Board 8 > "you did WHAT?" -- MAJORA'S MASK part two

(+) Yeah! (+)

Surskit posted...

once you learn the ropes it's very rewarding imo.

well put!
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Honestly, I thought GBT was fairly straightforward, especially compared to the BS that was the water temple.
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I remember back in 2000, the I died against the Great Bay Temple boss after struggling my ass off with that dungeon, and man the teenage nerd rage was flowing through me. I've never enjoyed that place, but I do agree with the general sentiment that the next section is a high point in 3D Zeldas.
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SupremeZero posted...

*blink* You think Woodfall's better than Snowhead?

Is this that uncommon? I messed up a lot with the Goron rolling and ice monsters here that frustrated me, though to its credit Goht's the best dungeon boss of the game.
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Snowhead feels more alive and desperate than Woodfall IMO (and has a more drastic change after the dungeon). Big point in its favor.

Great Bay Temple pissed me off so much as a kid. When I was younger, I got stuck in it so badly that I thought my game was glitched and there was no way for me to proceed. So I started my game over. Got all the way back to that point again and imagine my horror when I was stuck again. I think I got a strategy guide and went through the dungeon step by step after that.


Few years later on a replay I was like, incredibly surprised at how easily I got through the dungeon.
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If I liked dungeon's that were straightforward and easy, then yeah TP and SS have amazing dungeons.
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transcience posted...

I expected this. everyone sees things differently but I certainly didn't expect shooting an ice arrow at an enemy to create a pushable ice block!

It was kind of a cheap shot, but I wonder what you would consider intuitive short of an actual demonstration.
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It took me a while to figure that out, too, IIRC. I don't think I beat a single dungeon on the first cycle my first time through.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

from appreciating it (i.e. letting stockholm syndrome set in)

so this is the real appeal of Zelda huh

no wonder
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pjbasis posted...

It was kind of a cheap shot, but I wonder what you would consider intuitive short of an actual demonstration.

Tatl could've made herself useful for once.

pjbasis posted...

If I liked dungeon's that were straightforward and easy, then yeah TP and SS have amazing dungeons.

yeah it's a large reason why TP is so great
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Great Bay Temple pissed me off so much as a kid. When I was younger, I got stuck in it so badly that I thought my game was glitched and there was no way for me to proceed. So I started my game over. Got all the way back to that point again and imagine my horror when I was stuck again. I think I got a strategy guide and went through the dungeon step by step after that.


Few years later on a replay I was like, incredibly surprised at how easily I got through the dungeon.

I had this same thing with the Bevelle cloister

These things are really not that hard
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LeonhartFour posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

from appreciating it (i.e. letting stockholm syndrome set in)

so this is the real appeal of Zelda huh

no wonder

Gaming was really different for me as a kid versus now. I have very little patience for non-linearity and backtracking and completionism these days, even though I love them in theory. I also dislike dying a lot now. It's plot progression or bust!
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I tolerate it more now than I did as a kid because I can push through my frustration more easily. I didn't beat a single Zelda before the age of 20.

I've still never beaten a Metroid though, so yeah.
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Part of that is probably experience. Once you know the methods of beating a dungeon it becomes easier not to get stuck, I think.
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pjbasis posted...

If I liked dungeon's that were straightforward and easy, then yeah TP and SS have amazing dungeons.

I think like 99% of Zelda dungeons are straightforward and easy. The only one I can think of that was 'hard' was the Water Temple and that one is a special snowflake. Don't think there's a point in making a distinction from one game to the other.

TP does have the best dungeons in the series. Best atmosphere and items.
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2D Zeldas are the only ones with REAL dungeons

3D Zeldas are like fun little strolls through a park
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I don't think the 2D dungeons are like that either. At least from the perspective of LTTP/ALBW which is what I remember the most.

Really, overall Zelda is just not at all difficult series. It's not meant to be. The puzzles are simple and the bosses less fight you and more dance around until they reveal a weak point for your new item to exploit. It's part of the reason why I appreciate Gyorg - he tries to eat your face off pretty blatantly.
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I think there's a pretty clear trend even among 3D Zeldas.

For example I doubt tranny would have any problems with most dungeons in Wind Waker and beyond.
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Majora's dungeons are unique in that your biggest enemy is the clock, not the dungeon.
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These videos do a pretty good job of pointing out how Zelda dungeons vary and you can definitely see that 3D ones are far more guided and straightforward. The one benefit for 3D dungeons is that the solution to an individual room can often be something more unique since there aren't as many limitations, but for the most part 2D does better at presenting the entire dungeon as a puzzle in itself that you must solve.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc38fcMFcV_ul4D6OChdWhsNsYY3NA5B2
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There's no way the Water Temple is harder than the Great Bay Temple. GBT is pretty easily harder than any OoT temple.
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Wind Waker is one of the absolute easiest games I've ever played in my life. Even among other Zelda games it stands out in that category. Aside from that, if later 3D games feel easier it's probably because you've already experienced the formula before and know the tricks of the trade. I don't think OoT/MM are difficult games whatsoever.
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TP dungeons run the gamut from garbage to amazing, and unfortunately, some of the ones at the end are crap. Temple of Time and Palace of Twilight were Wind Waker type of bad, and even the final dungeon was a big disappointment.

It's not a popular opinion but I think SS has the bes dungeon assortment in the series. There are like 3 amazing standouts and none of them are bad.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

It's not a popular opinion but I think SS has the bes dungeon assortment in the series

Other than MM yes
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KamikazePotato posted...

Aside from that, if later 3D games feel easier it's probably because you've already experienced the formula before and know the tricks of the trade.

