Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 97: Trump World Tour 2017

(+) Yeah! (+)

A reminder that this is people, liberals, actually trying to have a fair discussion with SephyG, talking to him instead of insulting him all the time, and his reaction is to be obstinate, intentionally say things to make us mad, and basically refuse to actually participate.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Reg posted...

Shaduln posted...

Please don't use the bible as a reason to be an ass.

If I had a dollar for every time I've seen somebody use the bible to push hatred, I'd be really fucking rich

For what it's worth, I really don't hate trans people. I think their plight is being exploited by the Left for political gain when many are in actual need of mental help.

I don't think you hate trans people at all. But I don't think what they need is mental help - they need emotional backup, they need people to stand in their court and fight for them and help them be the best person they can be and love them and support them no matter who they are, and way too many people are not willing to give them that

Honestly, I think if society just left trans people the fuck alone, it wouldn't be taking on such a 'subculture-y' feel to it that I think turns people off - but it's society's fault for pushing them away in the first place instead of not putting so much pressure on people to feel like they have to meet some kind of standard as a man or a woman

Inviso posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

I'm just not convinced that a woman can be a woman if she has a penis.

Why does that really matter though, most of us wear pants

She's the BEST kinda woman if she has MY penis, amirite?! Up top!

Any woman who would have your penis and my penis is awesome. I don;t know that "simulataneous" would be okay with me, but I definitely respect you enough to take "sloppy" seconds or even thirds or fourths.
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BowserCuffs posted...

A reminder that this is people, liberals, actually trying to have a fair discussion with SephyG, talking to him instead of insulting him all the time, and his reaction is to be obstinate, intentionally say things to make us mad, and basically refuse to actually participate.

Minds don't change overnight - I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt of acting in good faith here

Paratroopa1 posted...

BowserCuffs posted...

A reminder that this is people, liberals, actually trying to have a fair discussion with SephyG, talking to him instead of insulting him all the time, and his reaction is to be obstinate, intentionally say things to make us mad, and basically refuse to actually participate.

Minds don't change overnight - I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt of acting in good faith here

Occasionally we do get good faith discussion here. That discussion on healthcare a few months ago will forever be the high point of this topic series.

Excuses to be an asshole is the basis of religion.

Also Ulti still thinks Transgender bathrooms means building a 3rd bathroom. He still actually thinks this.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

I guess time will tell. It's just a shame that the APA has become so politicized that we'll never see what adequate psychiatric treatment will do for these people vs what "societal acceptance" of their potential delusions will bring.

So far nothing but good things?

Like, is there even an example of something bad happening because someone was accepted as trans?

Because I can sure point to voluminous examples of what Seth thinks is proper psychiatric treatment sending people to the grave

How do you think we used to "treat" transgender people before we listened to them?
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

There was a big incident on Survivor this season where a transgender man was forcefully outed as such by another contestant in a desperate effort to get people to turn against him.

This is Zeke Smith
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/05/05/01/3FF4472600000578-4475522-image-m-7_1493943320518.jpg

Ulti believes he should be using women's restroom.

Seph believes he is a woman.

Why so stubborn?

Did Zeke Smith inject herself with hormones and have surgery to look that way?

Does it really matter? As far as I'm concerned "looks like a man" + "refers to self as man" means I really don't have any further questions ("looks like" shouldn't even REALLY be a prerequisite, but it is plenty more confusing so that's fair). And like, there's a really good chance he doesn't have a penis down there. Still a woman just because of that? I don't think calling this guy a woman really even makes sense.

I just don't understand why you even care what bathroom this guy uses.

I use the womens room often enough because I dont feel like waiting in line for the mens room on the odd occasion when that happens. '

Now maybe Im just a renegade badass who doesnt play by the rules but I feel like this is common because bathroom genders are truly arbitrary in most places that arent expecting to serve enormous crowds.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

BowserCuffs posted...

A reminder that this is people, liberals, actually trying to have a fair discussion with SephyG, talking to him instead of insulting him all the time, and his reaction is to be obstinate, intentionally say things to make us mad, and basically refuse to actually participate.

Minds don't change overnight - I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt of acting in good faith here

It's more a message to the people wondering why we don't try to talk reasonably about these sort of things.

Because in order to have a reasonable discussion, you need two reasonable people who can disagree about a reasonable subject in a reasonable manner.

And there's just not enough reason outside of a planned debate between two people who actually respect each other.

Also, SephyG, trans people ARE getting mental help. And that mental help is transitioning.
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Reg posted...

