Board 8 > Mercenaries Draft Week 10 Wartime: Falling Into Infinity

(+) Yeah! (+)

Done.

Roster: KOS-MOS, Wrex, The One True Dante, Bass.EXE, Liquid Snake, Yu Narukami, Kirby
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I'm hitting the hay though

Chess topic can go up if Scare and JC are going to be night owls
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Dracula, Drown in Your Ideals And Die! (This triggers Crono)
Buruma Power!
Cloud wields the Star Dragon Sword
Custom Combos
Terry Bogard preselects and double targets God Killer to KO Kuja and Dante.
Terry also asks Sora and Dracula ARE YOU OKAY?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AfTGOdeDDg

I am the bone of my sword
Steel is my body and fire is my blood
I have created over a thousand blades
Unknown to Death,
Nor known to Life.
Have withstood pain to create many weapons
Yet, those hands will never hold anything
So as I pray,

Unlimited Blade Works.

(Waiting to done in case of any Alice shenanigans, but I'm likely finished.)
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colored version


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Tirofog posted...

Terry Bogard preselects and double targets God Killer to KO Kuja and Dante.

Man, the testosterone flow from winning Sexiest Merc again is outrageous.
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Okay I'm dumb where does lightning have Terry abilities!?!?!?
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Terra on Tiro's team is replaced with Terry Bogard btw

What a difference one letter makes huh

Oh

Nice
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Excuse me I am a bit, how to say, unfamiliar with all of Mewtwo's fun. Could I please get a summary of what he has done and its real world impact?
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I believe that Bayo, Vergil, Selvaria and Luca are dead. Dizzy is a PS, Haseo is sleeping and Raiden has let it rip. Think a lot of the bold was just about if Session Skills failed or not.

You're probably best off waiting for Kanz to give an official summary though.
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I think Vergil got saved but is now on the other team and is kefka's assist for the week.
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here's what I got

Haseo is asleep for 30 seconds (pre-battle)
Vergil, Bayonetta, Selvaria, and Luca are all KOed (Vergil/Bayo/Luca are also injured)
Dizzy is now a pure support, per Morrigan Aensland's ability (pick someone to link her to)
Ripper Raiden
Id used "Are you strong?" on Neptune
Turok uses Energy Totem

(Kefka used the Slave Crown to make Grigori possess Vergil. Then Luca killed Vergil/Bayonetta. Then Selvaria was mad that her lord died and killed herself and Luca.)

also most of that didn't go on recharge because Ellie is broken
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Vergil was killed using Luca's DIE PIG ability
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I thought it was Grigori's ability that possessed but yeah whatever

Also ellie is boosted by Phoenix Wright's trigger passive it's normally not that busted !!!
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If Dizzy KOs someone does her attached merc get a 50% bonus for being the first to KO someone from Smirk?
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imo it should

glossary says "If a PS uses an ability, for purposes of ability interactions it is considered to be used by the attached merc"
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And if I possess a merc from the other team with Talk can I attach Dizzy to them?
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Keep in mind if Dizzy as a PS uses her kidnap ability it'll KO or Kidnap her linked merc I believe
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yeah I am parsing through information right now.
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FREEZE!

Alice activates Scion of Balance for Kain in response to those god killings. Maximum upkeep for the day's battle is set to 7.
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Classic Tiro blunder as KOing Kain would've prevented Scion from going off due to his Passive being off while dead. Kain's a better target than Kuja too just on a combat approach but what can you do.
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At least I think. I'm not actually sure how Alice's ability is supposed to work with regards to ability timing.
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Lopen posted...

Classic Tiro blunder as KOing Kain would've prevented Scion from going off due to his Passive being off while dead. Kain's a better target than Kuja too just on a combat approach but what can you do.

Which is why now we have Immovable Force vs Unstoppable Object. Kain says if your roster's illegal you get kicked out and your ability cancelled. Archer says him and his master cannot be affected by any abilities whatsoever (key: affected, NOT targeted. Something that doesn't target is thus still covered). So if an illegal roster of Archer + Cloud is sent in, who wins?
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It definitely is interesting. I'll keep my thoughts on it to myself but I can see either way making sense.
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I feel like we established forever ago that tinkering with match stipulations ala Kain =/= affecting the mercs fighting, but I can't go hunting for it as I am on a phone 8n sunny Italy, 'so'
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Lopen posted...

It definitely is interesting. I'll keep my thoughts on it to myself but I can see either way making sense.

WE HAVE COME TO TERMS already actually

Our joint decision was that true fairness dictates this match no-contests, because neither ability could resolve. But since we can't do a no-contest, Archer wins, because his wording is stronger. The reasoning is thus:

A) Archer makes it so only he and his master can be rostered (this incidentally prevents Terry from being rostered, I'm making the note here).

B) Kain makes it so illegal rosters incur punishments. He sets the legal upkeep max at 7.

C) Tiro can submit an illegal roster with no immediate ill effect. DC can explicitly field his entire team because Archer removes limitations from HIS side. (The fact he doesn't from his own is pure slop - it means you could technically perform a self-ownage by UBWing in lowbie, as Archer would take up all the roster slots and leave none for his master, thus submitting an illegal roster that would end with his master being rostered solo.)

D) When rosters are processed, Kain notices the illegal roster and tries to kick out Archer and Cloud, which would then as a side effect null their abilities. However, because Archer and Cloud explicitly cannot be affected by any abilities aside from UBW, Kain can't kick them out. Thus we get DC's team vs Archer and Cloud.

