Current Events > This should be the default for ALL restaurants

(+) Yeah! (+)

The Admiral posted...

I didn't know that, but I'm even more curious to hear his response now.

What always gets me is that all the chefs I know get a really fucking raw deal.

My last housemate was a chef. This guy had 25 years experience and the chef de cuisine in the last 10 restaurants he'd been a part of. Easily one of the best in the entire region. Guy pulled 60 hours a week minumum and usually closer to 80, doing shifts till 3am most nights including weekends. And his salary was $85k (australian). To give you an idea, that's what you'd get paid in an mid level level position in any tech start up in Australia, even without a particularly valuable skillset. And that's at a 38 hour week.

So personally I'm all in favour of chefs getting paid more, and service staff getting paid a reasonable wage and not freakin' stripper money.
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pinky0926 posted...

The Admiral posted...

fire_bolt posted...

Oh, I'm not saying its a good practice. I'm saying that the argument that its unfair to servers is dumb.

You're right, that is a dumb argument. Servers typically make far more than they deserve given their training and skill set, and this comes at the expense of the kitchen staff. This is referred to as the front-of-the-house vs. back-of-the-house disparity, and it widens the more expensive the restaurant gets.

At top places, the wait staff make significantly more money than the kitchen staff, despite the chefs in the kitchen having gone to culinary school and usually having loans to repay. There are multiple stories about NYC chefs who apply to become waiters in their own restaurants because the pay is so much better. The kitchen staffs at restaurants also skews heavily minority (Hispanic, specifically), so this ends up creating a stark racial disparity in restaurant pay also.

I'm totally in support of eliminating tips and just instituting a blanket 15% or so increase, so that the kitchen staff can also receive a fair wage. They're much more deserving of it than the wait staff is, IMO.

This is going to be an interesting conversation given fire_bolt is a chef, IIRC.

Interesting hell, he's completely right. Back of house at the place I'm working starts out at $8 for all positions are raises are associated with level of experience in this particular place, not time in the industry. Even with my training and background, that's what I started at. I moved up to $10 fairly quickly due to having certain skills, but the job barely pays a living wage for anyone without grill experience.

Part of that is that this place is especially shitty to BOH staff (back of house being anyone who works in the kitchen, FOH is front of house anyone who works in hospitality). Industry standard starting pay for BOH is $10 in this area, with minimum wage being $7.25. Cooks are leaving the place all the time for better jobs. I'm only staying because they have a $750 bonus for anyone who stays six months, then I'm gonna bounce too.

This barely relates to the conversation at hand tho. I'm glad my server friends are all making bank, and I'd not want a pay raise at their expense. The company could afford to pay cooks more and retain better staff as a result, but the owner is a cheapskate who makes his money by keeping costs as low as possible. Servers here are extremely overworked since they're responsible for 90% of the cleaning (he fired the cleaning staff recently) but they stay because its the classiest non-chain restaurant in town and the money is ridiculous (with them making more than double minimum wage here).
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The Admiral posted...

pinky0926 posted...

The Admiral posted...

fire_bolt posted...

Oh, I'm not saying its a good practice. I'm saying that the argument that its unfair to servers is dumb.

You're right, that is a dumb argument. Servers typically make far more than they deserve given their training and skill set, and this comes at the expense of the kitchen staff. This is referred to as the front-of-the-house vs. back-of-the-house disparity, and it widens the more expensive the restaurant gets.

At top places, the wait staff make significantly more money than the kitchen staff, despite the chefs in the kitchen having gone to culinary school and usually having loans to repay. There are multiple stories about NYC chefs who apply to become waiters in their own restaurants because the pay is so much better. The kitchen staffs at restaurants also skews heavily minority (Hispanic, specifically), so this ends up creating a stark racial disparity in restaurant pay also.

I'm totally in support of eliminating tips and just instituting a blanket 15% or so increase, so that the kitchen staff can also receive a fair wage. They're much more deserving of it than the wait staff is, IMO.

This is going to be an interesting conversation given fire_bolt is a chef, IIRC.

I didn't know that, but I'm even more curious to hear his response now.

I want to clarify something while we're at it.

Technically, I'm not a chef. I have all the skills and training as a chef from hands-on experience in the industry over the course of a decade. I DO NOT have a culinary arts degree, and this isn't my career path. This is something I do part time while earning my Information Systems degree. For some restaurants, my experience is enough to qualify me for a chef's position. For others, I end up being whatever their highest paid cooking position is (typically grill, which is one position below BOH organizational staff).

