Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 118: China Don't Care

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-worlds-20-strongest-militaries-ranked-2016-4
http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/06/asia/japan-military-pearl-harbor-anniversary/index.html

either or should work okay, though the latter is better than the former i think. just because it's not really a by the numbers analysis. business insider has put Japan at 4th for years now. second link just has US officials outright saying that Japan's legit top tier. this one puts Japan down in 7th:

http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp

but i'm a bit more skeptical there due to how score's weighted.

either way, all that should be enough. if NK attacks the US, China and/or Japan will run through 'em. Japan would have plenty of reason to believe they're on the chopping block, China will want to keep the US out of their yard. if NK attacks Japan, China or Japan will do the job.

i did forget about South Korea too but i'd imagine they'd also attack in either scenario. NK is a lot of hot air because if they try anything in any one region, they've got two others breathing down their neck and they're all much stronger.
---

As a non-American it's clear that this topic has an American bias, though to be fair that's to be expected considering how many Americans are here. As interesting as what's going on in Venezuela is, it has very little to do with American politics.

At least until the US decides to remove him power.
---

Does Russia have any particular relationship with NK?
---

And as an American, I'm all for politics of other regions to be brought up here! I won't always understand it or comment, but that's okay and it can be a good learning experience along the way. American politics is the core here, but I don't think it's the requirement.
---

No Rasmussen bounceback for Trump. Still 39% approval today.

Of course he could say it's 50% if you round it to the nearest quarter
---

russian oil fuels NK.
it's very much so a case of russia using NK for more money and to distract the US. but if they overstep, they're very expendable.
---

Wanglicious posted...

frankly anything to get them out of it is okay but it's still funny to see more "true communism has never been tried!" type of rhetoric out of it.

I don't see why those comments are relevant at all, so if that's the funny thing then yeah -- but if your point is "Venezuela is/was communist" then you don't really have a strong grasp on what communism is.
---

We talked about this a week or so ago, but the political revolution crowd is trying to primary out Machin. The woman running against him is doing an AMA today:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Political_Revolution/comments/6qwhzl/joe_manchin_refused_to_listen_to_our_pleas_for/

If she somehow wins the primary, she's going to lose by 50+ points in the general election.
---

from that name alone, she's not getting anywhere.
local elections tend to get a lot of crazy people on all sides. they usually don't get beyond the first step.
---

The Democratic party shouldn't go the tea party route and push for more ideologues.
---

another great article i found about how 2007 caused all the craziness of what we experience today

http://www.todayonline.com/commentary/why-world-changed-2007
---

Metal_DK posted...

another great article i found about how 2007 caused all the craziness of what we experience today

http://www.todayonline.com/commentary/why-world-changed-2007

For the first time I'm glad I clicked on a Politics topic
---

Peace___Frog posted...

The Democratic party shouldn't go the tea party route and push for more ideologues.

Agreed.

But the tea party was at least smart and ran in areas they could win. Pushing for a far left candidate in WV to replace a sitting senator, who just saved the key democratic legislative achievement in the past decade or so, is insane. The comments on the AMA are bizarre, and I just can't believe people would be naive enough to not understand she would get demolished in the primary.

If you want to replace "blue dog" or corporate democrats, target states where any democratic candidate is likely to be an overwhelming favorite. I swear, we are so dumb when it comes to demographics sometimes.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

My opening post is literally about Trump's words about North Korea

I'm not sure what there is to discuss about it though until something actually happens?

If North Korea can actually strike the US and legitimately threatens to do so, I support some form of appropriate military action.

Is this the sort of discussion that would make Corrik happy?

What I find interesting is that I think this is the first time a US official, to my knowledge, has said that North Korea likely could send missiles to the mainland. Though they did say the missiles likely lacked capabilities to re-enter upon getting there.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

I thought Japan wasn't allowed to have any military that could mobilize to invade another country?

Japan is only allowed to have a "self-defense" force. However, they have been quite slyly circumventing that and I believe even have sent some troops to a coalition offensive not too recently.
---

kevwaffles posted...

Corrik posted...

I am on the record in saying I am not fond of this term and hoping he does not run next time, but a lot of the stuff in this topic borderlines on pettiness/obsessiveness.

And that's really the heart of the problem for you. Back during the election when you had what you viewed as positive talking points, you talked about those. Often not in these topics to the annoyance of everyone, but you talked about them.

Now you openly admit you don't like this administration, but you don't want anyone else talking about the constant influx of information about it. And you call others petty?

