic vision" or whatever is fine, but having it cut just so save money is not.
-- The Many Forms of Kobe: http://i39.tinypic.com/oqx98z.jpg -- credit to KIRBEH
From: WazzupGenius00 | #083 Here, we're sitting on this s*** for six months.
Just like the UMvC3 alternate costumes, that were all on-disc and accessible via glitch, but were trickled out a few at a time from November through March. And THEN they put out a "Value Pack" that includes ALL of them (which were ALL on the disc to begin with, remember) for half the price of the separate trickle-out releases.
-- SuperNiceDog may be the Guru Champion... But SuperBowlGiants are the NFL Champions!
From: Dauntless Hunter | #093 Just like the UMvC3 alternate costumes, that were all on-disc and accessible via glitch, but were trickled out a few at a time from November through March. And THEN they put out a "Value Pack" that includes ALL of them (which were ALL on the disc to begin with, remember) for half the price of the separate trickle-out releases.
alternate costumes which do not affect gameplay are not even close to comparable to 12 whole new characters.
-- SuperNiceDog is a vicious breed and should be banned from further Guru contests.