Board 8 > What's the bigger game design sin?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Or is it something else?

Unremappable controls in a PC game > Unskippable cutscenes > Unremappable controls in a console game

in terms of bad

I'd say unremappable controls since it more directly impacts gameplay.
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Unmappable controls in a PC game that a controller would be good for is super annoying.

I'm looking at you Shantae!
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Unremappable.

Ahem, Shantae.
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Depends entirely on the cutscene placement and length and how good or bad the standard control scheme is but I generally agree with Para here.
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Not being able to skip cutscenes. Not everyone plays for the story.
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Get a Steam controller so only one of these is an issue!
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It depends how long said cutscenes are
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It also depends on how bad the control scheme might be.

Not all games have cutscenes, all games have controls.

There are many games where I don't care I can't change the controls. I can't think of any game where I wouldn't want the option to skip cutscenes.
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i can work around unremappable controls. for PC it's easier than not too if you just map keys to your controller. it's still annoying but it's a workaround.

unskippable cutscenes on the other hand i have to deal with no matter what.
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No subtitles
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unskippable cutscenes in almost every case
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Cutscenes easily.

Not sure I've ever changed the controls in a game.
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Unremappable controls, if only because there are too many developers who automatically assume you must have a scroll wheel and offer zero alternative to it.
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i hate when PC controls force you to use the arrow keys instead of WASD. it's mostly only flash games that do this, but some indie games are guilty, too.

that said it's still not as bad as unskippable cutscenes, because there are ways around it
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Yea after thinking a bit, un-remapable controls. If I'm playing a game for the first time I'm not gonna skip cutscenes anyway so that really only affects me if it's a game I play multiple times. Whereas, like people said especially on PC, un-remapable controls affects you every time.
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Nanis23 posted...

No subtitles

And this would be above both for me prob
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Unskippable cutscenes easily. The controls are a part of the game, don't like them? deal with it.
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Oxbridge posted...

Unskippable cutscenes easily. The controls are a part of the game, don't like them? deal with it.

You literally just made a point for unskippable cutscenes too
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Unskippable cutscenes are most annoying when you die and have to watch them again.
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Cutscenes between these two since I don't think I have ever remapped controls. Inability to save virtually whenever would be my #1 because I save a ton and it being restricted is annoying to me

I've only changed controls in a handful of games, but I've seen way too many cutscenes that I would prefer to have skipped.
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Xuxon posted...

i hate when PC controls force you to use the arrow keys instead of WASD. it's mostly only flash games that do this, but some indie games are guilty, too.

that said it's still not as bad as unskippable cutscenes, because there are ways around it

I hate when PC controls force you to use WASD instead of the arrow keys
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I might be the only person left who still uses arrow keys for movement in FPS games
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On the whole I've been annoyed with unskippable cutscenes more (because in most games the default controls are fine, whereas scene-skipping is always a nice option for replays at worst) but for those rare games when I really want to remap the controls and can't that's even worse.

Also agreed with Para about unremappable controls being worse on the PC. I really do not like the mouse for control in most games and I tend to drop games very quickly if they won't let me use a keyboard or controller instead.
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th3l3fty posted...

I hate when PC controls force you to use WASD instead of the arrow keys

Heh, you know your old school when...

You still playing games that jump with control and shoot with alt, lefty?
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I don't often need to remap controls.

I often need to skip cutscenes.
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Snake5555555555 posted...

I'd say unremappable controls since it more directly impacts gameplay.

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Unskipabble Cut scenes! Urgggh! Especially those which are REPETITIVE in nature!
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I mean I still shoot with mouseclick

just arrow keys for movement, right ctrl for jump, spacebar for reload, right shift for run/walk/whatever movement gimmick the game has, etc
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azuarc posted...

th3l3fty posted...

I hate when PC controls force you to use WASD instead of the arrow keys

Heh, you know your old school when...

You still playing games that jump with control and shoot with alt, lefty?

what's a shoot?
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Unskippable cutscenes is worse. After years of playing video games, I'm sure everyone here can use most games' controls after getting used to it.
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What's the big deal with unskippable cutscenes? Go grab a snack or take a leak. Everyone has a smartphone these days, just do something on it while you wait.

Not being able to change the controls can ruin a game. Unskippable cutscenes are at worst a minor inconvenience
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MZero11 posted...

What's the big deal with unskippable cutscenes? Go grab a snack or take a leak. Everyone has a smartphone these days, just do something on it while you wait.

You never played Kingdom Hearts 1, did you?

Also, grabbing a snack and taking a leak can result in dying, forcing you to watch the cutscene yet again.

MZero11 posted...

Not being able to change the controls can ruin a game.

Only if you're more talk than show.
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BowserCuffs posted...

You never played Kingdom Hearts 1, did you?

Also, grabbing a snack and taking a leak can result in dying, forcing you to watch the cutscene yet again.

I haven't, but FFX is my favorite game, and also my most replayed game and cutscenes can't be skipped. Not a big deal!

Well you should know what comes after the scene and how long it is, otherwise it shouldn't be skipped anyway! Still, unless you're extremely impatient I don't see how it's a big deal. Not ideal of course, but hardly worth getting upset about.

BowserCuffs posted...

Only if you're more talk than show.

what does this even mean >_>
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MZero11 posted...

what does this even mean >_>

It means you're not good at vidja games if you can't adapt to different control schemes :P
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BowserCuffs posted...