EDIT: Further clarification. In this case, a "chef's position" typically means a supervisor position. Not neccesarily management, but overseeing a group of lesser cooks at whatever job they're on. It could be supervising the prep cooks who get everything ready for the day, it could be supervising the line cooks who actually cook and assemble the meals. It also involves making sure food quality is up to par and everything tastes/looks good. Actual management does this too and also has to deal with paperwork
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I have a friend who's a waitress at a pretty nice restaurant. Her usual take home is 150-200 a night. Holidays she gets close to 400-500. She put herself through school while working, had her own 4 bedroom apartment the whole time, and just bought a brand new car when she finished school. And she has like $12000 in the bank.

That's why the only people who want to get rid of tipping are the customers, not servers who are actually good and work at nice places
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Oh, a restaurant that charges twice that of other restaurants of similar quality under the guise of being tip-free. Pass.
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KiwiTerraRizing posted...

I agree, why waitresses and waiters were chosen to get this fucked in this country is beyond me. Of all the professions, why them?

No, you get paid like $2 am hour but maybe people will volunteer to give you more. What the Fuck is that?

You do know the employer has......nvm live in your fantasy land.

itachi15243 posted...

My sister is a waitress and makes like 15+ dollars an hour from tips.

sorry man but she must suck because that's awfully low for a waitress. chicks have it easier too. my buddy was bringing in an average of $23 an hour when he was serving.
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YourAlt posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

http://www.zaziesf.com/dinner-menu.html
This is why you're broke.

Honestly, this place isn't even that expensive, especially considering you will not be tipping on top of the total. I was expecting to see entrees in the 50-100 range.

Not that expensive? I'm not paying $9 for Mac & Cheese. It's probably not even that better than homemade.
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ArtVandelay posted...

itachi15243 posted...

My sister is a waitress and makes like 15+ dollars an hour from tips.

sorry man but she must suck because that's awfully low for a waitress. chicks have it easier too. my buddy was bringing in an average of $23 an hour when he was serving.

Eh, depends on the area. Cost of living in this area is around $10/hr, so servers making $16/hr is ridiculously high
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Yeah those prices arenot bad at all as long as the food is good. I had a $55 steak once and it was amazing. I think our bill for that dinner was like $245 and we only had 2 glasses of champagne each(3 of us)
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Banjo2553 posted...

YourAlt posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

http://www.zaziesf.com/dinner-menu.html
This is why you're broke.

Honestly, this place isn't even that expensive, especially considering you will not be tipping on top of the total. I was expecting to see entrees in the 50-100 range.

Not that expensive? I'm not paying $9 for Mac & Cheese. It's probably not even that better than homemade.

For San Fransico, no, the prices are not outrageous. You also shouldn't make assumptions about the quality of the food when you've never been.
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fenderbender321 posted...

If the servers aren't tipping out the kitchen, well that's pretty rude, IMO. The kitchen workers are their brothers and they have your back and help you out. But I know there's not a lot you can do about that.

Tipping out the kitchen sounds like a bad idea. This could lead to a situation where cooks prefer certain servers over others, at the expense of the guest. Not to mention servers could have expectations of getting more hooked up portions or whatever because the amount they are tipping out, at the expense of the bottom line, and certain cooks could feel compelled to do this.
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fenderbender321 posted...

YourAlt posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

If the servers aren't tipping out the kitchen, well that's pretty rude, IMO. The kitchen workers are their brothers and they have your back and help you out. But I know there's not a lot you can do about that.

Tipping out the kitchen sounds like a bad idea. This could lead to a situation where cooks prefer certain servers over others, at the expense of the guest. Not to mention servers could have expectations of getting more hooked up portions or whatever because the amount they are tipping out, at the expense of the bottom line, and certain cooks could feel compelled to do this.

The way we did it was we just put cash in the tip jar after checking out. That way it was discreet, and even if I was seen putting money in, it was foldes up so theyd never know how much we gave them. My rule was 10% of my tips, or more if they had to rush something because i messed up an order.

Anonymous would make more sense. I could still see instances of servers ordering food for themselves during the shift and asking for a hookup, reminding the cooks how much he/she tipped out. If I was an owner of a restaurant, I would have to ban this practice.
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I wish all resteraunts would follow the practice. Not banning tips per se, but paying their staff min wage.
This entitled tipping culture needs to go. You have people who legit think you cant eat out if you dont want to tip. And yes I do mean think, as they are unaware you dont have to tip for every level of service provided.

fenderbender321 posted...

asdf8562 posted...

I wish all resteraunts would follow the practice. Not banning tips per se, but paying their staff min wage.
This entitled tipping culture needs to go. You have people who legit think you cant eat out if you dont want to tip. And yes I do mean think, as they are unaware you dont have to tip for every level of service provided.