Occasionally we do get good faith discussion here. That discussion on healthcare a few months ago will forever be the high point of this topic series.

Agreed
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Honestly, I think if society just left trans people the f*** alone, it wouldn't be taking on such a 'subculture-y' feel to it that I think turns people off

To be fair, trans people are incredibly litigious and often look for reasons to be insulted so they can sue businesses. That sure is not helping things.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

also because there isn't and never has been exactly one notion of what being "male" or being "female" is. not even biologically!

I am so glad the real world doesn't buy into this junk and mostly just makes fun of it. Imagine actually thinking being a boy or girl isn't defined anywhere.

Is it? I've been biologically male since 1983 and I'd be more entertained by you hopping away on one arm and one leg than you trying to tell me my dick means more to me than my brain.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Because sneeeeeebsnnnnnnnorb flaargflfallllllafffaaaalrd bible

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Eddv posted...

I use the womens room often enough because I dont feel like waiting in line for the mens room on the odd occasion when that happens.

THINK
OF
THE
CHILDREN
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

Honestly, I think if society just left trans people the f*** alone, it wouldn't be taking on such a 'subculture-y' feel to it that I think turns people off

To be fair, trans people are incredibly litigious and often look for reasons to be insulted so they can sue businesses. That sure is not helping things.

Assholes are going to be assholes regardless. Do you actually think that this is only a trans person issue?

MoogleKupo141 posted...

UltimaterializerX posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

UltimaterializerX posted...

Because the bible refers to him that way. If God wanted to be known as an amorphous electron bird creature, I'm sure it would have been written that way instead!

So you understand the concept of referring to an entity by a preferred pronoun, you just refuse to extend the courtesy to human beings.

Swell.

Of course human beings don't deserve the level of respect the lord gets, but nice try with the fake gotcha journalism.

how do you decide what an appropriate level of disrespect for humans is

Jesus gets to have a name, so uh should normal humans not have names because that's the same level of respect as Jesus gets

Hell most humans get to have first, last, and middle names while Jesus gets the short end with just the one name. Also not even half a day after saying "tolerance is a two way street" Ulti is here trying to pound his god down everyones throat. Got to love that.
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Eddv posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

There was a big incident on Survivor this season where a transgender man was forcefully outed as such by another contestant in a desperate effort to get people to turn against him.

This is Zeke Smith
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/05/05/01/3FF4472600000578-4475522-image-m-7_1493943320518.jpg

Ulti believes he should be using women's restroom.

Seph believes he is a woman.

Why so stubborn?

Did Zeke Smith inject herself with hormones and have surgery to look that way?

Does it really matter? As far as I'm concerned "looks like a man" + "refers to self as man" means I really don't have any further questions ("looks like" shouldn't even REALLY be a prerequisite, but it is plenty more confusing so that's fair). And like, there's a really good chance he doesn't have a penis down there. Still a woman just because of that? I don't think calling this guy a woman really even makes sense.

I just don't understand why you even care what bathroom this guy uses.

I use the womens room often enough because I dont feel like waiting in line for the mens room on the odd occasion when that happens. '

Now maybe Im just a renegade badass who doesnt play by the rules but I feel like this is common because bathroom genders are truly arbitrary in most places that arent expecting to serve enormous crowds.

Personally I don't think bathrooms should be segregated to begin with. Think about it like this - A father goes to the store with his 3 year old daughter, and she needs to go to the bathroom but needs help getting on the toilet. His options are to either send her into the women's bathroom by herself, go into the women's bathroom with her and possibly get assaulted by a paranoid woman, or bring her into the men's room which will be awkward for her.
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Jakyl25 posted...

There was a big incident on Survivor this season where a transgender man was forcefully outed as such by another contestant in a desperate effort to get people to turn against him.

This is Zeke Smith
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/05/05/01/3FF4472600000578-4475522-image-m-7_1493943320518.jpg

Ulti believes he should be using women's restroom.

Seph believes he is a woman.

Why so stubborn?

Zeke Smith was my pick to win the season and that was before I knew he was transgender.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

I don't think you hate trans people at all. But I don't think what they need is mental help - they need emotional backup, they need people to stand in their court and fight for them and help them be the best person they can be and love them and support them no matter who they are, and way too many people are not willing to give them that

Honestly, I think if society just left trans people the fuck alone, it wouldn't be taking on such a 'subculture-y' feel to it that I think turns people off - but it's society's fault for pushing them away in the first place instead of not putting so much pressure on people to feel like they have to meet some kind of standard as a man or a woman

A human being makes about 1 billion choices in their lifetime (35,000 daily).