Nah. I mean this is obviously a factor, but the Oracle games were among the last I played and they still had me actually thinking.

And I think I can tell the difference when something is designed easy and simple and when I'm just good. LBW was easy for me too but it definitely felt like my mind was more engaged with what I was doing. TP and SS in particular only engage me in aesthetics and "taking in" the big 3D space and noticing details which is harder to do right away than a 2D screen.
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foolm0r0n posted...

CaptainOfCrush posted...

It's not a popular opinion but I think SS has the bes dungeon assortment in the series

Other than MM yes

Sandship so good
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I have a vivid memory of getting stuck in GBT as a kid. And Nintendo Power stopped covering the game after the second time. It took me forever to figure out how to use the Ice Arrows to proceed, and that's why I think of the dungeon fondly.

You said it was unintuitive, but it's actually the complete opposite. It's so intuitive that you wouldn't expect it to actually work in a video game (well, at least back then. This was before physics and environmental manipulation puzzles were common). I was so used to Zelda games having puzzles made of simply "Hit this switch", "Light this on fire", "Do this specific thing" that I didn't think that ice could be used like that and I was genuinely impressed when I figured it out.
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Doesn't help that the Ice Arrows were 100% optional (and useless iirc) in OoT <_>

I'm behind a couple 3D zeldas (SS and BotW), but here's a haphazard attempt at ranking 3D dungeons

Stone Tower > Snowhead > Forest (OoT) > Arbiter's Grounds > Forsaken Fortress > Shadow > Spirit > Goron Mines > Wind Temple > Woodfall > Temple of Time (TP) > Dragon Roost > Forest (TP) > Tower of the Gods > City in the Sky > Snowpeak > Fire > Forbidden Woods > Earth Temple > Water > Dodongo's Cavern > Deku Tree > Lakebed > Palace of Twilight > Great Bay > Jabu Jabu

Inside Ganon's Castle > Ganon's Tower > The Moon > Hyrule Castle (TP)
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I couldn't rank all the dungeons like that. A lot of them don't stand out enough to me. General thoughts would be:

1. Forest Temple is probably my single overall favorite
2. TP has the best dungeons overall
3. Wind Waker has the worst

Haven't played Skyward.
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TP's three best dungeons > the rest
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Arbiter's -> Snowpeak -> City in the Sky

would be an amazing stretch of dungeons if the Temple of Time weren't in there to mess things up.
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It's been a long time since I played TP, so that was the fuzziest for me, besides Arbiter's Grounds, City in the Sky, and a couple others.

Some of those midgame Wind Waker ones were hard to remember
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

would be an amazing stretch of dungeons if the Temple of Time weren't in there to mess things up.

Temple of Time is the second most unique dungeon in 3D Zelda (actually the most unique but f*** this i'm a fanboy)
So even if it's not the most enjoyable by any means, it's still should get credit for being clever
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Nanis23 posted...

it's still should get credit for being clever

Why?

There's literally infinite clever ideas for dungeons. They shouldn't have picked a bad one.
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KamikazePotato posted...

I don't think the 2D dungeons are like that either. At least from the perspective of LTTP/ALBW which is what I remember the most.

Really, overall Zelda is just not at all difficult series. It's not meant to be. The puzzles are simple and the bosses less fight you and more dance around until they reveal a weak point for your new item to exploit. It's part of the reason why I appreciate Gyorg - he tries to eat your face off pretty blatantly.

You need to play the NES zeldas.

Zelda 1 is very hard and Zelda 2 is so hard you will cry for mercy. Its probably as hard as the first Metroid.

Metroid is definitely harder. Mostly because of some questionable design choices rather than more difficult design, but still.
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Of the zeldas I played, from hardest to easiest:

Zelda 2 > Zelda 1 > LttP > OoS > OoA > LBW > MC> MM > OoT > TP > WW > LA

Something like that.

Also I started the single player version of FS but it was on an entire different level of easiness than anything in this list so I got bored and dropped it.

I followed a walkthrough for Zelda 1 and found it very manageable (yeah I cheated, but I'm not gonna go through a game like that blind 25 years after its release). The ZeldaDungeon guide walks you through a bunch of optional stuff at the start that makes you completely OP by the time you step in the first dungeon.

I did the same for most of Zelda II and still got my ass kicked. That game doesn't f*** around.

BotW has got to be the hardest Zelda (at least for consoles) since the 80s though.
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Zelda 1 is both the hardest and the easiest in the series. it's the most knowledge heavy game in the series. you can walk into the first dungeon with the white sword and can have the master sword by like level 4.
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Zelda 1 is mostly hard for figuring out what to do, with the occassional "f*** you here's a bunch of knights" rooms for actual difficulty.
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The entire last dungeon is a big "f*** you" as well. Hat's off to the kids who conquered that thing back in 86.
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yeah it's tricky. I might say it's the only really tricky part. well, that and the entrance to level 7. 1988 transience called and told that thing to f*** right off.
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Oh yeah, that last dungeon is pretty bad, in large part for tons of knights rooms if memory serves.

Nothing on Zelda 2's last dungeon though. That s*** is nuts. I definitely didn't beat it without save-state abuse.
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yeah Zelda 2 is wild towards the end
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BotW hardest Zelda

maybe
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BOTW is really easy. Just because you die a lot doesn't mean it's hard.
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maybe if it didn't just restart you 5 seconds where you were before
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I couldn't get past the 1st dungeon in Zelda 2.

Either I suck, or it's just extremely hard, because I've beaten 11 Zelda games as of today.