Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi: Spoiler Thread Episode III

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Lopen posted...

My argument is that we're thinking about it way more than the writers did, because they don't really understand Luke Skywalker or Star Wars all that well.

They understand Star Wars a lot better than Lucas did
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guys

it was darth binks

qed
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Lucas understood Star Wars very well, he just didn't understand how to deliver his vision of Star Wars while maintaining a readable script and good acting unless he was properly reined in.

Prequel Trilogy: All the soul of Star Wars is there, but it's incredibly muddled by George not being good at things like human interaction, keeping the plot focused, etc etc, and no one keeping him in line there
New Trilogy: Soulless version of Star Wars that don't really add much of note to the universe or lore, but snappy writing and good direction. Significantly better movies, but worse at being Star Wars movies.
Original Trilogy: Best of both

That's how I see it anyway.
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AquaArcane posted...

Lopen posted...

My argument is that we're thinking about it way more than the writers did, because they don't really understand Luke Skywalker or Star Wars all that well.

They understand Star Wars a lot better than Lucas did

This is the dumbest comment ever. No one can understand star wars better than the guy who thought it up and created it.
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You would think that, but the prequels say otherwise.
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Corrik posted...

AquaArcane posted...

Lopen posted...

My argument is that we're thinking about it way more than the writers did, because they don't really understand Luke Skywalker or Star Wars all that well.

They understand Star Wars a lot better than Lucas did

This is the dumbest comment ever. No one can understand star wars better than the guy who thought it up and created it.

They can understand what makes it good better than he does. That's the entire point of editing after all-- to bring out the best of what's there.

I don't think Lucas understands why Star Wars was good, and I think midichlorians prove that point pretty easily.
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AquaArcane posted...

You would think that, but the prequels say otherwise.

There was nothing wrong with it besides a couple quibbles. The main problem was dialogue.
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The main problem was everything. The dialogue, the acting, the special effects, the lightsaber dancing, it's all bad.
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Corrik posted...

AquaArcane posted...

Lopen posted...

My argument is that we're thinking about it way more than the writers did, because they don't really understand Luke Skywalker or Star Wars all that well.

They understand Star Wars a lot better than Lucas did

This is the dumbest comment ever. No one can understand star wars better than the guy who thought it up and created it.

The guy who invented GIFs doesn't know how to pronounce it, soooo....
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LapisLazuli posted...

The guy who invented GIFs doesn't know how to pronounce it, soooo....

omg stop
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The prequels were a nightmare factory. There is nothing worse to come out of the new trilogy than PT apologists.
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Lopen posted...

On general principle, the story being left to your interpretation is fine

If we're trying to rationalize a character doing something that is literally the opposite of his established character from Return of the Jedi, however, it's much less fine

Have you just been ignoring half of the argument (that RotJ Luke wasn't this pure righteous light side goody two shoes that you are making him out to be)?
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I don't think either side fully understands what makes Star Wars good

Like, if you had this team working on the original trilogy I simply put don't think Star Wars is a household name today-- might not even hit it out of the park so well as to get a sequel. I just don't see this team making memorable characters like Darth Vader, Chewbacca, etc etc. You'd probably just get a bog standard space movie.

You can hate the prequel trilogy for a lot of reasons, but it had a lot of memorable stuff. Darth Maul didn't really do anything, but people thought he was badass and got way more talk than Snoke, the Shiny Stormtrooper, or even Kylo Ren ever did. Hell even that dumb droid that used 6 lightsabers was more memorable than at least Snoke and the trooper in a lot of ways.

Lucas doesn't know what makes a good movie, but he knows what makes Star Wars tick. I bet if he was brought in as like a consultant and basically told to know his role when mentioning dumb shit like midichlorans this new trilogy would be better than it is.
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I just realized, Luke threw his lightsaber away after using his anger and raw power to take Vader down. Doesn't seem like he had any intention of grabbing it, so he shouldn't even have had it in the flashback with Ben.
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Lopen posted...

Like I'm just saying if you're making Luke act that far out of character, you'd better justify it damn well

It's impossible to justify changes to an enormously nostalgic character to nerds who only see things through the lens of the OT. The only way to win that game is not to play. It's justified inside the movies, that's all.
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Was definitely justified. I love what they did with Luke in this movie. If he had just been the god-like version like in the EU, I wouldn't have enjoyed it as much. Yeah it woulda been cool, but it would also be shallow. This version of Luke actually gave us a great character arc. It's a lot more real to me. Seeing that he failed and exiled himself like both of his teachers did makes a lot of sense.
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Lopen posted...

I don't think either side fully understands what makes Star Wars good

Like, if you had this team working on the original trilogy I simply put don't think Star Wars is a household name today-- might not even hit it out of the park so well as to get a sequel. I just don't see this team making memorable characters like Darth Vader, Chewbacca, etc etc. You'd probably just get a bog standard space movie.