If you're being "held down", it's a statistical guarantee that it's due to a choice you made yourself. You are describing a victim complex, not oppression.

Is it your assertion then that oppression essentially does not exist and has never existed?
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Reg posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

Honestly, I think if society just left trans people the f*** alone, it wouldn't be taking on such a 'subculture-y' feel to it that I think turns people off

To be fair, trans people are incredibly litigious and often look for reasons to be insulted so they can sue businesses. That sure is not helping things.

Assholes are going to be assholes regardless. Do you actually think that this is only a trans person issue?

I would be willing to bet that cisgender straight white people file the majority of lawsuits in this country.

If proven wrong, so be it.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Is it your assertion then that oppression essentially does not exist and has never existed?

Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if this is literally a common belief among Republicans.

Insert Yzma's "You should've thought of that before becoming PEASANTS!"
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

wait a minute

God gets to declare his own gender + We're all made in God's image = ???

God has big swinging balls and they're called the sun and moon, heathen

If god is earth and one of god's testicles is the sun, I can't wait for god to die for whatever did that
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that survivor contestant chose to be named Zeke


that is very confusing to me
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By the way I think it's worth mentioning that I don't think that 'transitioning' is the only road to go down here, that's not the only kind of help that people can need. I know because I've been there - when I was like 14 or 15, kinda hitting puberty, realizing I was gay, I kinda felt like being male wasn't right for me because I couldn't really live up to what society expected of me, and I felt really conflicted because there were aspects of being female that felt 'right' to me - but it turns out I wasn't female at all, just gay, and once I got my head around that and figured out how to express masculinity in my own way, I was 100% cool with being a dude and have been ever since. There have to be other people like me, who feel conflicted about their gender, but don't need to walk down the path of being trans - who just need reassurance that they can fit in as the gender they are now, whether you think that's assigned, or just based on what you've got down there.

For some people it won't work like that. For some people they've always been the other gender, and for some people they really are ready to take that step. (Not every trans person necessarily sees themselves as 'always having been' the other gender! it's not nearly that simple) But for some people, I dunno. I'm really cautionary about this shit with teenagers in particular because man, being a teenager is a fucking turbulent time, a lot of people have a lot of soul-searching to do and it's weird and confusing

MoogleKupo141 posted...

that survivor contestant chose to be named Zeke


that is very confusing to me

this is fair enough tbh
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

There was a big incident on Survivor this season where a transgender man was forcefully outed as such by another contestant in a desperate effort to get people to turn against him.

This is Zeke Smith
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/05/05/01/3FF4472600000578-4475522-image-m-7_1493943320518.jpg

Ulti believes he should be using women's restroom.

Seph believes he is a woman.

Why so stubborn?

Zeke Smith was my pick to win the season and that was before I knew he was transgender.

The hardcore Survivor fan base sadly dug it up on accident and outed him amongst ourselves just by doing research on his life before he played the first time.

It was kept quiet reasonably well though. I don't think most casual fans knew before he was forcefully outed this season
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I mean, was his thought process "no one will ever guess I'm transgender if I name myself Zeke because obviously no one would pick that name for himself. They'll assume it's my birth name."?
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Hey I have an idea... considering my gender perceptions in this topic, are any of you motherfuckers thinking maybe you'd be willing to have a more direct converstaion with me?

ulti?

seph?

anyone?

I forgot how I was willing to give out my number before and no one bit because you're all fucking pussies but this time, I'd do it for real.
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I mean I am more aligned with Sephy here than a lot of other people.

I dont really understand it, I don't think gender can so easily be broken up from biology. (I have always thought the gender=/=sex argument takes the fairly reasonable argument that gender roles are arbitrary and extends it to mean that if youre a male who uses a lot of female gender roles you therefore ARE a woman and should be able to identify as such which is a bridge or three too far for me)

I just don't actually care enough to want to legislate against them or tell them how to live their lives. I mean who does it really hurt for people who want to identify as male but have no male bits to live life as a man. Or to use a restroom where they feel more comfortable. Live and let live and all that

Same reason I oppose sugar taxes meant to curtail soft drinks really. If people really wanna be obese let them. If the tax is a dedicated levy for healthcare for the obese i guess thats fine but those tend to not work out as John Oliver recently showed.

