Current Events > Did anyone see the full video of the Daniel Shaver killing.

(+) Yeah! (+)

And Yes, he acted horrible unprofessional, but that's not illegal and it isnt murder. Murder was the wrong charge and it's right that he was acquitted of it.

This is the crux. It should not be so.
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It takes very little time for a skilled handgun shooter to unholster and unload. In addition the cop had reports that the suspect was armed.
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_RETS_ posted...

That reasonable assumption alone would make it not cold blooded murder.

his negligent and careless actions lead to the death of another human being. if that doesn't qualify as "murder" because of a technicality and that's the entire point you're trying to make, then alright, sure, that's fair.

going by these definitions here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)#Degrees

i would consider what the cop did voluntary manslaughter, or 3rd degree murder, but not 2nd. and since this case was strictly about 2nd degree murder and no other charges, given the above information i take back my previous assertion that he should have been guilty. however, i do stand by my point that he is not totally innocent and the fact that he's walking away from this without punishment makes me sick.

again, if your entire point is that this should have been charged differently, then that's fair and i misunderstood.
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DragonGirlYuki posted...

It takes very little time for a skilled handgun shooter to unholster and unload. In addition the cop had reports that the suspect was armed.

it also takes very little time to check the guy for weapons or to handcuff him. why couldn't one of the cops slowly move towards the guy to frisk and detain him while the other stood guard? from the very start the cops handled the situation like complete shit.
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DragonGirlYuki posted...

It takes very little time for a skilled handgun shooter to unholster and unload. In addition the cop had reports that the suspect was armed.

When you apply this to every time a cop unloads on a citizen, it loses its meaning.

People are right to be infuriated over the lack of accountability for shit like this. Nobody reasonable thinks there's no situation where a cop should use deadly force. Yet, every time a cop uses deadly force unnecessarily, the reaction is to deflect. It's unfathomable and society shouldn't have to put up with it.

again, if your entire point is that this should have been charged differently, then that's fair and i misunderstood.

He was acquitted of murder and manslaughter. Same trial, separate charges.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

DragonGirlYuki posted...

It takes very little time for a skilled handgun shooter to unholster and unload. In addition the cop had reports that the suspect was armed.

it also takes very little time to check the guy for weapons or to handcuff him. why couldn't one of the cops slowly move towards the guy to frisk and detain him while the other stood guard? from the very start the cops handled the situation like complete shit.

I acknowledge and agree with your other post, but I am quoting this one to reiterate why it wouldn't be best to approach him if he was still in front of his room's door.

I'm not sure if he even was, but you can't immediately jump to the order to crawl being absurd.

_RETS_ posted...

The guy was doing just fine crawling. He acknowledged that he understood the order and complied. Then he reached for his waistband. The cop has no way of knowing if he was pulling up his pants, reaching for a gun, whatever. But given the situation, it is more reasonable to assume the latter and you have to make a split second decision.

The cop should have never been charged with murder.

He wasn't doing just find crawling. He messed up before he even started crawling. Tell me do you think it is common for cops to tell people to crawl . Moreover you know there was more than one cop there. If he was scared of someone else being there he could have kept the gun aimed at the guy and waited for backup.
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cjsdowg posted...

_RETS_ posted...

The guy was doing just fine crawling. He acknowledged that he understood the order and complied. Then he reached for his waistband. The cop has no way of knowing if he was pulling up his pants, reaching for a gun, whatever. But given the situation, it is more reasonable to assume the latter and you have to make a split second decision.

The cop should have never been charged with murder.

He wasn't doing just find crawling. He messed up before he even started crawling. Tell me do you think it is common for cops to tell people to crawl . Moreover you know there was more than one cop there. If he was scared of someone else being there he could have kept the gun aimed at the guy and waited for backup.

I dont know, I imagine it depends on the situation. Had he crawled like he was the whole time he would be alive. He reached for his waistband and is not alive.

this is a clear cut case of a good, honest police that just indulged a bit too much in his fantasy of subduing and controlling a human target. he dreams of patrolling in Syria, taking out civilians and claiming they're ISIS combatants, but he's stuck at home in bumfuck Arizona because he's not cut out for the military. let the man enjoy his trophy kill and go about his life, god

_RETS_ posted...