Is this a clusterfuck? Yes. Are there arguments for the other side? Yes. Does it make me unhappy to have to make this call, even if it was a joint one? Yes. But it feels like this makes more sense. If I had my way, I would absolutely push for the no-contest, but implementing such a massive rule change midway through the playoffs is out of the question. I'll think about it for a future iteration of mercs.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Archer wins, because his wording is stronger.

for what it's worth, this was my gut reaction too (though I could see it either way)
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I feel like getting kicked because of an illegal roster is an effect of game mechanics and not an ability though.

But lol someone's getting screwed regardless.
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-FFDragon- posted...

I feel like getting kicked because of an illegal roster is an effect of game mechanics and not an ability though.

But lol someone's getting screwed regardless.

Usually, I would agree, but the "illegal roster" in this case is being punished by Kain specifically.

Yeah, this whole situation is fucked in general, not least of which because both Archer's and Kain's abilities are worded like utter shit.
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Yeah but Kain effects mechanics and not mercs, which I think would be the stronger wording over Archer who just covers abilities effecting him directly.

I see warping mechanics to be stronger than self protection.
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-FFDragon- posted...

Yeah but Kain effects mechanics and not mercs, which I think would be the stronger wording over Archer who just covers abilities effecting him directly.

I see warping mechanics to be stronger than self protection.

FWIW you're actually right. I'd already given DC a precedent on Lightning who says 'cannot be affected by any abilities' with Army of One and said Lightning would get TKO'd by it. I had forgotten that, but it makes sense and is consistent. So we'll probably go with Kain TKOing Tiro here.
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Stealth admin strikes again.
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There are two ways I saw to interpret it, and strangely the points of contention for me aren't where you thought they were.

1. Archer wins because the way Kain enforces "balance" is by ejecting mercs that don't fit the stipulation set, because Kain isn't actually altering the game mechanics or whether specific rosters are legal or not

2. However, Kain was technically declared first, so if you resolve his Start of Battle with Pre-Battle timing, his non-targeted ejection technically happens before Archers

3. However, by the time Start of Battles resolve, Archer's UBW has already resolved, meaning resolving Kain's SoB roster ejection, which is non-targeted, modified to pre-battle timing, would have NORMALLY resolved before Archer's UBW, but because it starts as a Start of Battle and only changes timing if he's not rostered, it's too late at that point. Basically, Kain's Scion of Balance Start of Battle abilities exist in this point of limbo before Start of Battle but after Pre-Battle. (there's only a point of contention if Kain isn't rostered, otherwise, it just resolves as a Start of Battle and undoubtedly second, meaning Archer is protected)

In the end I come to the same conclusion you do (almost-- I'd have Kain successfully ejecting his own team since they aren't protected by UBW as he's not actually altering rosterability) but for different reasons.
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But yeah if you gave DC bad precedent to begin with then I guess the ruling is straightforward-- I think Scion being ruled like that is dumb but what can you do.
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Lopen posted...

But yeah if you gave DC bad precedent to begin with then I guess the ruling is straightforward-- I think Scion being ruled like that is dumb but what can you do.

FWIW I feel like this comes down to having fuzzy and imprecise targeting/effect mechanics and that this is definitely something we need to fix going forward. Not for this particular game, but like in general. There's a lack of clarity on what happens when system mechanics are fucked with and clarifying and codifying would be useful.
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For the record the big reason I disagree with Scion altering rosterability status inherently is because it has Start of Battle timing, meaning it's not actually resolving before rosters are sent and thus can't actually alter rosterability status. That's kinda why the mechanics are weird on it.

Like say for example you used an ability nullifying Start of Battle used vs Kain. What happens then? Kain's in this weird state where if he's rostered, your roster works, and if he's not, your roster doesn't work, so it kinda needs to be in such a way where it's more like "here's a suggested number, and you send whatever roster you want, and if you don't obey the number you suffer consequences (if this ability goes off)"
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I agree that Kain needs to be a polite suggestion btw

This is something I'd fix going forward, I just goofed with that ruling in hindsight
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Which is hilariously the way I thought it worked way back when I Lopen posted...

For the record the big reason I disagree with Scion altering rosterability status inherently is because it has Start of Battle timing, meaning it's not actually resolving before rosters are sent and thus can't actually alter rosterability status. That's kinda why the mechanics are weird on it.

Like say for example you used an ability nullifying Start of Battle used vs Kain. What happens then? Kain's in this weird state where if he's rostered, your roster works, and if he's not, your roster doesn't work, so it kinda needs to be in such a way where it's more like "here's a suggested number, and you send whatever roster you want, and if you don't obey the number you suffer consequences (if this ability goes off)"

Which is hilariously the way I thought Kain worked back on week 1 when I got hosed. 'Oops'
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Pardon the odd quote, dumb phone
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Only ruling input I give that makes sense to the playerbase comes when I'm not actually an admin. Funny how that works, huh?
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Anyway, I can only have so much sympathy for Tiro because I saw this threat coming a mile away and it was so easily countered by just killing Kain-- and why wouldn't you kill Kain he's way better than Kuja anyway!
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Lopen posted...

Anyway, I can only have so much sympathy for Tiro because I saw this threat coming a mile away and it was so easily countered by just killing Kain-- and why wouldn't you kill Kain he's way better than Kuja anyway!

Or he could just use UBW and if I didn't say FRLEEZE let it rock and win. Why the fuck would you greed out when you pull out the autowin ability???????????????????? That's not the fuckin time for it!
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He did not respect UBW to defeat everyone

Not enough faith in the bone of his sword.
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Hey can someone tag me whenever me/tom is unfrozen?

I'm not gonna be around like at all tomorrow
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Uh, I specifically asked about Kain and was told that UBW overrode it, so...
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popcorn.gif
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Triofrog posted...

Uh, I specifically asked about Kain and was told that UBW overrode it, so...

*looks to kan*
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ok what was the keyword to bring THAT one up
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that one I just had the url saved
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So there is a .txt somewhere
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