Current Events > LOL at studies that say the US has the worst health care in the world

(+) Yeah! (+)

I Like Toast posted...

Romulox28 posted...

tl;dr - the US spends the most on healthcare but its outcomes are the worst when you look at rates of infant mortality, life expectancy past age 60, and ability to offer preventative treatment rather than just doing reactive treatment

We count infant mortality rate as x
Death before 2 years, for pretty much any reason. Other countries count only if it dies in the hospital and others 90 days after birth.

Apart of what makes us look worse is we use more strict definitions for most statistics. Of course we still have significant problems in regards to health care. But it's not really the quality offered that is our problem.

indeed: the issue is access.
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Sir Will posted...

Making things bigger will increase overhead. Shocking! What an amazing revelation... that means exactly jack and s*** without comparing it to alternatives.

who is going to pay for all of that and how?

Darkman124 posted...

again

the population you're talking about adding cost less per person than medicare/medicaid customers, by a great deal.

https://archive.ahrq.gov/research/findings/factsheets/costs/expriach/

5% of the population account for 49% of the cost.

i'm skeptical, because of this:

http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/30/news/economy/obamacare-patients-blue-cross-blue-shield/index.html

the additional population is going to use more medical facilities and services than you think. also factor in the impending retirement crisis as a bunch more people retire and depend on the government for their expensive healthcare needs to be met.

it's definitely going to be a huge increase in spending.

Transcendentia posted...

i'm skeptical, because of this:

http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/30/news/economy/obamacare-patients-blue-cross-blue-shield/index.html

the new obamacare patients were 20% more expensive

we're talking about a comparison to medicare/medicaid patients that are more like 500% more expensive
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Transcendentia posted...

What percentage of your total income was it?

Around 5%
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Darkman124 posted...

indeed: the issue is access

A lot of it is self inflicted by American culture. Especially our lack of worker rights. People don't want to take a day off to see a doctor preemptively. Between the idea of we should only use a sick day if we're physically unable to get out of bed and the lack of pto we have, few people want to waste one of their days on it either.

Even if we magically made health care free without changing anything, we'd still have large issues to tackle. But cost is a good start
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Darkman124 posted...

Transcendentia posted...

i'm skeptical, because of this:

http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/30/news/economy/obamacare-patients-blue-cross-blue-shield/index.html

the new obamacare patients were 20% more expensive

we're talking about a comparison to medicare/medicaid patients that are more like 500% more expensive

the point is that the american population is more unhealthy and sick than we realized. which is why providing everyone with medicare would probably bankrupt us. even if the most expensive people are already covered under medicare, adding more people (many of which will be a lot sicker than expected, as we see with Obamacare) could result in spending 4x-5x more than what we currently spend. still disagree?

Life Sympathy posted...

Transcendentia posted...

What percentage of your total income was it?

Around 5%

seems pretty substantial to me.

Transcendentia posted...

Reminder that every leftist attempt at improving access to healthcare has made it more expensive. And attempting to hide that behind taxation wouldn't make it any cheaper.

Only because they had to compromise as to make businesses happy. Single payer universal health is shown to being very cost efficient by comparison but even most democrats don't want that.

The ACA is crap but until the Republicans can come up with a better plan we are stuck with it. So far the Republicans plans have been worse.
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Transcendentia posted...

seems pretty substantial to me.

It does not bother me and the numerical amount was extremely pathetic compared to what I pay for my own health expenses.
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creativerealms posted...

Transcendentia posted...

Reminder that every leftist attempt at improving access to healthcare has made it more expensive. And attempting to hide that behind taxation wouldn't make it any cheaper.

Only because they had to compromise as to make businesses happy. Single payer universal health is shown to being very cost efficient by comparison but even most democrats don't want that.

The ACA is crap but until the Republicans can come up with a better plan we are stuck with it. So far the Republicans plans have been worse.

wow i wonder why you guys were too busy conflating ACA with "affordable healthcare" then. sure was plenty of yall preaching about affordable healthcare and Obamacare for a couple years at least.

Life Sympathy posted...

Transcendentia posted...

seems pretty substantial to me.

It does not bother me and the numerical amount was extremely pathetic compared to what I pay for my own health expenses.

wow i guess you must be enough of a high roller that 5% doesn't even phase you

Transcendentia posted...

the point is that the american population is more unhealthy and sick than we realized. which is why providing everyone with medicare would probably bankrupt us. even if the most expensive people are already covered under medicare, adding more people (many of which will be a lot sicker than expected, as we see with Obamacare) could result in spending 4x-5x more than what we currently spend. still disagree?

yes, because we currently subsidize 50% of all employer plans by making them pretax expenditures for businesses and individuals

pretty much the key part of any 'covers everyone' plan will be an elimination of that tax credit (and of the requirement that businesses provide it). it is actually something the investor class will appreciate as it will make labor cheaper.

your numbers are made up and ignore the parts we already are paying for

if you want an honest highly conservative estimate sum medicare+medicaid+obamacare exchanges with the per-person numbers for private insurance times the number of privately insured

dont just multiply medicare/medicaid by 5, because that's stupid and nonsensical.
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Transcendentia posted...

who is going to pay for all of that and how?

