Poll of the Day > What's a good first gun?

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Kyuubi4269 05/30/17 3:53:12 PM #52:	Cacciato posted... Got it. You're fucking with us. That explains it. Why is it that you only post to whinge? --- RIP_Supa posted... I've seen some stuff <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:880090151] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Cacciato posted...</cite> <quote>Got it. You're fucking with us. That explains it.</quote> Why is it that you only post to whinge?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Smarkil 05/30/17 3:53:54 PM #53:	Kyuubi4269 posted... Smarkil posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... Ya, what's your point? Have you ever even shot a gun? Ya, in fact I was at a car show earlier this month and wrecked a couple targets with a semi-auto. 22lr. I also collect airsoft guns where the mechanics are so close things like leaf springs, hammers and struts are interchangeable with real steel. Dude, no. Airsoft is not the same as a real gun. I'm sorry. It's just not. --- I find myself identifying strongly with Hitler - Blighboy <cite>Smarkil posted [p:880090194] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Smarkil posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote> Ya, what's your point?</quote> Have you ever even shot a gun?</quote> Ya, in fact I was at a car show earlier this month and wrecked a couple targets with a semi-auto. 22lr. I also collect airsoft guns where the mechanics are so close things like leaf springs, hammers and struts are interchangeable with real steel.</quote> Dude, no. Airsoft is not the same as a real gun. I'm sorry. It's just not.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kyuubi4269 05/30/17 3:57:23 PM #54:	Smarkil posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... Smarkil posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... Ya, what's your point? Have you ever even shot a gun? Ya, in fact I was at a car show earlier this month and wrecked a couple targets with a semi-auto. 22lr. I also collect airsoft guns where the mechanics are so close things like leaf springs, hammers and struts are interchangeable with real steel. Dude, no. Airsoft is not the same as a real gun. I'm sorry. It's just not. Didn't say it was, however I do keep up with gun news and tech and plenty of things (like geometry, operation and equipment) cross over. But, you know, do tell me you know everything about guns because you once saw your daddy's shotgun when he was out scaring city folk. --- RIP_Supa posted... I've seen some stuff <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:880090410] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Smarkil posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Smarkil posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote> Ya, what's your point?</quote> Have you ever even shot a gun?</quote> Ya, in fact I was at a car show earlier this month and wrecked a couple targets with a semi-auto. 22lr. I also collect airsoft guns where the mechanics are so close things like leaf springs, hammers and struts are interchangeable with real steel.</quote> Dude, no. Airsoft is not the same as a real gun. I'm sorry. It's just not.</quote> Didn't say it was, however I do keep up with gun news and tech and plenty of things (like geometry, operation and equipment) cross over. But, you know, do tell me you know everything about guns because you once saw your daddy's shotgun when he was out scaring city folk.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
dragon504 05/30/17 3:58:30 PM #55:	Kyuubi4269 posted... ultra magnus13 posted... Read the fbis report on ballistics and wounding effects of handgun ammunition. But the tldr is. Handgun ammunition only wounds via crushing, cutting, or tearing what it directly impacts. To incapacitate effectivly you need to hit the head,cns/spine lungs and heart are good but arnt as sure of incapacitating as effectivly. You want a minimum of 12in penetration in calibrated ballistic gel and a maximum of 18in, 16 being ideal. Good modern 9mm ammuniton will meet the 16in ideal and reiably expand. The fbi found across the board there agents had faster times and better accuracy with 9mm than 40 or 45. You get a VERY marginal increase in wound channel size at the cost of capacity, speed and accuracy. 9mm being lower recoil is the only factor you've presented that remotely matters. You should also note that the FBI also had records of shots to kill in real life cases and found that 45 needed 1-2 shots on average but 9mm averaged 3-4. The only real advantage 9mm has is ammo capacity. My XD holds 13 rounds, which seems like plenty to me, and it's currently loaded with 230gr hollow points. I've seen ballistic gel tests of the ammo I'm using and was quite satisfied with the wound channel they created. 9mm should have more penetrating power as well, which is more dangerous in a home defense situation where you're not the only one home, but I wouldn't say this is a big downside. --- http://myanimelist.net/profile/dragon504 http://followmy.tv/u/dragon504/time_wasted <cite>dragon504 posted [p:880090490] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>ultra magnus13 posted...