This makes no sense but ok.
---

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Metal_DK posted...

another great article i found about how 2007 caused all the craziness of what we experience today

http://www.todayonline.com/commentary/why-world-changed-2007

For the first time I'm glad I clicked on a Politics topic

happy to be of service. Remember. 2007. Worst year post ww2. Ruined society
---

The left trying to adopt the tactics of the Tea Party I think is doubtful to work because the left, as loud as they are, don't really view Republicans as an existential threat. Their jobs aren't going away, their lifestyle isn't changing, their property isn't being seized, Republicans don't question their right to exist.
---

red sox 777 posted...

The left trying to adopt the tactics of the Tea Party I think is doubtful to work because the left, as loud as they are, don't really view Republicans as an existential threat. Their jobs aren't going away, their lifestyle isn't changing, their property isn't being seized, Republicans don't question their right to exist.

Tell that to LGBTQ or Muslim Democrats
---

Also, there's more than one axis here. Manchin may be the most conservative Democrat in the Senate but that doesn't make him a corporate Democrat. That Reddit AMA shows Manchin working to protect coal miners' jobs....it's the very opposite of the attitude that we need to move into the future of clean, high education, jobs that just happen to be dominated by the corporate world.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

The left trying to adopt the tactics of the Tea Party I think is doubtful to work because the left, as loud as they are, don't really view Republicans as an existential threat. Their jobs aren't going away, their lifestyle isn't changing, their property isn't being seized, Republicans don't question their right to exist.

Tell that to LGBTQ or Muslim Democrats

They make up a very small percentage of voters. Now, if a lot of other Democrats saw a threat to them as an existential threat to themselves, they could replicate the sentiment among the Tea Party.
---

You sure? If 1/3 of the country is Democrat, 10% of people are LGBTQ, and most of those people are Democrat, that's quite a chunk
---

Honestly, the thing that stood out to me about the NK situation was how Trump just seamlessly reverted to his old talking points on it.

His comments about how China could easily handle it but we're too dumb to get them to is the same stuff he had been saying all along... but then after he actually talked with them he came out saying, "I was surprised to learn it's not actually as simple as I thought."

...and now it's like that episode never happened.

Which is not very reassuring.
---

https://twitter.com/abbydphillip/status/892452720032055297

WH essentially confirming WaPo story about Don Jr. statement: "The president weighed in just as any father would."

Yeah that's reallllll smart Donald
---

But their distribution causes great waste electorally, because a large portion of them live in deep blue states and especially in the deepest blue parts of said states.

Also, the strength of the Tea Party is their ability to extend the feeling of existential threat to people who really are not in much danger yet. That gets them a lot more people, including many who weren't Republicans to start with.
---

Can Trump just go out into the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot someone already? Since that's about what it would take to get him impeached.
---

Pretty sure they're distributed fairly evenly, except for adults who are well-to-do enough to specifically relocate to a friendlier area
---

"yet"?

Also, the very fact that "well if they wanted their voices heard they should live somewhere else" is a thing is perhaps one of the biggest signs that the electoral system is absurd.
---

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Can Trump just go out into the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot someone already? Since that's about what it would take to get him impeached.

I've said this before

But can you IMAGINE being Trump's lawyers watching him constantly confirm everything they work so hard to deny
---

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Can Trump just go out into the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot someone already? Since that's about what it would take to get him impeached.

Congress would just say that he felt his life was in danger.

Only way he's impeached with Conservatives in control is if he performs a 3rd trimester abortion while announcing a gun ban.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Pretty sure they're distributed fairly evenly, except for adults who are well-to-do enough to specifically relocate to a friendlier area

The people who strongly identify politically as a member of that group are not distributed evenly at all. Relocation in the US is common and not terribly expensive, especially when relocating to areas that have more and higher paying jobs (like blue states). And children cannot vote.
---

xp1337 posted...

"yet"?

Yet, precisely. Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
---

xp1337 posted...

Honestly, the thing that stood out to me about the NK situation was how Trump just seamlessly reverted to his old talking points on it.

His comments about how China could easily handle it but we're too dumb to get them to is the same stuff he had been saying all along... but then after he actually talked with them he came out saying, "I was surprised to learn it's not actually as simple as I thought."

...and now it's like that episode never happened.

Which is not very reassuring.

I hadn't even considered this.

