Board 8 > It's been 20 years since the Montreal Screwjob. Who was right? Bret or Vince?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah I think the idea that Bret was still under contract for 4 more weeks gets lost a lot
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Vince screwed Bret. Bret proved his loyalty by taking a worse contract to stay with Vince. He offered to drop the belt to anybody but Shawn on RAW.

If you believe Bret's take on the matter, he said he respected Shawn and wouldn't have an issue dropping the belt to him with Shawn turning around and telling him "I wouldn't do the same for you" which caused Bret to refuse to job for Shawn.
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Recall that Shawn ducked out on jobbing to Bret at WM13 by losing his smile
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Vince Russo didn't kill WCW

Hell Vince Russo made WCW better. Am I the only one who watched WCW in late 1998, early 1999? It was shit.
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Lopen posted...

Hell Vince Russo made WCW better. Am I the only one who watched WCW in late 1998, early 1999? It was s***.

This is actually kind of true. It was certainly more interesting.

But in his second run there he really lost his touch. John Laurinitiss run as booker post-Russo until the death of the company was the best WCW since 97
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Big Johnny.

God I miss him.
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Lopen posted...

Vince Russo didn't kill WCW

Hell Vince Russo made WCW better. Am I the only one who watched WCW in late 1998, early 1999? It was shit.

Better and not as boring are not synonymous....

WCW 2000 is bloody amazing. As is late 99. None of these are cause it was a good show. Now it was not remotely boring, literally ANYTHING (and in this case this is not an exaggeration) could happen. But it was a bad bad show.

Also... yes. He did kill WCW. He had a ton of help. He also more or less cost them 62 million dollars in one year.

Vinny Ru definitely had an enormous hand in killing the company
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Wedge Antilles posted...

If you believe Bret's take on the matter, he said he respected Shawn and wouldn't have an issue dropping the belt to him with Shawn turning around and telling him "I wouldn't do the same for you" which caused Bret to refuse to job for Shawn.

Yeah, I mean Bret put him over clean at WM 18 months earlier. He was willing to play ball before Shawn became even worse to work with.
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I'm not exactly a fan of Vince Russo in WCW. But I think it really gets swept under the rug how bad WCW programming was well before he came in. Like they just had no idea what they were doing. Just because their booking wasn't as ridiculous on its face as Russo's was doesn't mean they were booking anything resembling a good wrestling show.

You just had so much stupid stuff going on in 1998-1999 WCW. Goldberg won the title and was hardly mentioned for weeks. Shows where you have walls of jobber matches for the first hour. Feuds around a battle of music with The West Texas Rednecks, The Filthy Animals, and The Kiss Demon.

I'll take insanity over watching the paint dry any day. And hey, being topical, at least Russo made Bret Hart main event relevant instead of pointless midcard feuds with El Dandy, Hypnosis, and Dean Malenko all day.

Economically too. WCW paid Warrior MILLIONS to... have two months of a cringeworthy feud with Hogan and then disappear. WCW paid what like, Lanny Poffo... millions over the years to... never show up on TV.

WCW may have posted record losses from Vince Russo, but that's just the effects of a shitty show coming to roost and people no longer watching your show after it's been garbage for 2 years running. It's not like Vince Russo signed all those plump contracts for people sitting at home that were draining WCW dry
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Lopen posted...

I'm not exactly a fan of Vince Russo in WCW. But I think it really gets swept under the rug how bad WCW programming was well before he came in. Like they just had no idea what they were doing. Just because their booking wasn't as ridiculous on its face as Russo's was doesn't mean they were booking anything resembling a good wrestling show.

You just had so much stupid stuff going on in 1998-1999 WCW. Goldberg won the title and was hardly mentioned for weeks. Shows where you have walls of jobber matches for the first hour. Feuds around a battle of music with The West Texas Rednecks, The Filthy Animals, and The Kiss Demon.

I'll take insanity over watching the paint dry any day. And hey, being topical, at least Russo made Bret Hart main event relevant instead of pointless midcard feuds with El Dandy, Hypnosis, and Dean Malenko all day.

Economically too. WCW paid Warrior MILLIONS to... have two months of a cringeworthy feud with Hogan and then disappear. WCW paid what like, Lanny Poffo... millions over the years to... never show up on TV.

WCW may have posted record losses from Vince Russo, but that's just the effects of a shitty show coming to roost and people no longer watching your show after it's been garbage for 2 years running. It's not like Vince Russo signed all those plump contracts for people sitting at home that were draining WCW dry

WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO DOUBT EL DANDY!!!!!????!
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The reason they lost 62 million is because they weren't making money anymore to offset those contracts. They weren't making money cause Russo buried the stars so they weren't stars anymore and didn't sell merch. Changed the belt on TV a thousand times so why would you buy a PPV, and in doing that buried the belt below the WWF European Title, so why even go to a taping?

So no merch
No gate
No ppv.

No company..... RUSSO
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i went to school with bret's niece and nephew

i don't know what happened to them
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I mean WCW was already a sinking ship by the time Russo got there is what I'm saying. It just hadn't taken much water yet so there's an illusion he's the one who lost the money, but the thing is with a bad product, people aren't instantly changing their channel. It's kind of an attrition thing. The effects of what Russo was doing weren't really tanking the funds or viewership-- the lingering effects of bad decision after bad decision in the past two years were.

Really I'd say the only terrible thing Russo did was have WCW take two weeks off when he took over. That was just a terrible idea to give people who were dissatisfied with the product an easy out and probably was the biggest hand he personally had in causing the company to lose money.
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Lopen posted...

Really I'd say the only terrible thing Russo did was have WCW take two weeks off when he took over.

What about booking himself to beat Booker T by fluke to win the World Title, then vacating it and having Booker T win it from vacancy by finding the right box?
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Lopen posted...

I mean WCW was already a sinking ship by the time Russo got there is what I'm saying. It just hadn't taken much water yet so there's an illusion he's the one who lost the money, but the thing is with a bad product, people aren't instantly changing their channel. It's kind of an attrition thing. The effects of what Russo was doing weren't really tanking the funds or viewership-- the lingering effects of bad decision after bad decision in the past two years were.

Really I'd say the only terrible thing Russo did was have WCW take two weeks off when he took over. That was just a terrible idea to give people who were dissatisfied with the product an easy out and probably was the biggest hand he personally had in causing the company to lose money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9sqTLR16-I

Look. I know it's a work... and I know the belt is TECHNICALLY a prop. But my god it's an important prop. If you want to know how important, this topic is about the Screwjob, because Vince felt if his Champion left unpinned the belt would mean nothing. And that's would have been his death. The devaluing (one time mind you) of a prop.

That Title almost changed hands once every 2 weeks that year. And that is ALL on Russo. Yes putting it on Arquette is easy enough to attack, and putting it on himself was insane....but it's the other 23 that killed it and by extension the company forever. Yes WCW was a sinking ship by that time, but it probably could have floated for a while as it was slowly taking on water. Russo decided to set fire to it as well.
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FFDragon posted...

CoffeeNinjaB8 posted...

"When your promoter asks you to do the job, that's the end of it"

having creative control is literally the opposite of "the end of it" though

that's what creative control is

I mean, duh. How can anyone even argue otherwise??
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*financially speaking, relative to 1998 to 1999 WCW

The actual booking he did of course was very hit or miss. Would still take it over 1998 to 1999 WCW overall, but yeah, very hit or miss. (Mostly miss)
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Chaeix posted...

i went to school with bret's niece and nephew

i don't know what happened to them

Elaborate, he has a fuckton of them. Which ones?
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