And who pays the insurance overhead? Who pays for those without insurance who get emergency care? And everyone pays more because preventative medicine is cheaper than reactionary.
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Transcendentia posted...

wow i guess you must be enough of a high roller that 5% doesn't even phase you

Not really. I'm just good at financial management.
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Darkman124 posted...

Transcendentia posted...

the point is that the american population is more unhealthy and sick than we realized. which is why providing everyone with medicare would probably bankrupt us. even if the most expensive people are already covered under medicare, adding more people (many of which will be a lot sicker than expected, as we see with Obamacare) could result in spending 4x-5x more than what we currently spend. still disagree?

yes, because we currently subsidize 50% of all employer plans by making them pretax expenditures for businesses and individuals

pretty much the key part of any 'covers everyone' plan will be an elimination of that tax credit (and of the requirement that businesses provide it). it is actually something the investor class will appreciate as it will make labor cheaper.

your numbers are made up and ignore the parts we already are paying for

if you want an honest highly conservative estimate sum medicare+medicaid+obamacare exchanges with the per-person numbers for private insurance times the number of privately insured

dont just multiply medicare/medicaid by 5, because that's stupid and nonsensical.

your formula seems to assume that the costs will scale linearly as we add people. i'm of the opinion and gut feeling that it'll be more of an exponential growth in costs. how much "americans are sicker than we thought" are you accounting for in your estimate? what about the increase in retirees over the next decade or two?

Sir Will posted...

Transcendentia posted...

who is going to pay for all of that and how?

And who pays the insurance overhead? Who pays for those without insurance who get emergency care? And everyone pays more because preventative medicine is cheaper than reactionary.

so how much do you want to increase people's income taxes by?

Life Sympathy posted...

Transcendentia posted...

wow i guess you must be enough of a high roller that 5% doesn't even phase you

Not really. I'm just good at financial management.

nah i think if you had a tight budget that was under control, you'd still notice 5%. the fact that you don't means you're making a lot. is that true for everyone else, though? what about for the self employed that are going to get shafted even more if we increase those taxes?

I am too young to know what the insurance environment was prior to the ACA--how did someone insure themselves and their families? How expensive was it?
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Transcendentia posted...

your formula seems to assume that the costs will scale linearly as we add people. i'm of the opinion and gut feeling that it'll be more of an exponential growth in costs. how much "americans are sicker than we thought" are you accounting for in your estimate? what about the increase in retirees over the next decade or two?

there is a huge difference between covering people who had no insurance and covering people who have insurance that is unreasonably expensive

generally the economy of scale effect will apply to a 300 million person plan, making it far cheaper per capita than any 1000 person plan
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Darkman124 posted...

Transcendentia posted...

your formula seems to assume that the costs will scale linearly as we add people. i'm of the opinion and gut feeling that it'll be more of an exponential growth in costs. how much "americans are sicker than we thought" are you accounting for in your estimate? what about the increase in retirees over the next decade or two?

there is a huge difference between covering people who had no insurance and covering people who have insurance that is unreasonably expensive

generally the economy of scale effect will apply to a 300 million person plan, making it far cheaper per capita than any 1000 person plan

insurance that is unreasonably expensive (coupled with high deductibles) is effectively the same as no insurance, except in the case where you get in a car accident and need the insurance. most americans aren't getting their day-to-day health needs taken care of. and we're unhealthy as a people.

hence why it's going to be the case that everyone is much more unhealthy than we realize.

we have more than 300 million people. as of 2015 it's 321 million. add in 10 to 15 illegal immigrants and we're quite a big nation.

and it being cheaper per capita is a poor measurement imo. it doesn't adequately take into account the way that increased costs are going to affect individuals, especially individuals who don't actually make that much money. it's going to affect the middle class most.

Transcendentia posted...

insurance that is unreasonably expensive (coupled with high deductibles) is effectively the same as no insurance

i think you misunderstood me

i'm speaking of the employer plans that actually are pretty decent for the people using them, because they're not actually paying much of their annual cost

the federal government is effectively paying about half by making it a tax deduction. the employer is paying about 30-40%.

those people? not a significant cost to add on. they're where you get savings, because now you're negotiating fees with a much larger pool, and the people in that pool still don't use it frequqently

simply put- americans aren't particularly healthy, but we're not the dumpster fire that the high risk pool represents, nation-wide.

my wife is home so stop being a dick
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Best healthcare but no one can access it
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NibeIungsnarf posted...

Do such studies take into consideration the high rate of Christian dumbos in America who would rather pray over a dying child than take them to hospital skewering the mortality rate?

no, because almost nobody is like that
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Looks like the ACA repeal bill has died.
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lol