So what kinds of problems is it causing? Servers make good money because of tips, so there's no problem there, even in states where you make less than minimum wage. It's voluntary, so if you don't want to tip, you don't have to. And also, it gives you the opportunity to use discretion on how much you think they deserved. It's a win-win-win system.

I mean, does it really make sense to say that it's better to automatically pay say $30 for a meal knowing that the server is guaranteed to get $5 of it than it is to pay $25 for a meal and leave a $50 tip? The only difference is that one method gives you the option, and the other doesn't.

Actually your post is my problem with the culture. This isnt an attack at you so please dont take it that way, just the tipping culture.

For starters, this may sound harsh to hear but I dont think servers should be paid 20 an hour to begin neither do I think resteraunts should compensate to that much. Just min wage, maybe dollar to three more depending on the establishment and its volume of guest. 20 an hour sounds insane to be an expected wage just because you made that in tips.

Second, while you say "Voluntarily", you and I both know the resteraunt culture nowadays have an entitlement attitude that servers must get tips. You have legit people who think you shouldnt eat out at all if you dont want to tip. You have legit people who think resteraunts should go beyond min wage and compensate for tips. Ya its voluntarily but this culture has turned it into a shameful act to not tip.

Id rather they get paid min wage. Making this culture of entitled tips dissapear. Tipping should be a form of showing gratitude that you loved the service, the service blew your mind. A "wow I got a tip" moment. however this culture has turned it into a not so hidden fee thats expected.

KiwiTerraRizing posted...

No, you get paid like $2 am hour but maybe people will volunteer to give you more. What the Fuck is that?

It was a way for both restaurants and workstaff to use cash-receipts to avoid payroll and income taxes.
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asdf8562 posted...

this may sound harsh to hear but I dont think servers should be paid 20 an hour to begin neither do I think resteraunts should compensate to that much. Just min wage, maybe dollar to three more depending on the establishment and its volume of guest. 20 an hour sounds insane

Doesn't sound insane at all if you want energetic, friendly, educated, and knowledgeable waitstaff who are capable of listing every item on the menu from memory, and can quickly make well-reasoned suggestions, and updates on the quality of the food.
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asdf8562 posted...

Id rather they get paid min wage.

ROFL, why are you trying to impose your unqualified opinion on the free market?
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It's so lame when people not in a specific industry give their opinion on how much someone in that specific industry should be paid.

Nobody cares if you think it's unfair that people are getting paid more than you. Sounds like a personal problem.
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Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

asdf8562 posted...

Id rather they get paid min wage.

ROFL, why are you trying to impose your unqualified opinion on the free market?

Lol to impose. Our opinions cant impose anything. And you know nothing of me to say im unqualified to judge. A server job is not any more difficult than many other customer service oriented job.

asdf8562 posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

asdf8562 posted...

I wish all resteraunts would follow the practice. Not banning tips per se, but paying their staff min wage.
This entitled tipping culture needs to go. You have people who legit think you cant eat out if you dont want to tip. And yes I do mean think, as they are unaware you dont have to tip for every level of service provided.

So what kinds of problems is it causing? Servers make good money because of tips, so there's no problem there, even in states where you make less than minimum wage. It's voluntary, so if you don't want to tip, you don't have to. And also, it gives you the opportunity to use discretion on how much you think they deserved. It's a win-win-win system.

I mean, does it really make sense to say that it's better to automatically pay say $30 for a meal knowing that the server is guaranteed to get $5 of it than it is to pay $25 for a meal and leave a $50 tip? The only difference is that one method gives you the option, and the other doesn't.

Actually your post is my problem with the culture. This isnt an attack at you so please dont take it that way, just the tipping culture.

For starters, this may sound harsh to hear but I dont think servers should be paid 20 an hour to begin neither do I think resteraunts should compensate to that much. Just min wage, maybe dollar to three more depending on the establishment and its volume of guest. 20 an hour sounds insane to be an expected wage just because you made that in tips.

Second, while you say "Voluntarily", you and I both know the resteraunt culture nowadays have an entitlement attitude that servers must get tips. You have legit people who think you shouldnt eat out at all if you dont want to tip. You have legit people who think resteraunts should go beyond min wage and compensate for tips. Ya its voluntarily but this culture has turned it into a shameful act to not tip.

Id rather they get paid min wage. Making this culture of entitled tips dissapear. Tipping should be a form of showing gratitude that you loved the service, the service blew your mind. A "wow I got a tip" moment. however this culture has turned it into a not so hidden fee thats expected.

no one would be a server in a nice, busy place if they were only making min wage. It's NOT an easy job. The good ones would all quit and go somewhere else. Service would go to shit
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RedZaraki posted...