Anyway point is I always like reading these conversations because they do slowly open my mind a bit, even if it still hasnt really changed.
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I won't stand for this Zeke hate.

He is a happy robot dinosaur who never did anything wrong.
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Machete if you're trying to suicide your account just post some porn like a normal human being.
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Machete calm the hell down.
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To think this all started because SephG, of all people, expressed a desire for it to be socially acceptable to laugh at, of all things, a Jon Stewart joke,
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Eddv posted...

I just don't actually care enough to want to legislate against them or tell them how to live their lives. I mean who does it really hurt for people who want to identify as male but have no male bits to live life as a man. Or to use a restroom where they feel more comfortable. Live and let live and all that

this is pretty much what it comes down to. Like even if I AM actually a little uncomfortable with it, that doesn't mean shit in the face of letting people live their lives, and I am increasingly certain that transgender people don't need "mental help", the evidence for that has always seemed lacking to me when I've met so many happy transgender people

Jakyl25 posted...

To think this all started because SephG, of all people, expressed a desire for it to be socially acceptable to laugh at, of all things, a Jon Stewart joke,

This really is the most beautiful part of it somehow

Eddv posted...

(I have always thought the gender=/=sex argument takes the fairly reasonable argument that gender roles are arbitrary and extends it to mean that if youre a male who uses a lot of female gender roles you therefore ARE a woman and should be able to identify as such which is a bridge or three too far for me)

I know you're probably not looking for more discussion of the same topic, but if you have a penis and fit into women's gender roles, that doesn't necessarily mean you're transgender.

Like sexuality, it's not what (or who) you DO, it's how your brain works
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Yeah, I for one definitely fit more into feminine gender roles...but I don't care about that. I have always felt like a man.

Jakyl25 posted...

Eddv posted...

(I have always thought the gender=/=sex argument takes the fairly reasonable argument that gender roles are arbitrary and extends it to mean that if youre a male who uses a lot of female gender roles you therefore ARE a woman and should be able to identify as such which is a bridge or three too far for me)

I know you're probably not looking for more discussion of the same topic, but if you have a penis and fit into women's gender roles, that doesn't necessarily mean you're transgender.

Like sexuality, it's not what (or who) you DO, it's how your brain works

Ok but like.... It just still doesnt make any sense to me. Like what about a brain is inherently female if not for gender roles and biological sex playing a prime factor. Especially if you can somehow divorce it from sexuality which actually either way you cut this there are some really icky sorts of conversations i dont really want to have. Like if youre gay does that mean deep down youre a woman and if not why and what makes the difference. Nebulous brain chemistry science just doesn't do it for me as an explanation-

Like I feel like when a lot of you talk about this stuff that theres just this giant invisible puzzle piece that i simply cannot see.
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So I've always thought about a really tricky hypothetical - what if I was dating a man, but then it turned out they wished to be identified as a woman? Would I have to break up with them? Because like, I'm gay, so wouldn't that mean by still being with them I would be like, disrespecting their gender? Wouldn't I be saying "hey, that's okay, you're still enough of a man for me to be in a relationship with" which, like, seems kind of bad? And if the answer is "well if you love that person then it shouldn't matter" then wait, hang on, why isn't my sexuality being respected here, why does the other person's gender take precedent? I dunno, this is like a REALLY thorny issue for me imo

Paratroopa1 posted...

So I've always thought about a really tricky hypothetical - what if I was dating a man, but then it turned out they wished to be identified as a woman? Would I have to break up with them? Because like, I'm gay, so wouldn't that mean by still being with them I would be like, disrespecting their gender? Wouldn't I be saying "hey, that's okay, you're still enough of a man for me to be in a relationship with" which, like, seems kind of bad? And if the answer is "well if you love that person then it shouldn't matter" then wait, hang on, why isn't my sexuality being respected here, why does the other person's gender take precedent? I dunno, this is like a REALLY thorny issue for me imo

turns out gender and human sexuality are really, really complicated!

who would have thought
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Nebulous brain science can mean you identify as a man or a woman IN A SPECIFIC CULTURE. I get the instinctual "whoa don't give bigots ammo" thing but it's important to keep in mind that genders themselves are merely human constructs, so they already have no ground to stand on.
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Not_an_Owl posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

