Board 8 > POLL: What do you think about the google memo?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Jakyl25 posted...

From 2006

http://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2006/03/getting-women-scientists-back-career-track-japan

Next month, Japan's government will launch a new category of grants open only to parents returning to the scientific workforce after extended childrearing breaks. It is part of a package of initiatives that also includes grants for institutions to develop schemes to help women balance research careers and family life. The underlying objective--set out in a draft 5-year policy plan--is to have women claim 25% of all new science and engineering positions at governmental institutions.

To boost the numbers, the Council for Science and Technology Policy (CSTP), the nation's highest science advisory body, set targets for the proportion of newly available permanent positions that go to women in the Third Science and Technology Basic Plan, expected to be adopted by the cabinet this month. Targets vary by field: 30% for health and life sciences, 30% for agricultural sciences, 20% for physical sciences, and 15% for engineering. The percentages are based on the proportions of women currently earning Ph.D.s in each area. "We assume that the ability of men and women are equal, so we can naturally expect that the rates [of women earning Ph.D.s] should be reflected in the rates of women becoming professors or assistant professors," says Kawamoto, who oversaw the drafting of the plan.

Glorious Nippon has shamed you, Vlado-san

How does that contradict what I said? It doesn't. Sad thing is the "work/parenting balance" thing doesn't become reality even when it's incorporated in law. For instance, 20 days of paid leave per year are allowed to Japanese workers, but they rarely take more than 5-6. That's just how Japanese society is. Too much importance is placed on work.

foolm0r0n posted...

Vlado posted...

Surely you don't believe women have more freedom in India

Yes, and in the 1980s US too.

lmao, yeah, the rights of women in the West somehow magically vanished since the 80s. No. They have more rights than ever in history, and that is why they choose professions they like better.

Besides, you're still just completely ignoring any contradictions to your theory. China and Brazil have far less freedoms for everyone (especially women), but also have very few women in tech. China even has a strong growing economy, and has the same problem.

China's got few women, period, because of the 1-child policy. And Brazil has "less freedoms for everyone"? What?

Are you one of those people?

I'm a person who makes conclusions based on facts. You are a person who likes some idea a lot and embraces it, and then goes around frantically searching for anything that might support it. Usually, you fail to find anything strong to support it... This case being no exception.
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The point of the memo was to say "it's biology, stop searching for any more answers."

No, it wasn't. He said that biology is also a factor, and that's being completely ignored by google's authoritarian "diversity" nonsense.

You claim to be libertarian, and yet you LOVE authoritarianism. Can't fool me!

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Being fired is worse than being beaten in the street, duh.

To this particular guy, it isn't, because he got a ton of job offers immediately, and will likely settle his case with google for 7 digits. But to a lot of people who do not have the luxury of such media attention, it's much worse.
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Vlado posted...

and will likely settle his case with google for 7 digits

LOL
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http://uk.businessinsider.com/james-damore-may-win-nlra-legal-case-google-2017-8
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Vlado posted...

How does that contradict what I said? It doesn't.

I'm sorry, I thought you implied that Japan wouldn't be into diversity hiring initiatives
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Apology accepted. They wouldn't be, but that was not the point. The point was a sane society wouldn't argue against something so obvious as the memo, much less when it's backed up by concrete data.
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Vlado posted...

China's got few women, period

48.5%

Vlado posted...

lmao, yeah, the rights of women in the West somehow magically vanished since the 80s

You're so in love with the force of government you're calling it magic now! Like in a disney princess movie!
https://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Inflation_Trends/cumulative_inflation.jpg

Vlado posted...

You claim to be libertarian, and yet you LOVE authoritarianism. Can't fool me!

You LOVE everything Trump does and want the executive branch to have ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM AUTHORITY over all individuals in the US to force them into national socialism. Everything I say is pro individuality anti socialism.

Vlado posted...

I'm a person who makes conclusions based on facts

Vlado posted...

I'm a person who makes conclusions based on facts

Vlado posted...

I'm a person who makes conclusions based on facts

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Do I need to make another "what it means to actually be conservative" topic?

Or do enough people realize worshipping the largest government in the world and supporting mass socialization and top-down forcible societal controls is not conservative?
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foolm0r0n posted...

Do I need to make another "what it means to actually be conservative" topic?

Yes
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foolm0r0n posted...

48.5%

Which is 3%, i.e. 33.5 million less than the men. That's a huge number. But I digress.

foolm0r0n posted...

You're so in love with the force of government you're calling it magic now!