I dont know, I imagine it depends on the situation. Had he crawled like he was the whole time he would be alive. He reached for his waistband and is not alive.

He did something that people normally do when their pants are falling, something that is very innocuous. But somehow this is used as a get out of jail free card for when cops blast unarmed people. The cop had the did on the ground hands where he could see them , feet crossed, and he had backup. HE could have easily cuffed him then. HE gave a common that is almost never spoken by cops .
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cjsdowg posted...

_RETS_ posted...

I dont know, I imagine it depends on the situation. Had he crawled like he was the whole time he would be alive. He reached for his waistband and is not alive.

He did something that people normally do when their pants are falling, something that is very innocuous. But somehow this is used as a get out of jail free card for when cops blast unarmed people. The cop had the did on the ground hands where he could see them , feet crossed, and he had backup. HE could have easily cuffed him then. HE gave a common that is almost never spoken by cops .

A suspect credibly believed to be armed rapidly reaches for his waistband.

That is literally all you need to know to clearly know this wasn't cold blooded murder.

_RETS_ posted...

cjsdowg posted...

_RETS_ posted...

I dont know, I imagine it depends on the situation. Had he crawled like he was the whole time he would be alive. He reached for his waistband and is not alive.

He did something that people normally do when their pants are falling, something that is very innocuous. But somehow this is used as a get out of jail free card for when cops blast unarmed people. The cop had the did on the ground hands where he could see them , feet crossed, and he had backup. HE could have easily cuffed him then. HE gave a common that is almost never spoken by cops .

A suspect credibly believed to be armed rapidly reaches for his waistband.

That is literally all you need to know to clearly know this wasn't cold blooded murder.

You've said that the outcome was horrible and that the cop was unprofessional. I say he was at best acting against his own interest if that was safety, and at worst setting up an innocent man to be executed.

What would you suggest to avoid this, since under the current landscape no one can be held accountable for this?
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treewojima posted...

this is a clear cut case of a good, honest police that just indulged a bit too much in his fantasy of subduing and controlling a human target. he dreams of patrolling in Syria, taking out civilians and claiming they're ISIS combatants, but he's stuck at home in bumfuck Arizona because he's not cut out for the military. let the man enjoy his trophy kill and go about his life, god

I'm sorry, what?
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Kitt posted...

treewojima posted...

this is a clear cut case of a good, honest police that just indulged a bit too much in his fantasy of subduing and controlling a human target. he dreams of patrolling in Syria, taking out civilians and claiming they're ISIS combatants, but he's stuck at home in bumfuck Arizona because he's not cut out for the military. let the man enjoy his trophy kill and go about his life, god

I'm sorry, what?

He's making fun of a guy who clearly became a cop because of some power fantasies. Except it's actually right.
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berlyman101 posted...

_RETS_ posted...

cjsdowg posted...

_RETS_ posted...

I dont know, I imagine it depends on the situation. Had he crawled like he was the whole time he would be alive. He reached for his waistband and is not alive.

He did something that people normally do when their pants are falling, something that is very innocuous. But somehow this is used as a get out of jail free card for when cops blast unarmed people. The cop had the did on the ground hands where he could see them , feet crossed, and he had backup. HE could have easily cuffed him then. HE gave a common that is almost never spoken by cops .

A suspect credibly believed to be armed rapidly reaches for his waistband.

That is literally all you need to know to clearly know this wasn't cold blooded murder.

You've said that the outcome was horrible and that the cop was unprofessional. I say he was at best acting against his own interest if that was safety, and at worst setting up an innocent man to be executed.

What would you suggest to avoid this, since under the current landscape no one can be held accountable for this?

Not overcharging is one thing. Murder should have never been on the table.

But in the situations, clearer and more level headed instructions sure, but again unprofessional behavior isn't illegal.