</cite> <quote>Read the fbis report on ballistics and wounding effects of handgun ammunition. But the tldr is. Handgun ammunition only wounds via crushing, cutting, or tearing what it directly impacts. To incapacitate effectivly you need to hit the head,cns/spine lungs and heart are good but arnt as sure of incapacitating as effectivly. You want a minimum of 12in penetration in calibrated ballistic gel and a maximum of 18in, 16 being ideal. Good modern 9mm ammuniton will meet the 16in ideal and reiably expand. The fbi found across the board there agents had faster times and better accuracy with 9mm than 40 or 45. You get a VERY marginal increase in wound channel size at the cost of capacity, speed and accuracy.</quote> 9mm being lower recoil is the only factor you've presented that remotely matters. You should also note that the FBI also had records of shots to kill in real life cases and found that 45 needed 1-2 shots on average but 9mm averaged 3-4.</quote> The only real advantage 9mm has is ammo capacity. My XD holds 13 rounds, which seems like plenty to me, and it's currently loaded with 230gr hollow points. I've seen ballistic gel tests of the ammo I'm using and was quite satisfied with the wound channel they created. 9mm should have more penetrating power as well, which is more dangerous in a home defense situation where you're not the only one home, but I wouldn't say this is a big downside.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Krazy_Kirby 05/30/17 4:10:29 PM #56:	i think my first gun was the duck hunt gun. --- Kill From The Shadows <cite>Krazy_Kirby posted [p:880091155] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote>i think my first gun was the duck hunt gun.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cacciato 05/30/17 4:11:19 PM #57:	Smarkil posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... Smarkil posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... Ya, what's your point? Have you ever even shot a gun? Ya, in fact I was at a car show earlier this month and wrecked a couple targets with a semi-auto. 22lr. I also collect airsoft guns where the mechanics are so close things like leaf springs, hammers and struts are interchangeable with real steel. Dude, no. Airsoft is not the same as a real gun. I'm sorry. It's just not. You've broken his heart. <cite>Cacciato posted [p:880091204] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Smarkil posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Smarkil posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote> Ya, what's your point?</quote> Have you ever even shot a gun?</quote> Ya, in fact I was at a car show earlier this month and wrecked a couple targets with a semi-auto. 22lr. I also collect airsoft guns where the mechanics are so close things like leaf springs, hammers and struts are interchangeable with real steel.</quote> Dude, no. Airsoft is not the same as a real gun. I'm sorry. It's just not.</quote> You've broken his heart.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
WhiskeyDisk 05/30/17 4:11:32 PM #58:	thecolorgreen posted... Use would be mostly for fun on the range, but also for personal defense if needed. budget $600. Must be a handgun Check out the Steyr in 9mm, .40 Cal if you want something more powerful. Steyr makes fairly inexpensive weapons that are easy to maintain and have a pretty foolproof sighting system. Pretty sure you could find one right in that $600 range that would fit your requirements. If possible, try both but the .40 might be a bit too much fun for a first time shooter but that's a hell of a lot of stopping power. The 9mm would likely be easier to handle. I have the .40 but I got it back when I was 23. Knowing what I know now I would have gone with the 9mm. --- http://i.imgur.com/4fmtLFt.gif http://s1.zetaboards.com/sba/ ~there's always free cheese in a mousetrap. <cite>WhiskeyDisk posted [p:880091213] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>thecolorgreen posted...</cite> <quote>Use would be mostly for fun on the range, but also for personal defense if needed. budget $600. Must be a handgun</quote> Check out the Steyr in 9mm, .40 Cal if you want something more powerful. Steyr makes fairly inexpensive weapons that are easy to maintain and have a pretty foolproof sighting system. Pretty sure you could find one right in that $600 range that would fit your requirements. If possible, try both but the .40 might be a bit too much fun for a first time shooter but that's a hell of a lot of stopping power. The 9mm would likely be easier to handle. I have the .40 but I got it back when I was 23. Knowing what I know now I would have gone with the 9mm.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Smarkil 05/30/17 4:12:13 PM #59:	Kyuubi4269 posted... Didn't say it was, however I do keep up with gun news and tech and plenty of things (like geometry, operation and equipment) cross over. But, you know, do tell me you know everything about guns because you once saw your daddy's shotgun when he was out scaring city folk. http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/548/129/538.jpg --- I find myself identifying strongly with Hitler - Blighboy <cite>Smarkil posted [p:880091258] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote>Didn't say it was, however I do keep up with gun news and tech and plenty of things (like geometry, operation and equipment) cross over. But, you know, do tell me you know everything about guns because you once saw your daddy's shotgun when he was out scaring city folk. </quote> http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/548/129/538.jpg</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
