Current Events > You shouldn't support or defend Antifa

(+) Yeah! (+)

_RETS_ posted...

What do you mean?

Have you considered that antifa is what the opposition and outrage to a neo-Nazi movement looks like?
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Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Gas Chambers, Ovens, the deaths of MILLIONS and the sacrifices of countless lives fighting one of the worst legitimate Evils in the history of all mankind makes this the least slippery slope in existence. Humanity drew a line and that shit doesn't get to be a "belief". There's no conundrum here.

Let's not ever forget what Nazis fucking are. Do not normalize them, ever. Do not brush aside their insanity and monstrosity as simply a "different opinion" or "political belief" ever.
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Antifar posted...

_RETS_ posted...

What do you mean?

Have you considered that antifa is what the opposition and outrage to a neo-Nazi movement looks like?

Yes. But you're not being fully honest. Antifa is what AN opposition looks like. Not THE opposition. But they are also often wrong. Giving them the support and flexibility to discern who should and shouldn't have violence directed toward them is a mistake. There are better means by which to achieve their desired outcome, especially since it is an overwhelmingly majority and bipartisan opinion that neo-nazis should fuck off

CurzonDax posted...

Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Gas Chambers, Ovens, the deaths of MILLIONS and the sacrifices of countless lives fighting one of the worst legitimate Evils in the history of all mankind makes this the least slippery slope in existence. Humanity drew a line and that shit doesn't get to be a "belief". There's no conundrum here.

Let's not ever forget what Nazis fucking are. Do not normalize them, ever. Do not brush aside their insanity and monstrosity as simply a "different opinion" or "political belief" ever.

Literally no one is doing that.

_RETS_ posted...

CurzonDax posted...

Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Gas Chambers, Ovens, the deaths of MILLIONS and the sacrifices of countless lives fighting one of the worst legitimate Evils in the history of all mankind makes this the least slippery slope in existence. Humanity drew a line and that shit doesn't get to be a "belief". There's no conundrum here.

Let's not ever forget what Nazis fucking are. Do not normalize them, ever. Do not brush aside their insanity and monstrosity as simply a "different opinion" or "political belief" ever.

Literally no one is doing that.

So the Neo-nazis fucks aren't saying any of that? They're just silently protesting? I guess all those threats and screams about making America White were just my imagination. By giving them a voice outlet you're telling them its ok to have those views. They should not be allowed to protest. Ban them, protest them as well.
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CurzonDax posted...

Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Gas Chambers, Ovens, the deaths of MILLIONS and the sacrifices of countless lives fighting one of the worst legitimate Evils in the history of all mankind makes this the least slippery slope in existence. Humanity drew a line and that shit doesn't get to be a "belief". There's no conundrum here.

Let's not ever forget what Nazis fucking are. Do not normalize them, ever. Do not brush aside their insanity and monstrosity as simply a "different opinion" or "political belief" ever.

That's nice. You know neo-Nazis are the not the same group, right?
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CurzonDax posted...

_RETS_ posted...

CurzonDax posted...

Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Gas Chambers, Ovens, the deaths of MILLIONS and the sacrifices of countless lives fighting one of the worst legitimate Evils in the history of all mankind makes this the least slippery slope in existence. Humanity drew a line and that shit doesn't get to be a "belief". There's no conundrum here.

Let's not ever forget what Nazis fucking are. Do not normalize them, ever. Do not brush aside their insanity and monstrosity as simply a "different opinion" or "political belief" ever.

Literally no one is doing that.

So the Neo-nazis fucks aren't saying any of that? They're just silently protesting? I guess all those threats and screams about making America White were just my imagination. By giving them a voice outlet you're telling them its ok to have those views. They should not be allowed to protest. Ban them, protest them as well.

My mistake, i thought you were referring to anyone in this topic.

I agree, they shouldn't be given a voice and they should be protested. But not violently confronted by vigilantes. That moves things further from the goal that pretty much the entire country wants to achieve.

_RETS_ posted...

It is also very different times though. The internet and how thoroughly interconnected the entire world is now would make it very hard for something insidious like that to happen without there being oppositionand outrage much earlier on

You're probably right. The internet is a powerful propaganda tool that can be used for the opposite purpose though. The difference is that no one group controls it, at least at the moment. Although there are powerful corporations that control large parts of it (and governments can get their tentacles into it too).

The other relatively comforting thing is that Hitler was a bit of a special case. He knew how to keep his more insidious opinions to himself early on and was a great orator, among other things. Although, fascism did rise in other countries like Italy and Spain.

VectorChaos posted...

We're also not in the position Germany was in when Hitler began rising to power.

The Treaty of Versailles' effects on Germany after WWI are why he was able to do what he did.

True. Another Wall Street crash type event coupled with the rise of automation and potential mass job losses could be a catalyst though.

But yeah, it'd probably take a combination of many large events like that for things to get that bad. Even then, there were a variety of factors that allowed fascism to rise beyond just the economy, so the chances of it happening are pretty low admittedly.