Yeah, the government took away women's rights since the 80s... lmfao at the nonsense globalists actually believe.

foolm0r0n posted...

You LOVE everything Trump does and want the executive branch to have ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM AUTHORITY over all individuals in the US to force them into national socialism. Everything I say is pro individuality anti socialism.

lol, yeah, it's totally pro-individuality to supress individual thought and force everyone into political correctness. That's authoritarianism. It doesn't matter if you want the government or corporations to enslave people. It's still authoritarian.
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Vlado posted...

Yeah, the government took away women's rights since the 80s... lmfao at the nonsense globalists actually believe.

Wait, if the Deep State isn't taking rights away, then why are they so bad?
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Vlado posted...

Which is 3%, i.e. 33.5 million less than the men. That's a huge number. But I digress.

Which in your hyper-factual mind completely explains the 50% gender gap in tech. This is even worse than believing the 1-10% biological effect explains it.

Vlado posted...

Yeah, the government took away women's rights since the 80s

It took away everyone's. Women and minorities naturally got hit hardest by economic instability and the rising authoritarianism.

If you think things have actually gotten better since 1980, I recommend you read this guy's arguments: https://www.donaldjtrump.com

Vlado posted...

lol, yeah, it's totally pro-individuality to supress individual thought and force everyone into political correctness

Just because you cry and think about killing yourself every time I call you an idiot for saying something idiotic, doesn't mean I'm suppressing your thought or forcing you to do anything. It just means you're weak.

Either grow a thicker skin, or grow an actual brain that prevents you from saying intensely idiotic things. Preferably both. Then you'll be able to actually have a conversation with people instead of just feverishly screaming "CUCK BTFO GLOBALISTS"

Go protest in the UK and Russia if you are against actual suppression of speech. Oh wait you won't, you actually love government forcing/killing people you disagree with.
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Seriously, now I'm really wondering how a person could simultaneously argue that the government has expanded equal rights since the '70s AND that we need to rise up against that government's oppression
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Jakyl25 posted...

Seriously, now I'm really wondering how a person could simultaneously argue that the government has expanded equal rights since the '70s AND that we need to rise up against that government's oppression

It's a shame Vlado hates Pokemon because this is definitely an "It hurt itself in its confusion!" situation
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Kenri posted...

It's a shame Vlado hates Pokemon because this is definitely an "It hurt itself in its confusion!" situation

It's really not because only in this instant Vlado is pro-government. In the next instant he will be anti-government, but he has no awareness of the previous Vlados, so there isn't a contradiction or hypocrisy or anything.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Kenri posted...

It's a shame Vlado hates Pokemon because this is definitely an "It hurt itself in its confusion!" situation

It's really not because only in this instant Vlado is pro-government. In the next instant he will be anti-government, but he has no awareness of the previous Vlados, so there isn't a contradiction or hypocrisy or anything.

does a different wild vlado appear each time a globalist appears in the tall grass?
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There are infinite Vlados across the multiverse

Which one appears to us at any given moment is up to the lord of the universe and all creation, ertyu
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how terrifying
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Does punching a bob make you as bad as being a bob?
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foolm0r0n posted...

Which in your hyper-factual mind completely explains the 50% gender gap in tech. This is even worse than believing the 1-10% biological effect explains it.

lmfao, your "small to moderate" claim (i.e. 33-50%) now turned to 1-10%. You expect me to take you seriously?

On average, women are much less interested in tech jobs than men. Deal with it.

Jakyl25 posted...

Seriously, now I'm really wondering how a person could simultaneously argue that the government has expanded equal rights since the '70s AND that we need to rise up against that government's oppression

I actually agree with Foolmo that, as a whole, things were much better in the 80s. His argument, however, was specifically about women, whose rights and power have only expanded since then. (In the West.)

Good to see him mention that there's little to no freedom of speech in the UK, and that people who take offence over mere words have thin skin. He often argues against the latter during his SJW sprees.

foolm0r0n posted...

It's really not because only in this instant Vlado is pro-government. In the next instant he will be anti-government

I'm pro-government when the government is taking care of its people, e.g. Russia, Hungary, Poland, Philippines. I'm anti-government when the government is working for the destruction of its people, e.g. Sweden, Germany.
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Vlado posted...

I actually agree with Foolmo that, as a whole, things were much better in the 80s. His argument, however, was specifically about women, whose rights and power have only expanded since then. (In the West.)