You left the prices off on purpose, huh?
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YourAlt posted...

Nobody cares if you think it's unfair that people are getting paid more than you. Sounds like a personal problem.

And people who advocate that all servers should be paid 20 an hoir soumd entitled. Thinking their job is harder than jobs that paid less. Sounds like a personal problem.

I do actually know about this field just because Im not advocating for it.

asdf8562 posted...

YourAlt posted...

Nobody cares if you think it's unfair that people are getting paid more than you. Sounds like a personal problem.

And people who advocate that all servers should be paid 20 an hoir soumd entitled. Thinking their job is harder than jobs that paid less. Sounds like a personal problem.

I do actually know about this field just because Im not advocating for it.

You missed the point.
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fenderbender321 posted...

I agree with this, but I also agree that not all servers are that great

The point is that, with higher wages, all of the shitty waitstaff will be let go, and it'll be the good ones that get to keep their $20/hour job.
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YourAlt posted...

asdf8562 posted...

YourAlt posted...

Nobody cares if you think it's unfair that people are getting paid more than you. Sounds like a personal problem.

And people who advocate that all servers should be paid 20 an hoir soumd entitled. Thinking their job is harder than jobs that paid less. Sounds like a personal problem.

I do actually know about this field just because Im not advocating for it.

You missed the point.

Your point was crystal clear. Your point however doesnt change my point which you missed.

fenderbender321 posted...

Study after study has shown that people tip not due to social pressure, but because they enjoy it.

Citation needed

Excuse me if it's already been provided.
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asdf8562 posted...

YourAlt posted...

asdf8562 posted...

YourAlt posted...

Nobody cares if you think it's unfair that people are getting paid more than you. Sounds like a personal problem.

And people who advocate that all servers should be paid 20 an hoir soumd entitled. Thinking their job is harder than jobs that paid less. Sounds like a personal problem.

I do actually know about this field just because Im not advocating for it.

You missed the point.

Your point was crystal clear. Your point however doesnt change my point which you missed.

I don't care if you think the servers sound entitled or how hard you perceive their job. They are getting paid their worth if they are making 20+ an hour.
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fenderbender321 posted...

RedZaraki posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

That type of job might work for some servers, but probably half or more of all servers are only wanting to work part time and are looking to just bring in extra cash.

With tips I made about $20 an hour when I was a server. Sometimes more. I doubt restaurants would pay that kind of wage in a non tipping environment, so I certainly wouldn't work for one, so that's at least one damn good server they won't be able to hire

Tipping is voluntary. People are happy to tip their servers. Study after study has shown that people tip not due to social pressure, but because they enjoy it. It's a win win...and if you're poor, you can just tip less and it's not even a problem because people who have more money will make up for it. Not sure why anyone would ever be opposed to a voluntary system such as tipping.

If I knew my waiter was getting $20 an hour in tips already I wouldn't tip at all, ever.

$20 an hour is with wage and tips. I've lived in 2 states that don't have a tipped wage law, though, so I made $8 an hour just in wages. So that equals roughly $12 an hour in tips.

Of course, being a male, I had to earn those tips. I made every guest feel welcome, entertained them a little bit, offered samples, constantly refilled drinks, never kept them waiting for their check or to process a payment, told them they could stay and hang out as long as they want after we closed and not to feel rushed, and always said I was happy to do whatever they asked with a good attitude. I guarantee you that if I had been your server, you'd feel bad if you didn't tip me, even if you knew how much money I was making.

The fact that people don't tip less in states where servers make full minimum wage tells me that customers really don't tip based on the need of the servers. They tip because they want to...because they like it. If people didn't like tipping, I don't see how I could have had a 99.5% rate of being tipped. And the .5% who didn't tip, usually it was because something went wrong (sometimes my fault, sometimes the kitchen, etc) and they didn't have a good experience, and thus it was totally understandable.

When tipping is as ingrained in American and Canadian culture as it is now, people would continue to tip well after restaurants were forced to pay living wages.
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fenderbender321 posted...

asdf8562 posted...

Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

asdf8562 posted...

Id rather they get paid min wage.

ROFL, why are you trying to impose your unqualified opinion on the free market?

Lol to impose. Our opinions cant impose anything. And you know nothing of me to say im unqualified to judge. A server job is not any more difficult than many other customer service oriented job.

So then why does every city in America have so many server positions open if it's such an easy job that makes so much money?

Thats literally case for many low paying jobs in America. Servers, cart boys, cashiers, stockers theres many customer service oriented jobs in america that people find ***ty as a server job.