On the suspect/victim's end, no matter What, not making any sudden movements, especially toward your waistband.

Holy shit is this how pigs are trained in the US?

Literally asking a suspect to crawl if they need to approach you
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But in the situations, clearer and more level headed instructions sure, but again unprofessional behavior isn't illegal.

It needs to be held to a much higher standard than what we see in this case and across the country. Do you think it's ok that innocent people get killed and it's sanctioned? In any other situation reckless behavior resulting in death is manslaughter, which he was charged with and acquitted.
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It's also known that the cop had an assault rifle with the words "you're fucked" engraved on the receiver... Protect and serve indeed.
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Why didn't fire a warning shot?
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berlyman101 posted...

But in the situations, clearer and more level headed instructions sure, but again unprofessional behavior isn't illegal.

It needs to be held to a much higher standard than what we see in this case and across the country. Do you think it's ok that innocent people get killed and it's sanctioned? In any other situation reckless behavior resulting in death is manslaughter, which he was charged with and acquitted.

My points are against people saying it is cold blooded murder and pretending to be outraged. It isnt.

_OujiDoza_ posted...

It's also known that the cop had an assault rifle with the words "you're fucked" engraved on the receiver... Protect and serve indeed.

Entirely irrelevant. Criminals should feel like they are fucked when they go against police. Not like he engraved it for this guy specifically.

_RETS_ posted...

berlyman101 posted...

But in the situations, clearer and more level headed instructions sure, but again unprofessional behavior isn't illegal.

It needs to be held to a much higher standard than what we see in this case and across the country. Do you think it's ok that innocent people get killed and it's sanctioned? In any other situation reckless behavior resulting in death is manslaughter, which he was charged with and acquitted.

My points are against people saying it is cold blooded murder and pretending to be outraged. It isnt.

Wow you really are fighting the good fight here.
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TommyG663513 posted...

_RETS_ posted...

berlyman101 posted...

But in the situations, clearer and more level headed instructions sure, but again unprofessional behavior isn't illegal.

It needs to be held to a much higher standard than what we see in this case and across the country. Do you think it's ok that innocent people get killed and it's sanctioned? In any other situation reckless behavior resulting in death is manslaughter, which he was charged with and acquitted.

My points are against people saying it is cold blooded murder and pretending to be outraged. It isnt.

Wow you really are fighting the good fight here.

Dishonesty, misrepresentation, and fake outrage should be called out

This jackass was the problem not the two drunk kids who are clearly non threats, this "cop" was just looking for a reason to kill and got away with it.

This asshole should be frying in the electric chair for murdering this unarmed drunk scared shitless kid.

If this was a gang member, biker, or know violent felon then the tone would be right but these were two drunk and scared kids who were clearly compliant and not looking to resist or cause trouble. A person acting this hostile to non threats should not be wearing a badge cause it's fucking crystal clear he does not know how to handle different situations nor how to give clear instructions to someone who looks, acts, and likely is drunk.

If this "cop" was at my job the commissioner would have thrown his ass in lock up and made sure he lost his badge, we have actual violent people where I work many days yet we handle them the right way by desculating the situation, they calm down, and comply 95% of the time.
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When first watching the video my gut reaction was,"Fuck this cop. How is he not on death row?" Now learning that they were responding to someone armed, a lot of that is still there, but his training failed him because his verbal commands were not helping to diffuse a situation at all. Just an ugly situation overall and probably could have been avoided.

@tote_all

If this cop was not acting so hostile, telling the boy to "shut up" when the kid is trying to ask for clarification and the "cop" threatening to kill him for any mistake made you MIGHT have a point.

This guy was giving piss poor instructions, conflicting instructions, assessed the situation 100% WRONG and ended up murdering and unarmed kid who was terrified.
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Offworlder1 posted...

@tote_all

If this cop was not acting so hostile, telling the boy to "shut up" when the kid is trying to ask for clarification and the "cop" threatening to kill him for any mistake made you MIGHT have a point.

