Board 8 > Whose worldview do you agree with more? Jedi vs. Sith

(+) Yeah! (+)

Vote away.
---

Emperor Palestine
---

"Neither" is definitely an option in the Star Wars universe. It should be included here.
---

Only a Sith deals in absolutes
---

gearofages posted...

"Neither" is definitely an option in the Star Wars universe. It should be included here.

No? Its who do you agree with more
---

Did Anakin or Luke bring balance to the force?
---

SantaRPidgey posted...

gearofages posted...

"Neither" is definitely an option in the Star Wars universe. It should be included here.

No? Its who do you agree with more

I agree with neither of them more. They are both equally dumb.
---

-FFDragon- posted...

Emperor Palestine

---

I'm on Team Kreia.
---

The Jedi are dangerous, especially if they are allowed to expand.

The answer is clearly that they both suck.

This is a question which demands complicated answers and offers none.

You have idealized Jedi and actual Jedi, then you have idealized Sith and actual Sith.

Idealized Jedi: Try to achieve peace through personal sacrifice, for the good of all, finding balance within yourself and helping others to be better. Everyone deserves a second chance, and everyone deserves mercy.

Actual Jedi: Emotions are bad, love is bad, we're all bad, so we have to endure a strict regime of self-discipline. Also, we know better than everyone else.

Idealized Sith: Ambition and being true to yourself are the most important things - break the shackles of dogma and taboo that bind you, use everything you have available to you, become powerful and great, never suppressing yourself for the sake of others' values.

Optional Idealized Sith: Strife and conflict drive us and make us greater. I will either become the villain that the universe strikes down and becomes greater for it, or the villain that makes the universe stronger when it's too weak to.

Actual Sith: You exist to serve my ego, self control is anathema, nothing is sacred except my ego, and nothing you value has value to me. Me me me. All about me. Also I'm a psychopath who thinks kicking puppies, drowning kittens, and burning large amounts of money in front of starving homeless people is fun.
---

Luke

Jedi and Sith are both really dumb. Love is bad vs Kill children.
---

Both suck but if one must be chosen then Sith I guess? They get lightning on top of everything else

There were also instances of Sith that weren't fucking psychopaths and they were pretty alright

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vectivus#Personality_and_traits
---

sith easily
---

jedi seem to reject human nature until they figure out how to accept it, sith accept human nature and are prone to going waaay off the deep end.

sith by definition is the more human option, so that one.
---

Pirateking2000 posted...

Both suck but if one must be chosen then Sith I guess? They get lightning on top of everything else

There were also instances of Sith that weren't fucking psychopaths and they were pretty alright

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vectivus#Personality_and_traits

I dunno, does a Sith who doesn't do anything except develop a power that lets you use an innocent person's life to do anything you want with a projection count as "alright"?

If I had to assign a deadly sin it'd probably be Sloth in this instance.
---

BowserCuffs posted...

Idealized Jedi: Try to achieve peace through personal sacrifice, for the good of all, finding balance within yourself and helping others to be better. Everyone deserves a second chance, and everyone deserves mercy.

Actual Jedi: Emotions are bad, love is bad, we're all bad, so we have to endure a strict regime of self-discipline. Also, we know better than everyone else.

Idealized Sith: Ambition and being true to yourself are the most important things - break the shackles of dogma and taboo that bind you, use everything you have available to you, become powerful and great, never suppressing yourself for the sake of others' values.

Optional Idealized Sith: Strife and conflict drive us and make us greater. I will either become the villain that the universe strikes down and becomes greater for it, or the villain that makes the universe stronger when it's too weak to.

Actual Sith: You exist to serve my ego, self control is anathema, nothing is sacred except my ego, and nothing you value has value to me. Me me me. All about me. Also I'm a psychopath who thinks kicking puppies, drowning kittens, and burning large amounts of money in front of starving homeless people is fun.

This is a good post.

I really, really fucking wish the movies did a better job at portraying the idealized versions of the two sides.
---

CassandraCain posted...

BowserCuffs posted...

Idealized Jedi: Try to achieve peace through personal sacrifice, for the good of all, finding balance within yourself and helping others to be better. Everyone deserves a second chance, and everyone deserves mercy.

Actual Jedi: Emotions are bad, love is bad, we're all bad, so we have to endure a strict regime of self-discipline. Also, we know better than everyone else.