helIy 05/30/17 4:13:16 PM #60:	dragon504 posted... Also, hi point is garbage, don't buy it. no, they just look like garbage mechanically they're very well done --- You're not the one I want in my bed I'm not the song you want in your head <cite>helIy posted [p:880091313] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>dragon504 posted...</cite> <quote> Also, hi point is garbage, don't buy it.</quote> no, they just look like garbage mechanically they're very well done</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
shadowsword87 05/30/17 4:20:21 PM #61:	I find it weird how people are comparing the differences in how deep the bullet penetration is for how different ammo is better. In a life or death situation, you just shoot more bullets until the person stops, the difference between 3 bullets and 5 bullets isn't enough to change anything if you have the drop on them. That's what matters more than anything else. You're buying a gun that you want for fun, go check some guns out, see what feels right, and go from there. If you want big recoil, go with it, who cares? <cite>shadowsword87 posted [p:880091742] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote>I find it weird how people are comparing the differences in how deep the bullet penetration is for how different ammo is better. In a life or death situation, you just shoot more bullets until the person stops, the difference between 3 bullets and 5 bullets isn't enough to change anything if you have the drop on them. That's what matters more than anything else. You're buying a gun that you want for fun, go check some guns out, see what feels right, and go from there. If you want big recoil, go with it, who cares?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kyuubi4269 05/30/17 4:50:18 PM #62:	shadowsword87 posted... I find it weird how people are comparing the differences in how deep the bullet penetration is for how different ammo is better. In a life or death situation, you just shoot more bullets until the person stops, the difference between 3 bullets and 5 bullets isn't enough to change anything if you have the drop on them. That's what matters more than anything else. You're buying a gun that you want for fun, go check some guns out, see what feels right, and go from there. If you want big recoil, go with it, who cares? If you fire 15rds with a 20% hit rate you land 3 shots, if you need 5 then you're dead. A better round demands less accuracy. --- RIP_Supa posted... I've seen some stuff <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:880093624] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>shadowsword87 posted...</cite> <quote>I find it weird how people are comparing the differences in how deep the bullet penetration is for how different ammo is better. In a life or death situation, you just shoot more bullets until the person stops, the difference between 3 bullets and 5 bullets isn't enough to change anything if you have the drop on them. That's what matters more than anything else. You're buying a gun that you want for fun, go check some guns out, see what feels right, and go from there. If you want big recoil, go with it, who cares?</quote> If you fire 15rds with a 20% hit rate you land 3 shots, if you need 5 then you're dead. A better round demands less accuracy.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
shadowsword87 05/30/17 4:52:25 PM #63:	Kyuubi4269 posted... If you fire 15rds with a 20% hit rate you land 3 shots, if you need 5 then you're dead. A better round demands less accuracy. Wtf, it's a body, not a target. You can shoot at a body a lot easier. Also, what the hell are you doing firing at someone 15 yards away in perfectly clear lighting? Human beings don't sit around in fields waiting to shoot each other. <cite>shadowsword87 posted [p:880093758] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote>If you fire 15rds with a 20% hit rate you land 3 shots, if you need 5 then you're dead. A better round demands less accuracy.</quote> Wtf, it's a body, not a target. You can shoot at a body a lot easier. Also, what the hell are you doing firing at someone 15 yards away in perfectly clear lighting? Human beings don't sit around in fields waiting to shoot each other.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
shipwreckers 05/30/17 4:57:35 PM #64:	I use the Springfield XDS 9mm, and my friend uses the XDS 45mm. Both are great weapons. --- Money is overrated... <cite>shipwreckers posted [p:880094074] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote>I use the Springfield XDS 9mm, and my friend uses the XDS 45mm. Both are great weapons.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kyuubi4269 05/30/17 5:04:24 PM #65:	shadowsword87 posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... If you fire 15rds with a 20% hit rate you land 3 shots, if you need 5 then you're dead. A better round demands less accuracy. Wtf, it's a body, not a target. You can shoot at a body a lot easier. Also, what the hell are you doing firing at someone 15 yards away in perfectly clear lighting? Human beings don't sit around in fields waiting to shoot each other. I made no mention to target or environment, wtf are you on about? --- RIP_Supa posted... I've seen some stuff <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:880094468] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>shadowsword87 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote>If you fire 15rds with a 20% hit rate you land 3 shots, if you need 5 then you're dead. A better round demands less accuracy.</quote> Wtf, it's a body, not a target. You can shoot at a body a lot easier. Also, what the hell are you doing firing at someone 15 yards away in perfectly clear lighting? Human beings don't sit around in fields waiting to shoot each other.</quote> I made no mention to target or environment, wtf are you on about?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