You can hate the prequel trilogy for a lot of reasons, but it had a lot of memorable stuff. Darth Maul didn't really do anything, but people thought he was badass and got way more talk than Snoke, the Shiny Stormtrooper, or even Kylo Ren ever did. Hell even that dumb droid that used 6 lightsabers was more memorable than at least Snoke and the trooper in a lot of ways.

Lucas doesn't know what makes a good movie, but he knows what makes Star Wars tick. I bet if he was brought in as like a consultant and basically told to know his role when mentioning dumb shit like midichlorans this new trilogy would be better than it is.

Take it back. Grievous was lame.
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I think if you're going to use Luke for doing things that are completely out of character, and not justify his changes well, that using Luke is just hollow fanservice and you could just use a different character for that role.

Which I mean, I guess when Episode 7 is a retelling of Episode 4 that much goes without saying but ideally we'd hold these movies to a higher standard
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Lopen posted...

You can hate the prequel trilogy for a lot of reasons, but it had a lot of memorable stuff. Darth Maul didn't really do anything, but people thought he was badass and got way more talk than [...] Kylo Ren.

This isn't even close to true. Go check how many Google search results show up for each one. Kylo Ren is a highly-talked about character across all watchers of Star Wars; Darth Maul pretty much was only cared about by teen boys.
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I think people are massively losing sight of things here.

It shouldn't be hard to explain this was not a good movie.

It's trying to be three movies and only one of them are actually good.

You could have done this whole film in 45 minutes.
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NeoElfboy posted...

Go check how many Google search results show up for each one

Kylo Ren - 1,750,000 results (0.38 seconds)
Darth Maul - 3,060,000 results (0.45 seconds)

I mean that's not fair because Maul has like 15 years seniority on Kylo (though to be fair to Maul Kylo has like 20x the screentime already) but what are you even talking about here
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Lopen posted...

NeoElfboy posted...

Go check how many Google search results show up for each one

Kylo Ren - 1,750,000 results (0.38 seconds)
Darth Maul - 3,060,000 results (0.45 seconds)

I mean that's not fair because Maul has like 15 years seniority on Kylo (though to be fair to Maul Kylo has like 20x the screentime already) but what are you even talking about here

But Kylo also has recency. While maul also has clone wars and books. I dunno. I think it's fairly... Even all things considered.
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I think Maul did a lot more with what he had in any case as far as hype was concerned.
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Maul had a very popular design and style. Kylo ditching the mask lost a lot of appeal tbqh. I wish he hadn't ditched it until the 2nd or 3rd movie.
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Maul served his purpose of losing to the good guys really effectively
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Maul, Grievous, and Phasma are all basically the same character - which is to say that they aren't really "characters" at all - they are badass-looking obstacles placed in the heroes way whose sole purpose is to make the heroes look more badass by defeating them. None of them had anything in terms of backstory, character, or justification in any particular way.
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Corrik posted...

I wish he hadn't ditched it until the 2nd or 3rd movie.

It was the second movie when he destroyed it. And I'm glad too, because I didn't like his filtered voice. I much prefer him without the mask, the scar is way cooler anyway. I think he'll probably have yellow eyes in the next movie as well, his face seemed a bit more deformed near the end of TLJ.

SmartMuffin posted...

Maul, Grievous, and Phasma are all basically the same character - which is to say that they aren't really "characters" at all - they are badass-looking obstacles placed in the heroes way whose sole purpose is to make the heroes look more badass by defeating them. None of them had anything in terms of backstory, character, or justification in any particular way.

All of them have backstory, just not in the movies
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All of them have backstory, just not in the movies

The movies are the only relevant canon to 99% of the population
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One thing that's hilarious to me about the merchandising is how hard they failed with BB-9E. I was in a Disney Store today and they probably had at least 30 unsold models of it. Saw similar stock of 9E Christmas ornaments and toys at Target when I was there.

I have a feeling we'll see more of BB-9E in Episode IX to move all his crap in two years.
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By the way, did anyone discuss the logistics of the 18 hour slow space chase? That's the one thing I don't understand...why were they pacing at exactly the same speed for that long.
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VintageGin posted...

By the way, did anyone discuss the logistics of the 18 hour slow space chase? That's the one thing I don't understand...why were they pacing at exactly the same speed for that long.

Because apparently the first order wanted them to run out of fuel instead of destroy them for whatever reason.
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VintageGin posted...

By the way, did anyone discuss the logistics of the 18 hour slow space chase? That's the one thing I don't understand...why were they pacing at exactly the same speed for that long.

My best understanding is that top-speed (non-warp) was essentially equal between the two fleets, and there was enough range between them that weapons were basically ineffective. The Empire had to close the distance between themselves and the rebels for their weapons to work, which was only going to happen if they ran out of fuel.
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SmartMuffin posted...