So either that's a bad thing, or men's rights have regressed significantly more than women's have expanded
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Yeah Russia is REALLY looking out for the best interests of their people. Not like their economy is shit, or the government silences dissent through forced censorship or arrests or anything.
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Theres a lot of money in tech in the USA, and men chase money more than women do, and for a longer period of time. Fun fact, Iran graduates more women in stem than men now. India graduates plenty of people (including women!) in stem. Those places also pay their programmers significantly less for work than the USA does, even with respect to cost of living differences.

Its shown that women in the USA who go into tech now tend to be from lower income backgrounds. Women coming from higher socio economic backgrounds tend to go into liberal arts type stuff. Men of all socioeconomic backgrounds are willing (at least more willing, there is a shortage of stem in the USA period, not just women honestly) to go into tech.

Its not really so much that "women's brains can't do the work", the work isn't that complex that the differences between mens and womens brains is the factor (there are some differences between most mens and womens brains fwiw, not necessarily one being better than the other). Its moreso that coding in western countries (where it pays a lot) is a bigger path to a positive male identity. Fun fact, most women like men who earn good money. And it has nothing to do with "once women have the good jobs theyll marry gas station employees!" crap that 2nd wave feminists argue. Most women who have MBAs making 70 to 100k want to marry men of at least similar status. Also, childless millennial women outearn childless millennial men fwiw, and the same thing happened when Gen X were in their 20s/30s. The 77 cents stat is extremely misguided.

I just think people need to realize that men pretty much its either work or prison. Women get work, prison, or stay at home wife/mother in the current economic climate of sitting in offices. It doesn't mean they shouldnt be allowed in tech, or president, or whatever. But people just need to realize that a career is more important to a man's mental health than it is to a woman's, as we get fewer options.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-take-over-tech-70-of-irans-science-and-engineering-students-are-women/#7098320c44de

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/02/24/childless-women-in-their-twenties-out-earn-men-so/#1b2bf11ba82c
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Metal_DK posted...

But people just need to realize that a career is more important to a man's mental health than it is to a woman's, as we get fewer options.

You could be a stay at home dad?

The idea that your career status defines your self-worth is kinda sick IMO
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Vlado posted...

lmfao, your "small to moderate" claim (i.e. 33-50%) now turned to 1-10%. You expect me to take you seriously?

Holy christ this is amazing. I love discovering stuff like this.

Vlado absolutely read this post and the passage that I quoted:
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/75686591/885059904

He was able to remember the "small to moderate", but he transformed the 10% that shows up not even ten words later into 33-50% in his head. He is not being willfully dishonest or ignorant here. His brain literally forced the numbers 33-50% into his head and forced out the 10%.

Of course our memories are unreliable, but this is a very large transformation that Vlado completely unaware of. He was so confident in that 33-50% number that he didn't even go back 1 page in the topic and verify that's what the number was. It's really amazing.

Vlado, if your brain is still turned on by the time you're reading this, how do you honestly expect someone to have a fact-based discussion with you when your brain completely warps clear facts like this so easily (not to mention what happens to the muddier facts)?
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Vlado posted...

On average, women are much less interested in tech jobs than men. Deal with it.

WHY though. Remember, that is the actual question that us adults are trying to talk about while you children shriek the same non-answer all the time? You cannot answer that question beyond 3-5%. I can answer it 90-100%. Deal with it (by posting more memes and sticking your head further down the sand).

Vlado posted...

I'm pro-government when the government is taking care of its people, e.g. Russia, Hungary, Poland, Philippines

Yes, this makes you a S O C I A L I S T

All you're saying is that if a government convinces you they are good, you will support them. That's 100% exactly the same as all these other pro-government sheep who you pretend to be superior to. The only difference is that you are convinced by different buzzwords than they are. I mean, if Russia and the Philliphines can convince you they have free speech even after admitting to many speech-based killings then obviously ANY politician can gain easily your support if they want.
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Jakyl25 posted...

You could be a stay at home dad?

The idea that your career status defines your self-worth is kinda sick IMO

Do you really think that option is available to as many men as it is women? I mean to be a stay at home dad it kinda requires a mother since they are the ones who you know....give birth. Women tend to want an employed man doing fairly well because the biological consequences of sex is pretty much 100% on the woman.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Metal_DK posted...

But people just need to realize that a career is more important to a man's mental health than it is to a woman's, as we get fewer options.

You could be a stay at home dad?