This guy was giving piss poor instructions, conflicting instructions, assessed the situation 100% WRONG and ended up murdering and unarmed kid who was terrified.

All of that is irrelevant. He understood the command to crawl, complied, then reached for his waist. 10/10 times this gets acquitted on those grounds alone.

_RETS_ posted...

TommyG663513 posted...

_RETS_ posted...

berlyman101 posted...

But in the situations, clearer and more level headed instructions sure, but again unprofessional behavior isn't illegal.

It needs to be held to a much higher standard than what we see in this case and across the country. Do you think it's ok that innocent people get killed and it's sanctioned? In any other situation reckless behavior resulting in death is manslaughter, which he was charged with and acquitted.

My points are against people saying it is cold blooded murder and pretending to be outraged. It isnt.

Wow you really are fighting the good fight here.

Dishonesty, misrepresentation, and fake outrage should be called out

I think people are honestly representing their outrage and you're projecting. I was legitimately angered, unsettled, and dismayed while watching this, just as I was when I watched several other defenseless people get gunned down. I don't know how you can be so daft.
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I wouldn't have convicted him of murder. Manslaughter sure. That man's life was in that cops hands, and the officer did a horrible job of protecting him (which is his duty) and it's his fault the man died. People forget that cops aren't there to save their own lives, they're supposed to be putting their lives on the line to protect us. And "us" includes criminals or suspects being arrested/detained. Don't like it? Don't sign up for the job. This was bad, not as bad as Philando Castile, but close.

Cops need better training, because while almost all of them are good people, the vast majority are not qualified to handle situations like these. Instead they end up like this cop, barking confusing orders at a terrified man and executing him when he makes the smallest of mistakes. It's proof he'd rather just pull the trigger cuz then his life is safe and he doesn't need to risk his own safety for that of a stranger, despite that being his job.
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Well as an armed guard who deals with similar shit daily I can tell you the cop was completely wrong in what he did, how he handled it, and the fucking FAILURE to recognize a drunk kid who is confused and even tried to ask for clarification.

There is no justifying this murder, there were other cops who easily could have walked over and arrested him once he was on the ground with his hands on his head. They had a man looking for threats so there was no danger as long as a person covers them which the nutcase with the rifle could have done.

It's also clear how confused this scared kid is which a person with a hidden gun does not act like, a person with a weapon of any kind is much calmer as they are waiting for that moment to strike. A dude at the courthouse had a knife looking to carve up his ex with a protection order, he complied to a point but he was calm as hell and gave off the vibe he was going to try something. When he did you could see he waited for the "right moment" but we took his ass down, I nearly broke his arm and told him I would before he dropped the knife seeing he was in a losing situation.

If I was like this hostile asshole I could have easily twisted his arm and shoved the blade into his neck, gut or arm but cause I am a sane person I disarmed him without escalating the situation or using more violence then needed. Note I am a armed guard who was up close cause I saw a way to take him down without pulling my gun as were the other police there.

@tote_all
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berlyman101 posted...

_RETS_ posted...

TommyG663513 posted...

_RETS_ posted...

berlyman101 posted...

But in the situations, clearer and more level headed instructions sure, but again unprofessional behavior isn't illegal.

It needs to be held to a much higher standard than what we see in this case and across the country. Do you think it's ok that innocent people get killed and it's sanctioned? In any other situation reckless behavior resulting in death is manslaughter, which he was charged with and acquitted.

My points are against people saying it is cold blooded murder and pretending to be outraged. It isnt.

Wow you really are fighting the good fight here.

Dishonesty, misrepresentation, and fake outrage should be called out

I think people are honestly representing their outrage and you're projecting. I was legitimately angered, unsettled, and dismayed while watching this, just as I was when I watched several other defenseless people get gunned down. I don't know how you can be so daft.

That's all great, but it doesn't make it murder.

It is murder, the fact you can't understand that speaks to how blind you are, the kid was an unarmed drunk facing a nutcase with a gun pointed at him looking for any reason to kill.