shadowsword87 05/30/17 5:09:38 PM #66:	Kyuubi4269 posted... I made no mention to target or environment, wtf are you on about? What situation is this happening in? I am talking about a house invasion, because anything else is dumb to pull a gun. And even then you don't want to immediately start shooting. <cite>shadowsword87 posted [p:880094773] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote>I made no mention to target or environment, wtf are you on about?</quote> What situation is this happening in? I am talking about a house invasion, because anything else is dumb to pull a gun. And even then you don't want to immediately start shooting.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cacciato 05/30/17 5:21:53 PM #67:	shadowsword87 posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... I made no mention to target or environment, wtf are you on about? What situation is this happening in? I am talking about a house invasion,because anything else is dumb to pull a gun. Interesting. <cite>Cacciato posted [p:880095519] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>shadowsword87 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote>I made no mention to target or environment, wtf are you on about?</quote> What situation is this happening in? I am talking about a house invasion,because anything else is dumb to pull a gun.</quote> Interesting.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kyuubi4269 05/30/17 5:31:32 PM #68:	shadowsword87 posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... I made no mention to target or environment, wtf are you on about? What situation is this happening in? I am talking about a house invasion, because anything else is dumb to pull a gun. And even then you don't want to immediately start shooting. In a house invasion your advantage is knowing your environment, presumably darkness and having an ambush. You should be able to land most if not all shots as long as you don't spaz out, and in that scenario having your 1st/2nd shot incapacitate will be more valuable than your 3rd/4th, and you shouldn't need more than 8 in an assumed fairly unbalanced scenario (the capacity of a single stack .45). This is reliant on you not getting scared shitless and overwhelmed with adrenaline, making a gun about as useful as a toaster. --- RIP_Supa posted... I've seen some stuff <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:880096142] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>shadowsword87 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote>I made no mention to target or environment, wtf are you on about?</quote> What situation is this happening in? I am talking about a house invasion, because anything else is dumb to pull a gun. And even then you don't want to immediately start shooting.</quote> In a house invasion your advantage is knowing your environment, presumably darkness and having an ambush. You should be able to land most if not all shots as long as you don't spaz out, and in that scenario having your 1st/2nd shot incapacitate will be more valuable than your 3rd/4th, and you shouldn't need more than 8 in an assumed fairly unbalanced scenario (the capacity of a single stack .45). This is reliant on you not getting scared shitless and overwhelmed with adrenaline, making a gun about as useful as a toaster.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
shadowsword87 05/30/17 5:42:47 PM #69:	Kyuubi4269 posted... shadowsword87 posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... I made no mention to target or environment, wtf are you on about? What situation is this happening in? I am talking about a house invasion, because anything else is dumb to pull a gun. And even then you don't want to immediately start shooting. In a house invasion your advantage is knowing your environment, presumably darkness and having an ambush. You should be able to land most if not all shots as long as you don't spaz out, and in that scenario having your 1st/2nd shot incapacitate will be more valuable than your 3rd/4th, and you shouldn't need more than 8 in an assumed fairly unbalanced scenario (the capacity of a single stack .45). This is reliant on you not getting scared shitless and overwhelmed with adrenaline, making a gun about as useful as a toaster. Then the gun doesn't matter, right? That was my point. <cite>shadowsword87 posted [p:880096855] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>shadowsword87 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote>I made no mention to target or environment, wtf are you on about?