Poll of the Day > do movies and game having bittersweet ending bother you?

(+) Yeah! (+)

often where main character wins/loses but at a cost to him or herself the world and others.
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For movies I can accept it but I hate it in games. Games I identify more with the hero and I want an outright good handing that favors the hero. My most hated ending is Mafia 2.

If they're well-written, no.

But far too many people seem to act like "bittersweet" or "unhappy" endings are somehow more inherently "art", and thus above all criticism, and that anyone who disapproves of such an ending (even if for reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not it was "happy") is basically a philistine that can't accept anything but happy sunshine and rainbows.

It's why I used to get annoyed at the people who tried to defend Mass Effect 3's ending by shitting on anyone who criticized it and strawmanning them all into not liking it because it wasn't happily ever after, when the vast majority of complaints were actually because of piss-poor writing and presentation.

Meanwhile, Dragon Age: Origins has multiple ending possibilities that span from about as happy as dark fantasy can get to downright depressing, and my favorite run of all time is the one where my romance tragically ended in spite of the fact that both me and my partner still desperately loved each other, and then I went on and died in the end (and worst of all, made an orphan out of my poor dog!).

(But conversely, Dragon Age: Inquisition - and it's DLC - mostly feels like it's trying to present as shitty an ending outcome as possible, solely for the sake of it - and to set things up for the inevitable sequel - which in turn makes ITS darker ending feel much weaker in comparison.)

A well-written ending should reflect the logical conclusion of the story as a sequence of events leading up to an inevitable climax, whether that means being happy or unhappy. An unhappy ending tacked on just to be pretentious is equally as bad (if not more so) than a happy ending tacked on just to be schmaltzy.


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i think shadow hearts 1&2 did bittersweet stuff right even made me feel sad

that game desensitised me to any other game or movie that takes the bittersweet option
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I don't have a issue with it.
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Not particularly. It really depends on how they go about it.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

It's why I used to get annoyed at the people who tried to defend Mass Effect 3's ending by s***ting on anyone who criticized it and strawmanning them all into not liking it because it wasn't happily ever after, when the vast majority of complaints were actually because of piss-poor writing and presentation.

I defend ME3 as a great game. But the ending still sucked, just not enough that I didn't greatly enjoy the rest of the game.
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BlazeAndBlade posted...

i think shadow hearts 1&2 did bittersweet stuff right even made me feel sad

that game desensitised me to any other game or movie that takes the bittersweet option

To be far, those games DID technically have "happy" endings. They just weren't the canon endings that carried on into the next game.

Shadow Hearts (and Koudelka before it) might be the only franchise where the "bad" ending is always the official canon ending, because the people at Sacnoth apparently hate joy.



Mario_VS_DK posted...

I defend ME3 as a great game. But the ending still sucked, just not enough that I didn't greatly enjoy the rest of the game.

It was a relatively uneven game. There was some great stuff in there, but it also had its flaws, and there were definitely parts where the narrative starts to have problems long before the dick-punch that is the ending.

The real problem is that the ending itself is SO bad, it not only retroactively ruins most of the game that comes before it, but reaches back in time to kind of shit on the first two games as well.

I've never really had a problem going back and playing ME3 again (or doing an ME1-3 full run), but at the same time I absolutely understand people who say they basically can't play ME3 - or any of the games - any more because they know how ME3 ends and it basically ruins the entire experience. No matter how many people want to scream about how it's the journey not the destination, the ending to a given story being total crap can absolutely ruin the entire story leading up to it.


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I think that films without an element of tragedy in their endings are automatically worse as a result.

Yes and no. Story that always end in a happy manner might not make sense depending on the setting. Take the movie Snowpiercer for example. With the way it ends, the fate of some characters are left open but they were still left in a pretty grim situation. They escape one danger only to be faced with another one.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

The real problem is that the ending itself is SO bad, it not only retroactively ruins most of the game that comes before it, but reaches back in time to kind of s*** on the first two games as well.

See, I just hate that opinion. Stories are about the journey and not the destination.
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Only because they're rarely done well.
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Not most of the time.
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Not if they are done properly, no.

But I guess that goes with anything.

If it's well-written and makes sense for the story, I enjoy it.

If, for instance, characters start dropping dead for no logical reason near the end of a thing, it makes me want to throw the book/game/whatever across the room. It's too late in the story for it to have any long-lasting impact on the narrative or surviving characters, which makes it just a cheap, lazy way to make the audience emotional. That kind of bittersweet ending can kindly fuck off.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

It's why I used to get annoyed at the people who tried to defend Mass Effect 3's ending

There is no way anyone seriously tried to defend that ending. I refuse to believe you.

No I sometimes even prefer it. People nowadays seem to demand a happy ending. Well at least with books. I know a few writers who had so many email written by young adults saying they hated the not so happy ending they wrote new books with the demanded happy endings. Sorry mummy and daddy made you think you will get everything you want but you'll soon find out real life is not like that.
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No I love bittersweet chocolate
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If it is done well, then I actually prefer the bittersweet endings.
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Mario_VS_DK posted...