MZero11 posted...

what does this even mean >_>

It means you're not good at vidja games if you can't adapt to different control schemes :P

IMO button remapping is just a quality of life thing. Some games, such as fighting games, REQUIRE button mapping. Like, if Soul Calibur or Smash forced me to play with their default control schemes, I wouldn't enjoy the games as much because I use different control schemes that dramatically increase my ability in those games. Other games still benefit from it of course.

And there's a few people out there that love to play games but have physical conditions, and they heavily benefit from button remapping. This one CoD player on youtube plays with only his face because he's quadriplegic, and he had a petition for a while to get button mapping into Call of Duty:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0QXgEEyRRk

And, of course, some games have awful, awful initial control schemes and it'd help everyone to be able to fix it. I can remember I hated the control scheme on Resistance: Fall of Man and the game had button remapping, so I moved some things around and the game got way better.

Not including it isn't the worst thing you can do with gaming, but if there's no reason to disallow it then why not? It's not a matter of "git gud". It's a matter of "help out the gamers by making it more accessible".
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Honestly, unskippable cutscenes isn't even a game design issue. There's only three cases that I can think of you should want to skip cutscenes:
1) The game's cutscenes suck.
2) You are speedrunning.
3) You've played the game before.

The first option isn't a flaw in the game design, it's a flaw with the story. If the game is a good game with a good story, you shouldn't skip cutscenes because hopefully you're trying to play the game and enjoy what it's trying to give you.

The second option, I assume speedrunners would just add in the cutscenes to their total time. And if a game has a whole lot of unskippable cutscenes, I wouldn't imagine people would want to speedrun it in the first place. But I can see how that may be frustrating to speedrunners.

The third option, I totally understand. I think all games should allow skipping cutscenes at least past the first playthrough. The first playthrough though, hopefully you wouldn't skip the cutscenes so you can enjoy the story unless the game's story sucks, and in that case the game's biggest issue isn't that you can't skip the cutscenes, it's that the story sucks.

So that's why I would consider no button remapping to be worse than no cutscene skipping.
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I mean, if we're going to be bringing up disability, then yes, button remapping is vitally important.

And from that perspective, I agree that that's the bigger game design sin.

But from the perspective of an average player whose disabilities don't prevent them playing with the control schemes in question, it can come across as a little whiny. Learning how to use different control schemes is a pretty useful skill for a player, and being unable to remap controls should be little more than a bother, one that should pass within a few hours of playing the game in question.
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Solioxrz362 posted...

1) The game's cutscenes suck.
2) You are speedrunning.
3) You've played the game before.

4) Long cutscene before hard boss fight you die to a lot. I'm looking at you, every single PS2 game.

Now, if someone told me that they didn't like Divekick's standard control's, I'd say shut the hell up and just enjoy the damn game, there's literally like two buttons, as long as they're not on L3 and R3 or Select and Start then it's fine.

But if someone complains about not enjoying Melee as much as Smash 4 because they can't turn off Tap Jump and the C-stick is locked to what it is, then I understand that much more. That's hardly whiny to me. Some of those controls are pretty important when trying to play competitively.
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Skyridge87 posted...

Solioxrz362 posted...

1) The game's cutscenes suck.
2) You are speedrunning.
3) You've played the game before.

4) Long cutscene before hard boss fight you die to a lot. I'm looking at you, every single PS2 game.

Now yeah, if there's an unskippable cutscene that the game decided to checkpoint you at right before a hard boss, then fuck that game. That is awful. Unskippable cutscenes in general aren't necessarily the devil, but in that certain situation they are. Who the hell decided to place that long cutscene there? Why not have the player save before that boss and then checkpoint as the boss starts, so even if they lose and need to backtrack to before the fight they can just reload the save, but they still respawn at the start of the fight when they die?

Absolutely that is a game design sin and should never be in any game.
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Having played through 7th Stand User I can only answer unskippable cutscenes. It doesn't help that you have to keep hitting a button to advance the text.
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Solioxrz362 posted...

Skyridge87 posted...

Solioxrz362 posted...

1) The game's cutscenes suck.
2) You are speedrunning.
3) You've played the game before.

4) Long cutscene before hard boss fight you die to a lot. I'm looking at you, every single PS2 game.

Now yeah, if there's an unskippable cutscene that the game decided to checkpoint you at right before a hard boss, then fuck that game. That is awful. Unskippable cutscenes in general aren't necessarily the devil, but in that certain situation they are. Who the hell decided to place that long cutscene there? Why not have the player save before that boss and then checkpoint as the boss starts, so even if they lose and need to backtrack to before the fight they can just reload the save, but they still respawn at the start of the fight when they die?

Absolutely that is a game design sin and should never be in any game.

And that's what most of us who are voting for unskippable cutscenes are complaining about.

And the rest of us are voting for games with high replay value except for cutscenes that drag on longer than they should (it's especially bad if some cutscenes are skippable but not others. KOTOR, I'm looking at you, "can't skip this line of gibberish dialogue because the character involved happens to be moving from Point A to Point B, and won't let me skip even after he finished moving because it's waiting for the voice clip to finish, and the voice clip is literally recycled alien gibberish that goes on for far far far too long")

And some of us are voting for it based on both.
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Understood.

I'm just saying that complaining about no button remapping is hardly a "git gud" thing.
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As a console gamer I've rarely felt the need to remap a controller.
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