He retains nothing besides hatred, greed, selfishness, and vulgarity.
---

He would be very poorly informed indeed if a 10 minute explanation of history from the president of China was nearly as informative to him as he made it out to be. That post-meeting statement was probably more flattery than anything else.
---

red sox 777 posted...

He would be very poorly informed indeed if a 10 minute explanation of history from the president of China was nearly as informative to him as he made it out to be.

You say this like it's an implausible scenario.
---

So now we have Trump admitting through his spokeswoman that he helped craft the cover story for his son's meeting with the Russian lawyer, a story that may have held had his son not released the email chain that proved it to be bogus.

Because that's what good fathers do!
---

red sox 777 posted...

He would be very poorly informed indeed if a 10 minute explanation of history from the president of China was nearly as informative to him as he made it out to be. That post-meeting statement was probably more flattery than anything else.

"It's more complicated than i thought" is something that can be understood in under a minute.
---

red sox 777 posted...

He would be very poorly informed indeed if a 10 minute explanation of history from the president of China was nearly as informative to him as he made it out to be. That post-meeting statement was probably more flattery than anything else.

What part of Trump's political life has ever led you to believe he is informed?
---

red sox 777 posted...

He would be very poorly informed indeed if a 10 minute explanation of history from the president of China was nearly as informative to him as he made it out to be.

I'll pass up the lay-up of "Right" and just say that I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people were poorly informed on the state of geopolitical relationships there.

Even I feel like I don't have too strong a grasp on them.
---

This rhetoric about China being able to rein in North Korea if they wanted to is also highly flattering to China. It's an acknowledgement of their great power status.
---

red sox 777 posted...

This rhetoric about China being able to rein in North Korea if they wanted to is also highly flattering to China. It's an acknowledgement of their great power status.

I'm sure they are totally flattered by the POTUS undermining their commitment to peace in the region
---

xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

He would be very poorly informed indeed if a 10 minute explanation of history from the president of China was nearly as informative to him as he made it out to be.

I'll pass up the lay-up of "Right" and just say that I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people were poorly informed on the state of geopolitical relationships there.

Even I feel like I don't have too strong a grasp on them.

But you aren't the president of the United States, you don't have a huge team of people researching and briefing you before an important meeting like this one. Trump is in effect saying, I learned more from you in 10 minutes over dinner than from all the hundreds of hours my staff put into researching this and all the experts they talked to. Because you are just so great.

My guess is that flattery was also the message that was understood on the Chinese side.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

This rhetoric about China being able to rein in North Korea if they wanted to is also highly flattering to China. It's an acknowledgement of their great power status.

I'm sure they are totally flattered by the POTUS undermining their commitment to peace in the region

Undermining peace for self-interest is what great powers do. At least according to the last 70 years of Chinese rhetoric about the United States!
---

That seems undercut by all the reports on how briefings and presentations have had to be handled for this administration.
---

(As another meta point, if you want to act as though people/voters knew exactly what they were voting for when they voted for Trump, fine. I think reporting shows that to not be entirely accurate, but that's a framework that I - and I think most of the topic - can work with/debate. In fact, I suspect there'd be a fair amount of agreement with that broadly. But you're going a lot further and assuming a lot of things about the administration that seem to have no basis in reality and are contradicted by all reports and then retroactively assuming voters knew and chose this. It isn't interesting or fun to talk about. It's just being contrary but again not interesting because it doesn't seem at all based in reality

it just makes me sad)
---

xp1337 posted...

That seems undercut by all the reports on how briefings and presentations have had to be handled for this administration.

Think about what you would do if you were in the shoes of the president of China. Assume that the president of the US is an idiot who ignores all information from his team? Or assume otherwise?

Even if it turns out to be true, you don't lose anything really for not believing it. But if you decide you are playing 4d chess with a fool and you can therefore stop calculating.....you could lose if it turns out he's not a fool.
---

That doesn't seem relevant?

What they thought doesn't really matter here.
---

But he is a fool

There really isn't any documented evidence to the contrary
---

I would honestly wager that anyone who posts in these topics knows more about how the US Government functions and about World Affairs than Trump does
---

Jakyl25 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

The left trying to adopt the tactics of the Tea Party I think is doubtful to work because the left, as loud as they are, don't really view Republicans as an existential threat. Their jobs aren't going away, their lifestyle isn't changing, their property isn't being seized, Republicans don't question their right to exist.

Tell that to LGBTQ or Muslim Democrats

Or BLM.
---