</quote> What situation is this happening in? I am talking about a house invasion, because anything else is dumb to pull a gun. And even then you don't want to immediately start shooting.</quote> In a house invasion your advantage is knowing your environment, presumably darkness and having an ambush. You should be able to land most if not all shots as long as you don't spaz out, and in that scenario having your 1st/2nd shot incapacitate will be more valuable than your 3rd/4th, and you shouldn't need more than 8 in an assumed fairly unbalanced scenario (the capacity of a single stack .45). This is reliant on you not getting scared shitless and overwhelmed with adrenaline, making a gun about as useful as a toaster.</quote> Then the gun doesn't matter, right? That was my point.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kevman510 05/30/17 5:58:25 PM #70:	I have a Beretta 92A1 and it's perfect for me. It handles excellently and since I have big hands, I'm able to grip it and maintain control easily. It has a safety and decocker as well as single and double action. It fires +p and +p+ rounds, so it's got killing power. I like it a lot and it's exactly what I wanted. I'm looking to get a .357 revolver next. --- Posted using GameFlux <cite>Kevman510 posted [p:880097867] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote>I have a Beretta 92A1 and it's perfect for me. It handles excellently and since I have big hands, I'm able to grip it and maintain control easily. It has a safety and decocker as well as single and double action. It fires +p and +p+ rounds, so it's got killing power. I like it a lot and it's exactly what I wanted. I'm looking to get a .357 revolver next.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
TheCyborgNinja 05/30/17 6:19:06 PM #71:	Personal defense? Get a shotgun. If somebody wanted to rob me, I'd make sure their chest or head looked like canned dog food. --- "message parlor" ? do you mean the post office ? - SlayerX888 <cite>TheCyborgNinja posted [p:880099116] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote>Personal defense? Get a shotgun. If somebody wanted to rob me, I'd make sure their chest or head looked like canned dog food.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kyuubi4269 05/30/17 6:19:23 PM #72:	shadowsword87 posted... Then the gun doesn't matter, right? That was my point. It does matter though, it's just dependant on preparation. Get training, discard all garbage casul shit trying to compensate for incompetence, use a performance weapon and prepare your house. --- RIP_Supa posted... I've seen some stuff <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:880099135] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>shadowsword87 posted...</cite> <quote>Then the gun doesn't matter, right? That was my point.</quote> It does matter though, it's just dependant on preparation. Get training, discard all garbage casul shit trying to compensate for incompetence, use a performance weapon and prepare your house.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ultra magnus13 05/30/17 6:23:56 PM #73:	dragon504 posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... ultra magnus13 posted... Read the fbis report on ballistics and wounding effects of handgun ammunition. But the tldr is. Handgun ammunition only wounds via crushing, cutting, or tearing what it directly impacts. To incapacitate effectivly you need to hit the head,cns/spine lungs and heart are good but arnt as sure of incapacitating as effectivly. You want a minimum of 12in penetration in calibrated ballistic gel and a maximum of 18in, 16 being ideal. Good modern 9mm ammuniton will meet the 16in ideal and reiably expand. The fbi found across the board there agents had faster times and better accuracy with 9mm than 40 or 45. You get a VERY marginal increase in wound channel size at the cost of capacity, speed and accuracy. 9mm being lower recoil is the only factor you've presented that remotely matters. You should also note that the FBI also had records of shots to kill in real life cases and found that 45 needed 1-2 shots on average but 9mm averaged 3-4. The only real advantage 9mm has is ammo capacity. My XD holds 13 rounds, which seems like plenty to me, and it's currently loaded with 230gr hollow points. I've seen ballistic gel tests of the ammo I'm using and was quite satisfied with the wound channel they created. 9mm should have more penetrating power as well, which is more dangerous in a home defense situation where you're not the only one home, but I wouldn't say this is a big downside. Incorrect. It also has the advantage of almost everyone being able to put more rounds on target, more rapidy, and more accurately in a combat scenario. Bullet weight doesn't matter (other than have enough weight to make penetration.) "Knockdown power" is a myth, "stopping power" is a myth, hydrostatic shock only comes in to play with rifles. The only way a handgun round causes incapacitation is by directly damaging vital organs/cns. 16in of penetration in properly calibrated gel is the ideal depth to reliably reach those organs from less than ideal hits. Both rounds do this. 45 gives you a fraction of an inch more margin for error, but as shown in real world examples even having that fraction, the scored hits are less likely to hit where they are intended. 