See, I just hate that opinion. Stories are about the journey and not the destination.

No.

If you go to a restaurant and eat a delicious meal, but are then served a steaming bowl of human feces for dessert and are forced to eat it, you are not going to fondly remember that meal. You are not going to go back to that restaurant. You are not going to separate those two things in your mind, and go "Well, the main course was great, but the dessert was terrible." Your overall impression of the entire experience is going to be negative (and quite likely strongly so).

If you have a wonderful Christmas, filled with great gifts, including a new pet puppy, but the night ends with your father getting drunk, breaking most of your new toys, and beating the puppy to death, you are going to be traumatized as fuck. You aren't going to fondly remember the first few hours when you enjoyed playing with your toys or the warm fuzzy feeling you got from the cute little dog, you're going to spend the rest of your life trying to block that entire day out of your memory, and hating everything about it.

If you have a wonderful road trip that lasts a couple days, but at the end of the journey you are dragged into an alley and gangraped into a coma by a dozen strangers who beat the living shit out of you, you NOT going to have fond memories of that trip. You are NOT going to justify it to yourself later as "Well, sure, the ending sucked, but everything up to that point was just awesome." You are NOT going to be able to disconnect how things went in the first part of your trip from how it ended. For the rest of your life, you are going to have a very negative memory of that entire trip.

No matter how many people love to parrot the idea that "it's about the journey and not the destination", it has literally never been true, nor will it ever be - because human brains absolutely do not work that way. We're always looking at the more interconnected holistic view of things, and one terrible event or experience can absolutely ruin any number of things connected to it.

In narrative terms, a story is a single interconnected system, from the moment it begins to the moment it ends. Regardless of whether we're talking about a book, a TV show, a movie, or a game, any given part of the whole being bad drags down the entire gestalt.

And like it or not, endings are generally the most potent part of any given story, because it's the last thing you remember, and the part that is supposed to be a fitting conclusion and wrap-up of all the elements that have gone before. A terrible ending is far worse for the overall product than a weak beginning or a bad middle tend to be. Both in entertainment AND in life, how something ends is often far more significant than any other part of the experience.

Even in stories which are plot-light, such as character-driven pieces or mood pieces, the ending still needs to FIT the story, and not annoy or anger the person reading/watching/playing. No matter how loose the narrative is, or how much the intention of the author is for the audience to enjoy the build-up without focusing overmuch on the conclusion, a bad-enough ending is still going to undermine what comes before (as people like David Lynch and the creators of Lost have learned to their sorrow).

The only real question when it comes to ME3 - and the only real valid point of debate - is just HOW bad the ending is. For many people, the ending is more than bad enough to retroactively ruin every single thing that comes before. For some, the ending is bad enough to ruin ME3, but not so bad that it taints the entire franchise. And for some, the ending was not bad enough to even ruin ME3, while others would argue that the ending was even entirely acceptable (but those people are wrong, and should feel bad).


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Depends.

My problem is usually when the ending seems to be trying to be bittersweet on purpose just because the writer thought it would be more impact than a standard happy ending, even if it didn't have to be that way.
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This.

I don't mind at all, if it doesn't seem forced. A quick one that comes to mind is Mega Man X. Zero dies, but he just comes back again in sequel after sequel, so it has...zero impact.

Mother 3, on the other hand, is just fucking heartbreaking...in a good way.

Depends on the ending. A dead love interest usually bothers me. Of course, there are obvious exceptions, like Amazing Spider-Man 2 where that tied into the comics although, quite honestly, the handling of that thereafter was a bit rough.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

But far too many people seem to act like "bittersweet" or "unhappy" endings are somehow more inherently "art", and thus above all criticism, and that anyone who disapproves of such an ending (even if for reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not it was "happy") is basically a philistine that can't accept anything but happy sunshine and rainbows.

Which also contributes to the annoying trend of things trying to go for a bittersweet or unhappy ending for the appearance of art.

Mario_VS_DK posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

The real problem is that the ending itself is SO bad, it not only retroactively ruins most of the game that comes before it, but reaches back in time to kind of s*** on the first two games as well.

See, I just hate that opinion. Stories are about the journey and not the destination.

Destinations matter. You might have a great train ride, but if it was on the way to a Soviet Gulag, that wasn't a great trip.

DarkKirby2500 posted...

Depends.

My problem is usually when the ending seems to be trying to be bittersweet on purpose just because the writer thought it would be more impact than a standard happy ending, even if it didn't have to be that way.

Ditto.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

A well-written ending should reflect the logical conclusion of the story as a sequence of events leading up to an inevitable climax, whether that means being happy or unhappy. An unhappy ending tacked on just to be pretentious is equally as bad (if not more so) than a happy ending tacked on just to be schmaltzy.

I used to be of the group that thought 'unhappy' endings were more artful in some way, but I've since changed my tune. Now I'm like, desperate for endings that seem to be genuinely happy (outside of kids movies).

Maybe it was because back then, life was good and I had very few issues so I yearned for the bad. Now that things seem shit wall to wall, I want my happy endings back.

Gotta find me a new massage parlor.
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No, why would they?
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