@_RETS_
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If the court system fails, then I hope a brave citizen comes forward and deals the justice that should have happened here.
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Offworlder1 posted...

It is murder, the fact you can't understand that speaks to how blind you are, the kid was an unarmed drunk facing a nutcase with a gun pointed at him looking for any reason to kill.

@_RETS_

Well technically it isn't murder, but it obviously should be. Cops are given way too much leeway in the law as is. It's like the law and their training has us risking our lives to.protect the cops.

Someone brought up a great point about rules of engagement, how is it that soldiers are supposed to be more disciplined when fighting an enemy than a public servant is with the actual public?
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@tote_all

When your an armed guard, police officer, soldier, or doing any kind of dangerous job you know that any day could be your last, you took that job knowing how dangerous it was but saddle up everyday and go in anyway. Your also expected to make judgement calls, assess situations, and know how to properly handle them because you were suppose to have the right training.

As a police officer this "cop" should have had more assessment, and observation skills then he demonstrated, police, soldiers and armed guards must be able to read people to a certain degree or atleast notice their disposition and act accordingly, that is the job as making the wrong decision can get people needlessly killed, or you being in deep shit for a "unjustified" shoot.
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my thing is that even if I accept that reaching for his waistband is something to be seen as a threat, it should not have been possible in the first place
there were multiple officers (note: the cop talking in the video is not the cop who shot him) which means they could have aimed at him and apprehended him, not force an overweight drunk guy to crawl with complex commands that go against human nature (seriously telling someone that if they fall they can't protect their face is ridiculous)

the whole situation should never have happened and his death is on the officers
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also, there's a thread on the protectandserve subreddit with verified police officers who overwhelmingly believe that it was a bad call
won't link it since it links to the liveleak video, but these guys generally side with the cop
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tote_all posted...

nicklebro posted...

It's like the law and their training has us risking our lives to.protect the cops.

People actually believe this.

Duh, how could they not after watching this and the Philando Castile shooting? Really man, I agree with most of what you said, but arguing on CE has made you so closed minded and hard headed that you never even entertain then possibility of someone else having a valid point. It's super childish.
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prince_leo posted...

my thing is that even if I accept that reaching for his waistband is something to be seen as a threat, it should not have been possible in the first place
there were multiple officers (note: the cop talking in the video is not the cop who shot him) which means they could have aimed at him and apprehended him, not force an overweight drunk guy to crawl with complex commands that go against human nature (seriously telling someone that if they fall they can't protect their face is ridiculous)

the whole situation should never have happened and his death is on the officers

An officer could have gone over while the man was prone and obviously defenseless to apprehend him. That would require having officers that aren't trigger happy though and hoping they get a chance to shoot their weapons.
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chaos knight posted...

prince_leo posted...

my thing is that even if I accept that reaching for his waistband is something to be seen as a threat, it should not have been possible in the first place
there were multiple officers (note: the cop talking in the video is not the cop who shot him) which means they could have aimed at him and apprehended him, not force an overweight drunk guy to crawl with complex commands that go against human nature (seriously telling someone that if they fall they can't protect their face is ridiculous)

the whole situation should never have happened and his death is on the officers

An officer could have gone over while the man was prone and obviously defenseless to apprehend him. That would require having officers that aren't trigger happy though and hoping they get a chance to shoot their weapons.

Exactly, it would require officers that were concerned with keeping that man alive rather than just themselves.
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I want to know how many "cops" were there that not a single one of them could walk over and arrest him while the others secure the hall, and cover the arresting officer so no one is harmed. There were so many other and better ways to handle this situation yet they went with one of the worst and a boy is now dead because of a stupid incompetent man with a gun and badge.
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Offworlder1 posted...

It is murder, the fact you can't understand that speaks to how blind you are, the kid was an unarmed drunk facing a nutcase with a gun pointed at him looking for any reason to kill.

@_RETS_

It isn't murder. Manslaughter sure, but it isn't murder and never should have been charged as such.

A suspect credibly believed to be armed rapidly reached for his waist. You would have shot too you liar.