45 is just as likely to overpenetrate as 9 depending on specific load chosen. If that is your concern though 5.56 is your ideal choice. With correct ammo choice it will less over penetration while still reliably being lethal. --- ?huh?........ it's just a box. <cite>ultra magnus13 posted [p:880099398] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>dragon504 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>ultra magnus13 posted...</cite> <quote>Read the fbis report on ballistics and wounding effects of handgun ammunition. But the tldr is. Handgun ammunition only wounds via crushing, cutting, or tearing what it directly impacts. To incapacitate effectivly you need to hit the head,cns/spine lungs and heart are good but arnt as sure of incapacitating as effectivly. You want a minimum of 12in penetration in calibrated ballistic gel and a maximum of 18in, 16 being ideal. Good modern 9mm ammuniton will meet the 16in ideal and reiably expand. The fbi found across the board there agents had faster times and better accuracy with 9mm than 40 or 45. You get a VERY marginal increase in wound channel size at the cost of capacity, speed and accuracy.</quote> 9mm being lower recoil is the only factor you've presented that remotely matters. You should also note that the FBI also had records of shots to kill in real life cases and found that 45 needed 1-2 shots on average but 9mm averaged 3-4.</quote> The only real advantage 9mm has is ammo capacity. My XD holds 13 rounds, which seems like plenty to me, and it's currently loaded with 230gr hollow points. I've seen ballistic gel tests of the ammo I'm using and was quite satisfied with the wound channel they created. 9mm should have more penetrating power as well, which is more dangerous in a home defense situation where you're not the only one home, but I wouldn't say this is a big downside.</quote> Incorrect. It also has the advantage of almost everyone being able to put more rounds on target, more rapidy, and more accurately in a combat scenario. Bullet weight doesn't matter (other than have enough weight to make penetration.) "Knockdown power" is a myth, "stopping power" is a myth, hydrostatic shock only comes in to play with rifles. The only way a handgun round causes incapacitation is by directly damaging vital organs/cns. 16in of penetration in properly calibrated gel is the ideal depth to reliably reach those organs from less than ideal hits. Both rounds do this. 45 gives you a fraction of an inch more margin for error, but as shown in real world examples even having that fraction, the scored hits are less likely to hit where they are intended. 45 is just as likely to overpenetrate as 9 depending on specific load chosen. If that is your concern though 5.56 is your ideal choice. With correct ammo choice it will less over penetration while still reliably being lethal.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kyuubi4269 05/30/17 6:38:47 PM #74:	ultra magnus13 posted... Bullet weight doesn't matter (other than have enough weight to make penetration.) " Yh, that's why the FN 5-7 did SO well. It's a pistol that can practically hold 30rds per mag, surely everyone and their dog jumped all over that shit! You know, since bullet characteristics don't matter. How about that well known defense caliber the .22lr? They're pea sized! That's why they're so iconic! They penetrate so they're just as good as everything else, right? .45 leaves a good cavity, a hollowpoint absolutely devastates, everything else is for untrained garbage and compensation. --- RIP_Supa posted... I've seen some stuff <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:880100297] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>ultra magnus13 posted...</cite> <quote>Bullet weight doesn't matter (other than have enough weight to make penetration.) "</quote> Yh, that's why the FN 5-7 did SO well. It's a pistol that can practically hold 30rds per mag, surely everyone and their dog jumped all over that shit! You know, since bullet characteristics don't matter. How about that well known defense caliber the .22lr? They're pea sized! That's why they're so iconic! They penetrate so they're just as good as everything else, right? .45 leaves a good cavity, a hollowpoint absolutely devastates, everything else is for untrained garbage and compensation.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ultra magnus13 05/30/17 6:47:30 PM #75:	Kyuubi4269 posted... ultra magnus13 posted... Bullet weight doesn't matter (other than have enough weight to make penetration.) " Yh, that's why the FN 5-7 did SO well. It's a pistol that can practically hold 30rds per mag, surely everyone and their dog jumped all over that shit! You know, since bullet characteristics don't matter. How about that well known defense caliber the .22lr? They're pea sized! That's why they're so iconic! They penetrate so they're just as good as everything else, right? .45 leaves a good cavity, a hollowpoint absolutely devastates, everything else is for untrained garbage and compensation. 5-7 over penetrates soft targets, expensive ammo, difficult to reload, limited platforms and they are expensive. Also it still sells well. 22lr doesn't RELIABLY penetrate to vital organ, especially out of a pistol, remeber when I said weight DID mater for proper penetration? 