The idea that your career status defines your self-worth is kinda sick IMO

We had this discussion with one of our clients recently, a guy who was thinking about being a stay at home dad. People said that it's harder for a man to re-enter the professional workforce than a woman. They said it's harder for men to justify a large gap in their employment history.

I don't like the idea of judging your self-worth by your career either. But a lot of people do it.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Vlado posted...

On average, women are much less interested in tech jobs than men. Deal with it.

WHY though.

Software engineering is snag-hitting: the job.

Someone did a study where they had people do mock interviews of men and women, some of whom had voices modulated to sound like the opposite sex, some of whom had their voices modulated but not to sound like the opposite sex, and some of whom had their voices not-modulated.

The women actually performed measurably worse than the men. But women were 7x as likely to quit after hitting a snag than men. When you remove all the people of both genders who quit after one or two bad interviews the gender gap goes away. The causal variable, willingness to fail over and over and over again, is correlated with gender.

http://blog.interviewing.io/we-built-voice-modulation-to-mask-gender-in-technical-interviews-heres-what-happened/
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Metal_DK posted...

But people just need to realize that a career is more important to a man's mental health than it is to a woman's, as we get fewer options.

You could be a stay at home dad?

The idea that your career status defines your self-worth is kinda sick IMO

We had this discussion with one of our clients recently, a guy who was thinking about being a stay at home dad. People said that it's harder for a man to re-enter the professional workforce than a woman. They said it's harder for men to justify a large gap in their employment history.

I don't like the idea of judging your self-worth by your career either. But a lot of people do it.

Right, I'm not denying that it's reality for many men.

But we can work to change that.
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WhoopsyDaisy posted...

Software engineering is snag-hitting: the job.

Ok so you're at square 2 in this conversation when this topic is at like square 45

Do you want to catch yourself up first or...?
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foolm0r0n posted...

WhoopsyDaisy posted...

Software engineering is snag-hitting: the job.

Ok so you're at square 2 in this conversation when this topic is at like square 45

Do you want to catch yourself up first or...?

I'm answering a question from like 5 posts ago lol
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Jakyl25 posted...

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Metal_DK posted...

But people just need to realize that a career is more important to a man's mental health than it is to a woman's, as we get fewer options.

You could be a stay at home dad?

The idea that your career status defines your self-worth is kinda sick IMO

We had this discussion with one of our clients recently, a guy who was thinking about being a stay at home dad. People said that it's harder for a man to re-enter the professional workforce than a woman. They said it's harder for men to justify a large gap in their employment history.

I don't like the idea of judging your self-worth by your career either. But a lot of people do it.

Right, I'm not denying that it's reality for many men.

But we can work to change that.

At this point that involves women changing way more than men. Telling a woman to change is like misogyny 101 in the eyes of feminists. The whole "once women have the good jobs" argument has been proven false at this point as well.
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https://twitter.com/pixelatedboat/status/899763899355889664

This is what I think about the Google memo

velocycloraptor posted...

https://twitter.com/pixelatedboat/status/899763899355889664

This is what I think about the Google memo

I prefer the one before it in the thread.
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Huh, I see he's trying to capitalize on his martyrdom. I don't think that's a good idea since he's out of his element in live interviews. He's no Snowden.

And in response to that tweet, he never said that women's minds were inferior to men's. But that's how everyone is spinning it.
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Metal_DK posted...

At this point that involves women changing way more than men. Telling a woman to change is like misogyny 101 in the eyes of feminists.

Asking men to place less importance on their career status means asking women to change? What?
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His argument is that men place importance on their careers because women demand them to.
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That's a bad argument
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Jakyl25 posted...

That's a bad argument

Why? I hear "thats a bad argument" with NO substance every time.

Its not anyway, unemployed men is the number 1 cause of divorce. Its also significantly harder to get dates/romance/casual sex/healthy non sexual relationships as a unemployed man than woman.

Yes, some men work 80 hours a week for that 1% extra chance to getting the 200k upper tier management job or better. Those are also a small amount of positions.

The real problem is in the 5 figure salary range, where like 95% of salaried jobs are located. Men really want those 80 to 100k a year jobs (which stem grads have easily, i started at 70k after college in a really cheap place to live) due to the level of status it brings in the eyes of women.

However they (ill admit, im guilty here too tbh) see a lot of more positive responses from women here, across every socioeconomic status of women. Women who are doctors (nearly 50% of med school grads have been women since like the mid 90s) aren't marrying men who make 30 to 40k a year. At least not enough. Most are choosing to remain single if they don't find a man who makes a comparable salary. When you combine that with the fact that dying alone is the number one fear our generation has (and probably the onest before it), people get angry and pissed.