So I've always thought about a really tricky hypothetical - what if I was dating a man, but then it turned out they wished to be identified as a woman? Would I have to break up with them? Because like, I'm gay, so wouldn't that mean by still being with them I would be like, disrespecting their gender? Wouldn't I be saying "hey, that's okay, you're still enough of a man for me to be in a relationship with" which, like, seems kind of bad? And if the answer is "well if you love that person then it shouldn't matter" then wait, hang on, why isn't my sexuality being respected here, why does the other person's gender take precedent? I dunno, this is like a REALLY thorny issue for me imo

turns out gender and human sexuality are really, really complicated!

who would have thought

Yeah but like both loud voices in this debate (represented by Jakyl and Ulti) act like its so very simple. Even once you dig into the nuance most people still do loke Seph g and just go with their gut.
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Usually I think couples in that situation end up breaking up, which is understandable. But sometimes it works out because one party realizes their sexuality wasn't actually quite as clearly defined as they thought it was.

Yay for being bi and not having to ever worry about it being an issue!
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Paratroopa1 posted...

So I've always thought about a really tricky hypothetical - what if I was dating a man, but then it turned out they wished to be identified as a woman? Would I have to break up with them? Because like, I'm gay, so wouldn't that mean by still being with them I would be like, disrespecting their gender? Wouldn't I be saying "hey, that's okay, you're still enough of a man for me to be in a relationship with" which, like, seems kind of bad? And if the answer is "well if you love that person then it shouldn't matter" then wait, hang on, why isn't my sexuality being respected here, why does the other person's gender take precedent? I dunno, this is like a REALLY thorny issue for me imo

It's just a bunch of labels really. You don't HAVE to do anything and neither does she. That's all personal between you two.
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Kenri posted...

Usually I think couples in that situation end up breaking up, which is understandable. But sometimes it works out because one party realizes their sexuality wasn't actually quite as clearly defined as they thought it was.

Yay for being bi and not having to ever worry about it being an issue!

Yeah and just so I'm clear being flexible on sexuality is TOTALLY fine - I think it's not unlikely in this scenario that I would end up going down this road. But it's still an interesting scenario because being a gay man in a relationship with a trans woman feels like it would somehow not be respecting them, and I personally feel that someone not being okay with the gender change should not be held against them - heterosexuals should have their sexuality respected too, after all

Eddv posted...

Not_an_Owl posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

So I've always thought about a really tricky hypothetical - what if I was dating a man, but then it turned out they wished to be identified as a woman? Would I have to break up with them? Because like, I'm gay, so wouldn't that mean by still being with them I would be like, disrespecting their gender? Wouldn't I be saying "hey, that's okay, you're still enough of a man for me to be in a relationship with" which, like, seems kind of bad? And if the answer is "well if you love that person then it shouldn't matter" then wait, hang on, why isn't my sexuality being respected here, why does the other person's gender take precedent? I dunno, this is like a REALLY thorny issue for me imo

turns out gender and human sexuality are really, really complicated!

who would have thought

Yeah but like both loud voices in this debate (represented by Jakyl and Ulti) act like its so very simple. Even once you dig into the nuance most people still do loke Seph g and just go with their gut.

I was very much dumbing things down to try and get the CONCEPT across.
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Jakyl25 posted...

It's just a bunch of labels really. You don't HAVE to do anything and neither does she. That's all personal between you two.

Is it though? Is being trans "just a label?" That seems a little bit at odds with our whole discussion of gender.

Paratroopa1 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

It's just a bunch of labels really. You don't HAVE to do anything and neither does she. That's all personal between you two.

Is it though? Is being trans "just a label?" That seems a little bit at odds with our whole discussion of gender.

Yeah this is where i get so messed up.

I feel like it cant be this big of a deal and also JUST a label.

Like if this is all crap that doesnt actually matter then why do we even have to talk about it.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Yeah and just so I'm clear being flexible on sexuality is TOTALLY fine - I think it's not unlikely in this scenario that I would end up going down this road. But it's still an interesting scenario because being a gay man in a relationship with a trans woman feels like it would somehow not be respecting them, and I personally feel that someone not being okay with the gender change should not be held against them - heterosexuals should have their sexuality respected too, after all

Yeah I get it. Well I don't GET it because I don't even really understand what only being attracted to one gender is like?? But like I think I understand where you're coming from and why there's a concern there of the relationship not being respectful. And yeah like I said I think it's pretty understandable to break up with someone if you're no longer attracted them, including for reasons of gender.


Eddv posted...

Like if this is all crap that doesnt actually matter then why do we even have to talk about it.

In part, because society has determined that it REALLY REALLY matters even though it's pretty inconsequential if people just aren't dickbags.
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