22lr is to light and will defect off of bones to easily. Being rimfire both feeding and ignition are less reliable than centerfire for self defense. Why don't you go ahead and tell me your favorite 45 auto load, its average penetration depth in calibrated gel, and average expansion? --- ?huh?........ it's just a box. <cite>ultra magnus13 posted [p:880100780] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>ultra magnus13 posted...</cite> <quote>Bullet weight doesn't matter (other than have enough weight to make penetration.) "</quote> Yh, that's why the FN 5-7 did SO well. It's a pistol that can practically hold 30rds per mag, surely everyone and their dog jumped all over that shit! You know, since bullet characteristics don't matter. How about that well known defense caliber the .22lr? They're pea sized! That's why they're so iconic! They penetrate so they're just as good as everything else, right? .45 leaves a good cavity, a hollowpoint absolutely devastates, everything else is for untrained garbage and compensation.</quote> 5-7 over penetrates soft targets, expensive ammo, difficult to reload, limited platforms and they are expensive. Also it still sells well. 22lr doesn't RELIABLY penetrate to vital organ, especially out of a pistol, remeber when I said weight DID mater for proper penetration? 22lr is to light and will defect off of bones to easily. Being rimfire both feeding and ignition are less reliable than centerfire for self defense. Why don't you go ahead and tell me your favorite 45 auto load, its average penetration depth in calibrated gel, and average expansion?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Cacciato 05/30/17 7:01:18 PM #76:	Kyuubi4269 posted... ultra magnus13 posted... Bullet weight doesn't matter (other than have enough weight to make penetration.) " Yh, that's why the FN 5-7 did SO well. It's a pistol that can practically hold 30rds per mag, surely everyone and their dog jumped all over that shit! You know, since bullet characteristics don't matter. How about that well known defense caliber the .22lr? They're pea sized! That's why they're so iconic! They penetrate so they're just as good as everything else, right? .45 leaves a good cavity, a hollowpoint absolutely devastates, everything else is for untrained garbage and compensation. I'm sure that whole 'economy of scale' has nothing to do with something like the 5-7 <cite>Cacciato posted [p:880101621] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>ultra magnus13 posted...</cite> <quote>Bullet weight doesn't matter (other than have enough weight to make penetration.) "</quote> Yh, that's why the FN 5-7 did SO well. It's a pistol that can practically hold 30rds per mag, surely everyone and their dog jumped all over that shit! You know, since bullet characteristics don't matter. How about that well known defense caliber the .22lr? They're pea sized! That's why they're so iconic! They penetrate so they're just as good as everything else, right? .45 leaves a good cavity, a hollowpoint absolutely devastates, everything else is for untrained garbage and compensation.</quote> I'm sure that whole 'economy of scale' has nothing to do with something like the 5-7</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kyuubi4269 05/30/17 7:30:11 PM #77:	Cacciato posted... Kyuubi4269 posted... ultra magnus13 posted... Bullet weight doesn't matter (other than have enough weight to make penetration.) " Yh, that's why the FN 5-7 did SO well. It's a pistol that can practically hold 30rds per mag, surely everyone and their dog jumped all over that shit! You know, since bullet characteristics don't matter. How about that well known defense caliber the .22lr? They're pea sized! That's why they're so iconic! They penetrate so they're just as good as everything else, right? .45 leaves a good cavity, a hollowpoint absolutely devastates, everything else is for untrained garbage and compensation. I'm sure that whole 'economy of scale' has nothing to do with something like the 5-7 If ammo count was all that mattered then demand would've produced economy of scale, but it didn't because it was a novelty that performs subpar without a proper penetrating tip. --- RIP_Supa posted... I've seen some stuff <cite>Kyuubi4269 posted [p:880103401] in What's a g... [t:75398261]...</cite> <quote><cite>Cacciato posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kyuubi4269 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>ultra magnus13 posted...</cite> <quote>Bullet weight doesn't matter (other than have enough weight to make penetration.) "</quote> Yh, that's why the FN 5-7 did SO well. It's a pistol that can practically hold 30rds per mag, surely everyone and their dog jumped all over that shit! You know, since bullet characteristics don't matter. How about that well known defense caliber the .22lr? They're pea sized! That's why they're so iconic! They penetrate so they're just as good as everything else, right? .45 leaves a good cavity, a hollowpoint absolutely devastates, everything else is for untrained garbage and compensation.</quote> I'm sure that whole 'economy of scale' has nothing to do with something like the 5-7</quote> If ammo count was all that mattered then demand would've produced economy of scale, but it didn't because it was a novelty that performs subpar without a proper penetrating tip.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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