YourAlt posted...

asdf8562 posted...

YourAlt posted...

asdf8562 posted...

YourAlt posted...

Nobody cares if you think it's unfair that people are getting paid more than you. Sounds like a personal problem.

And people who advocate that all servers should be paid 20 an hoir soumd entitled. Thinking their job is harder than jobs that paid less. Sounds like a personal problem.

I do actually know about this field just because Im not advocating for it.

You missed the point.

Your point was crystal clear. Your point however doesnt change my point which you missed.

I don't care if you think the servers sound entitled or how hard you perceive their job. They are getting paid their worth if they are making 20+ an hour.

Like how i dont care if you think you are worth 20 an hour? If they were getting paid what they were so called worth than 2 an hour wouldnt be a thing in the first place. Resteraunts clearly dont think they are worth 20 an hour. Resteraunts instead pay what they think they are worth and hope customers make the difference which in many servers cases, is not even min wage.

Your point doesnt change mine.

Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

I agree with this, but I also agree that not all servers are that great

The point is that, with higher wages, all of the shitty waitstaff will be let go, and it'll be the good ones that get to keep their $20/hour job.

The same is true of tipping. Especially so in jurisdictions that mandate the employer make up the difference if wages plus tips doesn't come out to at least the real minimum wage.

Someone not pulling in enough tips will likely either quit, or be fired anyway.

Because it doesn't exist and you have a shitty memory
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Honestly as long as the food tastes good im fine with paying more if i dont have to tip.
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fenderbender321 posted...

IfGodCouldDie posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

Study after study has shown that people tip not due to social pressure, but because they enjoy it.

Citation needed

Excuse me if it's already been provided.

This always happens to me. I'll read a study about something somewhere on the internet, and then bring it up a few weeks later, then somebody asks for a citation, and I can't find it anymore.

Here you go:
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/06/24/137346289/why-we-tip

asdf8562 posted...

YourAlt posted...

asdf8562 posted...

YourAlt posted...

asdf8562 posted...

YourAlt posted...

Nobody cares if you think it's unfair that people are getting paid more than you. Sounds like a personal problem.

And people who advocate that all servers should be paid 20 an hoir soumd entitled. Thinking their job is harder than jobs that paid less. Sounds like a personal problem.

I do actually know about this field just because Im not advocating for it.

You missed the point.

Your point was crystal clear. Your point however doesnt change my point which you missed.

I don't care if you think the servers sound entitled or how hard you perceive their job. They are getting paid their worth if they are making 20+ an hour.

Like how i dont care if you think you are worth 20 an hour? If they were getting paid what they were so called worth than 2 an hour wouldnt be a thing in the first place. Resteraunts clearly dont think they are worth 20 an hour. Resteraunts instead pay what they think they are worth and hope customers make the difference which in many servers cases, is not even min wage.

Your point doesnt change mine.

I didn't say i *think* they are worth 20 an hour, I said they absolutely are if that is what they are making.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

IfGodCouldDie posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

Study after study has shown that people tip not due to social pressure, but because they enjoy it.

Citation needed

Excuse me if it's already been provided.

This always happens to me. I'll read a study about something somewhere on the internet, and then bring it up a few weeks later, then somebody asks for a citation, and I can't find it anymore.

Here you go:
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/06/24/137346289/why-we-tip

Guilt tripping people into tipping is social pressure.

lilORANG posted...

All restaurants should serve mac n cheese and chicken nuggets for the picky folk

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fenderbender321 posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

IfGodCouldDie posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

Study after study has shown that people tip not due to social pressure, but because they enjoy it.

Citation needed

Excuse me if it's already been provided.

This always happens to me. I'll read a study about something somewhere on the internet, and then bring it up a few weeks later, then somebody asks for a citation, and I can't find it anymore.

Here you go:
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/06/24/137346289/why-we-tip

Thanks. He does mention showing off several times. Not sure if that was the one I had read, though.

What I found interesting in doing Google searches for this was how many "why you should stop tipping" articles came out in 2014, and only in 2014. I wonder what happened in 2014 that sparked the discussion.

It's also interesting to see so many articles about why you shouldn't tip, along with comments in them with so many people agreeing to it, and then people on CE saying tipping shouldn't be a thing, yet when I was a server literally 99.9% of people tipped. So I have to wonder how much of this internet anti-tipping crowd is just people trying to rustle our jimmies or people who simply can't afford to eat at a restaurant and therefore don't, but decide they should have an opinion on tipping anyway.

Iirc, that's when 'Fight for Fifteen' started.
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