Idealized Sith: Ambition and being true to yourself are the most important things - break the shackles of dogma and taboo that bind you, use everything you have available to you, become powerful and great, never suppressing yourself for the sake of others' values.

Optional Idealized Sith: Strife and conflict drive us and make us greater. I will either become the villain that the universe strikes down and becomes greater for it, or the villain that makes the universe stronger when it's too weak to.

Actual Sith: You exist to serve my ego, self control is anathema, nothing is sacred except my ego, and nothing you value has value to me. Me me me. All about me. Also I'm a psychopath who thinks kicking puppies, drowning kittens, and burning large amounts of money in front of starving homeless people is fun.

This is a good post.

I really, really fucking wish the movies did a better job at portraying the idealized versions of the two sides.

Luke Skywalker is an idealized Jedi, as is Obi Wan (at least in his later years) to be honest.

Idealized Sith don't exist in the movies because Lucas wanted us to see this world completely in black and white, I feel.

Darth Revan is, at least, an idealized Sith from the now iffy-canon KOTOR series, though. Heavy spoilers ahead: The reason she turned to the dark side was to create a source of conflict in the galaxy because she discovered the True Sith, who are a species. So she decided that the galaxy needed something to oppose - a Dark Lord. Either the galaxy would strike her down, and prove themselves strong enough to face the incoming threat... or they would fail, and she would make the galaxy strong under her rule. In-game, Malak pretty much screwed that up due to his short-sightedness and greed for power. Outside of that, Bioware decided to mess with Revan's plotline in TOR and ruin this concept Obsidian had for her. Which was yet another way Obsidian got screwed over despite having done an excellent job with what little time and resources they were given.

Unfortunately, all of the idealized Sith you're going to see are going to be in the EU anyways due to the fact that Lucas isn't as good of a writer/editor as his ex-wife was. Maybe in Episode 8 or 9 though.
---

Can I just be a Hutt crimelord?

Also, to the above poster, you know that canon!Revan is male, right? Meetra Surik/the Jedi Exile is canonically female.

And I would also say Darth Bane is an idealized Sith of the second variety.

MrZAP17 posted...

Can I just be a Hutt crimelord?

You want to be a slug?
---

this reminds me I really need to do a full playthrough of KOTOR at some point. I have started the game multiple times but I always get sidetracked!
---

BowserCuffs posted...

MrZAP17 posted...

Can I just be a Hutt crimelord?

You want to be a slug?

A slug that is surprisingly strong and can live for thousands of years, and with lots of material wealth and power.

MariaTaylor posted...

this reminds me I really need to do a full playthrough of KOTOR at some point. I have started the game multiple times but I always get sidetracked!

I finally managed to sit down and play through the game twice recently.

In fact, I did both playthroughs side-by-side. Light Side 5/15 Scoundrel/Consular. Dark Side 5/15 Scout/Guardian.

It does feel weird how most of the force powers that require a DC check are Dark Side powers, but the Light Side consular is the one that's going to have the highest DC, due to the Circlet of Saresh and the Star Forge Robes (which can only be worn if you're Light Side)

Also, just a word of warning: If you go Consular, don't neglect your Lightsaber fighting skills. The final boss pulls some bullshit that renders pretty much most of your offensive force powers completely useless. Yes, I consider this to be worth warning you about, despite potential spoilers. It's just that much of a dick move.
---

BowserCuffs posted...

Pirateking2000 posted...

Both suck but if one must be chosen then Sith I guess? They get lightning on top of everything else

There were also instances of Sith that weren't fucking psychopaths and they were pretty alright

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vectivus#Personality_and_traits

I dunno, does a Sith who doesn't do anything except develop a power that lets you use an innocent person's life to do anything you want with a projection count as "alright"?

If I had to assign a deadly sin it'd probably be Sloth in this instance.

Meh I was just looking more at what he did in general (Although he did develop a hax tier dark side ability, it seemed like he mainly just did his own thing as a fair business man building up his own wealth and living happily with his friends and family. It wasn't like he enslaved a planet with his dark side ability or whatever. Granted I didn't look too deep into his lore)

I mean obviously the best answers in this thing are either Luke's Jedi Order or "Fuck it I choose Han Solo"

but given the two choices the Sith seem more "human" as someone else mentioned (at least in some respects)

Darth Revan is, at least, an idealized Sith from the now iffy-canon KOTOR series, though. Heavy spoilers ahead: The reason she turned to the dark side was to create a source of conflict in the galaxy because she discovered the True Sith, who are a species. So she decided that the galaxy needed something to oppose - a Dark Lord. Either the galaxy would strike her down, and prove themselves strong enough to face the incoming threat... or they would fail, and she would make the galaxy strong under her rule. In-game, Malak pretty much screwed that up due to his short-sightedness and greed for power. Outside of that, Bioware decided to mess with Revan's plotline in TOR and ruin this concept Obsidian had for her. Which was yet another way Obsidian got screwed over despite having done an excellent job with what little time and resources they were given.