CrimsonRage posted...

How can you be a Neo-Nazi/white supremacist and also a "proud communist"?

I believe his sig is tongue-in-cheek.
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luigi13579 posted...

_RETS_ posted...

Through political means. Using violence against Nazis in WW2 was necessary because they were a massive militarized force with full government backing because they were the government. As awful as this last weekend was, the alt-right is a vast minority of conservatives. More violence is not going to stamp them out, just like more violence in the ME continues to radicalize. It will only fuel the victim complex that they have dedicated their pitiful lives to and lead to further violence. There is a path to resolution that doesn't require both sides to continue to be violent.

But you are completely missing the point. If the violence was being directed exclusively toward neo-nazis, then there would be a better case for it. But there is precedent of their misdirected aggression victimizing those who do not fall in that category. Giving a movement that authority and support to determine who should and shouldn't receive their violence is a mistake because as we have often seen, they will paint with a broad brush to justify violence against anyone who doesn't share their every view. And what is that, if not fascism?

It's a tough one, because obviously you don't want it to get to the stage where neo-Nazis are anywhere near government or are otherwise in a position to spread or put into action their ideology. In the early days of Hitler trying to obtain power, he and his cronies were a "vast minority" also, and we all know how that went. People may think it couldn't happen in the US (and hopefully they're right), but underestimate that level of hatred at your peril.

I absolutely agree that going on the offensive can easily backfire and drag in people who aren't neo-Nazis, and I condemn anyone who does that.

I do, however, support counter-protesting at neo-Nazi rallies, peacefully if at all possible, and confronting these views head-on. Attacking them is wrong, and any violence should only be in self-defence, as much of it was (although some admittedly wasn't). It's a fine line, but they should certainly be kept in check IMO. Let them protest, but let those that want to confront their ideology do so as well (at those same rallies).

Overlooked this post. I agree. I absolutely think their platform should be challenged and their infringing ideology stamped out. The vast, vast majority of the country agrees with that.

I remember the greatest generation storming the beaches of Normandy, sucker punching nazis, and running away.

NeoShadowhen posted...

I remember the greatest generation storming the beaches of Normandy, sucker punching nazis, and running away.

Maybe they were the ones starting the confrontation? Did you ever think of that? They clearly didn't have any permits to be there.
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luigi13579 posted...

_RETS_ posted...

Through political means. Using violence against Nazis in WW2 was necessary because they were a massive militarized force with full government backing because they were the government. As awful as this last weekend was, the alt-right is a vast minority of conservatives. More violence is not going to stamp them out, just like more violence in the ME continues to radicalize. It will only fuel the victim complex that they have dedicated their pitiful lives to and lead to further violence. There is a path to resolution that doesn't require both sides to continue to be violent.

But you are completely missing the point. If the violence was being directed exclusively toward neo-nazis, then there would be a better case for it. But there is precedent of their misdirected aggression victimizing those who do not fall in that category. Giving a movement that authority and support to determine who should and shouldn't receive their violence is a mistake because as we have often seen, they will paint with a broad brush to justify violence against anyone who doesn't share their every view. And what is that, if not fascism?

It's a tough one, because obviously you don't want it to get to the stage where neo-Nazis are anywhere near government or are otherwise in a position to spread or put into action their ideology. In the early days of Hitler trying to obtain power, he and his cronies were a "vast minority" also, and we all know how that went. People may think it couldn't happen in the US (and hopefully they're right), but underestimate that level of hatred at your peril.

I absolutely agree that going on the offensive can easily backfire and drag in people who aren't neo-Nazis, and I condemn anyone who does that.

I do, however, support counter-protesting at neo-Nazi rallies, peacefully if at all possible, and confronting these views head-on. Attacking them is wrong, and any violence should only be in self-defence, as much of it was (although some admittedly wasn't). It's a fine line, but they should certainly be kept in check IMO. Let them protest, but let those that want to confront their ideology do so as well (at those same rallies).

I think confronting at the same rally is a deadly mistake as seen last week...

VectorChaos posted...

_RETS_ posted...

luigi13579 posted...

VectorChaos posted...

I keep seeing people make comparisons to pre-WWII appeasement.

I wasn't aware that American Neo-nazis were seizing territory and invading other nations with a government backed military.

The point is, that didn't happen overnight. It gradually happened over a number of years (decades even) and snowballed. As mentioned above, Hitler only had a handful of supporters early on, but through careful manoeuvring, that grew massively.

Again though, I condemn violence (unless out of genuine self-defence). Still, don't underestimate how things could progress. Thankfully, the chances are that they won't go that far (especially given the knowledge of what has gone before), but you have to be vigilant.

It is also very different times though. The internet and how thoroughly interconnected the entire world is now would make it very hard for something insidious like that to happen without there being oppositionand outrage much earlier on

We're also not in the position Germany was in when Hitler began rising to power.

The Treaty of Versailles' effects on Germany after WWI are why he was able to do what he did.

Stop spreading this meme
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ok