I hate to say it like this, but there is added incentive for men to be more powerful than women in our society, in world history for that matter. This drives a lot of men's actions. A lot of society is fueled by sex

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/nnyk37/what-vice-readers-fear-the-most-hannah-ewens-love-loneliness
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

Huh, I see he's trying to capitalize on his martyrdom. I don't think that's a good idea since he's out of his element in live interviews. He's no Snowden.

And in response to that tweet, he never said that women's minds were inferior to men's. But that's how everyone is spinning it.

The main point of the tweets I wanted to get across is "being good at tech can still make you a total dumbass who thinks sending an offensive memo to your coworkers is a good idea"

Even if this guy was right about every single thing in the memo (and he isn't), you don't just do something like that, giving people a reason to fire you from a sweet job at Google without being completely unable to understand other people on a fundamental level. And if you are completely unable to understand other people, maybe don't talk like an expert about human nature?

Metal_DK posted...

I hate to say it like this, but there is added incentive for men to be more powerful than women in our society. This drives a lot of men's actions. A lot of society is fueled by sex

But why put the honus more on women to change that? Society as a whole can change that.
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Also

Metal_DK posted...

When you combine that with the fact that dying alone is the number one fear our generation has (and probably the onest before it),

Everyone dies alone. Get over this need for companionship to complete yourself people!
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Yeah there are lots of women making money who don't want to date someone who makes less, and there is also a lot of guys who refuse to date women making more than them or refuse to date women that work at all. Societies values will change over time, the onus isn't on any one group. And the fact we have a society obsessed with money and status is hardly the fault of women.

Jakyl25 posted...

Everyone dies alone. Get over this need for companionship to complete yourself people!

Sometimes I think SHINE has it figured out. You don't need a real life companion to get platinums.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Metal_DK posted...

I hate to say it like this, but there is added incentive for men to be more powerful than women in our society. This drives a lot of men's actions. A lot of society is fueled by sex

But why put the honus more on women to change that? Society as a whole can change that.

Because people want relationships, love and sex, and every culture that has dating "for love" is man approaches woman, woman decides if hes datable.

I don't deny we still live in a patriarchy in a sense. Not the way feminists define it, but men are at the top of the totem pole in just about every society the world has ever seen, still today (there are also a LOT of men who are at the absolute bottom of the totem pole too though). However we never discuss how women's behavior contributes to it, or if we do its precursored with a war and peace length novel about how men are more evil.

Somebody has to step up to the plate and actually break down the gender roles, not just say "i want to break down gender roles". This includes women, and is rarely (if ever discussed). You can't say "end the patriarchy!, but i want a man whose older than me, makes similar if not more amount of money as me, and is tall and ambitious!". Thats.....the patriarchy.

It similar to what i call the "senator effect". Everyone hates congress, but thinks their senators are the only "good ones", because people are fucking stupid.

The only way we can get rid of a patriarchy is if women approach men 50% of the time, date men younger than them 50% of the time, less educated, lesser earning, pay for them, etc. Quotas go both ways. I'm only for women in stem, women in the senate, women in college quotas if there are equivalent quotas for men in where they lack. And then we go down the route of serious societal engineering.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Also

Metal_DK posted...

When you combine that with the fact that dying alone is the number one fear our generation has (and probably the onest before it),

Everyone dies alone. Get over this need for companionship to complete yourself people!

Humans are social creatures. Its why social media has ruined society. People like talking about themselves and being "in the loop". Hard to sell what you typed, even if its true.
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Fwiw, anecdotally, my mother was plenty open to dating a man who made less than her. Many guys she went on dates with were, in her words, "visibly bothered" when she told them she had an mba. Very few men want to be with a woman who is more educated than they are. And @HanOfTheNekos can confirm that it's not because my mom is fugly.

Misogynist men who are intimated by independent and educated women are likely to be just as much a reason why women don't procreate with men who earn less than they do as women tending to not be attracted to unmotivated losers with no ambition.
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WhoopsyDaisy posted...

I'm answering a question from like 5 posts ago lol

Without any of the context of the this whole topic and larger conversation that has been happening across many topics. Like, you should know what the rebuttal to your post is.
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velocycloraptor posted...

@Fired4Truth

Oh noooo the guy really fell into the whole political commentator thing.\

Well I guess he wasn't a good developer anyways so no real productivity has been lost, but it's still sad
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