Wasn't Revan a man and the Exile a woman? Also on the mention of TOR weren't there some "good" Sith in it? Dunno about "super good" but that one Sith Commander from the main trailer was alright (until he killed his wife because he saw it as a weakness or something. However in terms of ideals for the Empire he was one of the better ones as he realized that the whole racism and constant Sith betrayal thing was fucking moronic. It sucked that there was no option to join his side). I think there was also someone else on the council that was alright as well but it has been awhile.
---

You all realize the whole "human" thing is kind of silly when we're talking about Star Wars, right?

Pirateking2000 posted...

BowserCuffs posted...

Pirateking2000 posted...

Both suck but if one must be chosen then Sith I guess? They get lightning on top of everything else

There were also instances of Sith that weren't fucking psychopaths and they were pretty alright

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vectivus#Personality_and_traits

I dunno, does a Sith who doesn't do anything except develop a power that lets you use an innocent person's life to do anything you want with a projection count as "alright"?

If I had to assign a deadly sin it'd probably be Sloth in this instance.

Meh I was just looking more at what he did in general (Although he did develop a hax tier dark side ability, it seemed like he mainly just did his own thing as a fair business man building up his own wealth and living happily with his friends and family. It wasn't like he enslaved a planet with his dark side ability or whatever. Granted I didn't look too deep into his lore)

I mean obviously the best answers in this thing are either Luke's Jedi Order or "Fuck it I choose Han Solo"

but given the two choices the Sith seem more "human" as someone else mentioned (at least in some respects)

Darth Revan is, at least, an idealized Sith from the now iffy-canon KOTOR series, though. Heavy spoilers ahead: The reason she turned to the dark side was to create a source of conflict in the galaxy because she discovered the True Sith, who are a species. So she decided that the galaxy needed something to oppose - a Dark Lord. Either the galaxy would strike her down, and prove themselves strong enough to face the incoming threat... or they would fail, and she would make the galaxy strong under her rule. In-game, Malak pretty much screwed that up due to his short-sightedness and greed for power. Outside of that, Bioware decided to mess with Revan's plotline in TOR and ruin this concept Obsidian had for her. Which was yet another way Obsidian got screwed over despite having done an excellent job with what little time and resources they were given.

Wasn't Revan a man and the Exile a woman? Also on the mention of TOR weren't there some "good" Sith in it? Dunno about "super good" but that one Sith Commander from the main trailer was alright (until he killed his wife because he saw it as a weakness or something. However in terms of ideals for the Empire he was one of the better ones as he realized that the whole racism and constant Sith betrayal thing was fucking moronic. It sucked that there was no option to join his side). I think there was also someone else on the council that was alright as well but it has been awhile.

KOTOR2 defaults to Revan being female so that's more or less what I was going with. is an awesome game, especially with the restoration patch.
---

Oh, come now. Surely the canonical gender of a character, one that has been out there for over a decade and has little to no plot relevance, doesn't need spoilers?

Anyway, yeah, IIRC the default genders for Revan and the Exile have been established since at least the New Essential Chronology in 2005. Wookieepedia definitely has Revan as male and the Exile as female.

MrZAP17 posted...

Oh, come now. Surely the canonical gender of a character, one that has been out there for over a decade and has little to no plot relevance, doesn't need spoilers?

Believe it or not, people haven't played the game yet, and I'd like to preserve some things as a surprise for them.

I mean, I never got a chance to experience that. It was spoiled for me long before I actually had a chance to play the game.
---

Yes, but the canonicity of either gender doesn't even come up in the game but in other source materials and doesn't affect the plot in any way, so why is it worth hiding? It's not spoiling anything that has to do with the story, and you could even play both games without it being established.

For reference I originally played both games already knowing the canonical genders and picked my character sex accordingly. It wasn't a big deal.

MrZAP17 posted...

Yes, but the canonicity of either gender doesn't even come up in the game but in other source materials and doesn't affect the plot in any way, so why is it worth hiding? It's not spoiling anything that has to do with the story, and you could even play both games without it being established.

For reference I originally played both games already knowing the canonical genders and picked my character sex accordingly. It wasn't a big deal.

More like the mere fact that Revan's gender can be either one sort of gives away the entire spoiler though.

You... do realize it's not the gender itself I'm trying to hide, but the fact that Revan is the player character, right?
---

BowserCuffs posted...

MrZAP17 posted...

Yes, but the canonicity of either gender doesn't even come up in the game but in other source materials and doesn't affect the plot in any way, so why is it worth hiding? It's not spoiling anything that has to do with the story, and you could even play both games without it being established.

For reference I originally played both games already knowing the canonical genders and picked my character sex accordingly. It wasn't a big deal.

More like the mere fact that Revan's gender can be either one sort of gives away the entire spoiler though.

You... do realize it's not the gender itself I'm trying to hide, but the fact that Revan is the player character, right?

I actually didn't even think of that.

BowserCuffs posted...

Pirateking2000 posted...

BowserCuffs posted...

Pirateking2000 posted...

Both suck but if one must be chosen then Sith I guess? They get lightning on top of everything else

There were also instances of Sith that weren't fucking psychopaths and they were pretty alright

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vectivus#Personality_and_traits

I dunno, does a Sith who doesn't do anything except develop a power that lets you use an innocent person's life to do anything you want with a projection count as "alright"?

If I had to assign a deadly sin it'd probably be Sloth in this instance.

Meh I was just looking more at what he did in general (Although he did develop a hax tier dark side ability, it seemed like he mainly just did his own thing as a fair business man building up his own wealth and living happily with his friends and family. It wasn't like he enslaved a planet with his dark side ability or whatever. Granted I didn't look too deep into his lore)

I mean obviously the best answers in this thing are either Luke's Jedi Order or "Fuck it I choose Han Solo"

but given the two choices the Sith seem more "human" as someone else mentioned (at least in some respects)

Darth Revan is, at least, an idealized Sith from the now iffy-canon KOTOR series, though. Heavy spoilers ahead: The reason she turned to the dark side was to create a source of conflict in the galaxy because she discovered the True Sith, who are a species. So she decided that the galaxy needed something to oppose - a Dark Lord. Either the galaxy would strike her down, and prove themselves strong enough to face the incoming threat... or they would fail, and she would make the galaxy strong under her rule. In-game, Malak pretty much screwed that up due to his short-sightedness and greed for power. Outside of that, Bioware decided to mess with Revan's plotline in TOR and ruin this concept Obsidian had for her. Which was yet another way Obsidian got screwed over despite having done an excellent job with what little time and resources they were given.

Wasn't Revan a man and the Exile a woman? Also on the mention of TOR weren't there some "good" Sith in it? Dunno about "super good" but that one Sith Commander from the main trailer was alright (until he killed his wife because he saw it as a weakness or something. However in terms of ideals for the Empire he was one of the better ones as he realized that the whole racism and constant Sith betrayal thing was fucking moronic. It sucked that there was no option to join his side). I think there was also someone else on the council that was alright as well but it has been awhile.

KOTOR2 defaults to Revan being female so that's more or less what I was going with. is an awesome game, especially with the restoration patch.

In KOTOR2 dialogue options in Kotor 2 at the very start of the game decide whether Revan is male/female and dark side/light side. It also decides which Kotor 1 characters make a cameo, Bastilla, Carth or a combination of both.

malyg posted...

In KOTOR2 dialogue options in Kotor 2 at the very start of the game decide whether Revan is male/female and dark side/light side. It also decides which Kotor 1 characters make a cameo, Bastilla, Carth or a combination of both.

Atton immediately starts using female pronouns for Revan though, that's what I meant.

MrZAP17 posted...

I actually didn't even think of that.

Oh. Well, glad that got cleared up XD
---

From my point of view the Jedi are evil!
---

Sceptilesolar posted...

From my point of view the Jedi are evil!

Came in here to say this.
---

BowserCuffs posted...

MrZAP17 posted...

I actually didn't even think of that.

Oh. Well, glad that got cleared up XD

Yeah, that was shortsighted of me. I guess I've grown so accustomed to thinking about these characters as just "people in Star Wars" more than specifically game characters that it didn't even occur to me.