VintageGin posted...

By the way, did anyone discuss the logistics of the 18 hour slow space chase? That's the one thing I don't understand...why were they pacing at exactly the same speed for that long.

My best understanding is that top-speed (non-warp) was essentially equal between the two fleets, and there was enough range between them that weapons were basically ineffective. The Empire had to close the distance between themselves and the rebels for their weapons to work, which was only going to happen if they ran out of fuel.

Yeah, that was my understanding too. But it seems silly that that they had the exact same top speed so that the distance remained the same.

And thinking back, I thought maybe it made sense if the rebels had a faster top speed but decided to keep the distance the same to conserve fuel...but I'm pretty sure at some point they explicitly say something about increasing to max speed.
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VintageGin posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

VintageGin posted...

By the way, did anyone discuss the logistics of the 18 hour slow space chase? That's the one thing I don't understand...why were they pacing at exactly the same speed for that long.

My best understanding is that top-speed (non-warp) was essentially equal between the two fleets, and there was enough range between them that weapons were basically ineffective. The Empire had to close the distance between themselves and the rebels for their weapons to work, which was only going to happen if they ran out of fuel.

Yeah, that was my understanding too. But it seems silly that that they had the exact same top speed so that the distance remained the same.

And thinking back, I thought maybe it made sense if the rebels had a faster top speed but decided to keep the distance the same to conserve fuel...but I'm pretty sure at some point they explicitly say something about increasing to max speed.

The tie fighters could have ran it down at any time.
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Corrik posted...

VintageGin posted...

SmartMuffin posted...

VintageGin posted...

By the way, did anyone discuss the logistics of the 18 hour slow space chase? That's the one thing I don't understand...why were they pacing at exactly the same speed for that long.

My best understanding is that top-speed (non-warp) was essentially equal between the two fleets, and there was enough range between them that weapons were basically ineffective. The Empire had to close the distance between themselves and the rebels for their weapons to work, which was only going to happen if they ran out of fuel.

Yeah, that was my understanding too. But it seems silly that that they had the exact same top speed so that the distance remained the same.

And thinking back, I thought maybe it made sense if the rebels had a faster top speed but decided to keep the distance the same to conserve fuel...but I'm pretty sure at some point they explicitly say something about increasing to max speed.

The tie fighters could have ran it down at any time.

They specifically moved out of fighter range. It's literally the only reason the attack where Leia almost dies stops .

The dreadnought crew mention to Hux that the rebel cruiser is faster (and lighter) but not fast enough to totally lose them. I guess theoretically they'd lose them eventually, but not soon enough. The transport destruction indicates that the guns have a pretty long range.
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Yeah they were smaller and faster, so they were slowly gaining distance between them and the First Order ships. It didn't matter either way though, since they were being tracked. It wasn't possible to escape.
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It is 100% impossible that capital ship can be faster than Tie Fighters.
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why didn't the order just hyper jump like a mile ahead of them and fly back towards them
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Corrik posted...

It is 100% impossible that capital ship can be faster than Tie Fighters.

They're not faster than TIE fighters. They are fast enough to get out of range where the dreadnought can support the TIE fighters.
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FFDragon posted...

why didn't the order just hyper jump like a mile ahead of them and fly back towards them

This has been said a 100 times. Or transmitted for part of their fleet to jump ahead of them.to the nearest habitable planet.

There is no such thing as "fighter range". Tie Fighters can be a million miles from a ship. Some tie designs even have hyperdrives.

They are basically Jets only limited by fuel. The cruiser is not far enough that the ties are gonna run out of fuel. And star destroyers can glass planets from orbit, and supposedly this ship is too far away?

I mean, I will maybe buy the whole they were out of range of the destroyer, but being out of range of the tie fighters is impossible.
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CeraSeptem posted...

Corrik posted...

It is 100% impossible that capital ship can be faster than Tie Fighters.

They're not faster than TIE fighters. They are fast enough to get out of range where the dreadnought can support the TIE fighters.

They don't need support? They eliminated all the snub fighters of the Resistance. The capital ships are sitting ducks.
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I don't know bro. They explained it. You don't like it.
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You might be making up your own rules for Star Wars, which is okay since apparently everyone does it

They said they can't support their TIE fighters from that far away, maybe their TIE fighters wouldn't have enough fuel to make it that far because they're not meant to, or maybe their cannons wouldn't be enough to destroy the capital ship without the support of their Star Destroyer canons. I don't know I can make up rules too though.
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CeraSeptem posted...

I don't know bro. They explained it. You don't like it.

It doesn't line up with Star Wars Canon. They chased Han through the asteroid field way further than the cruiser was away.
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AquaArcane posted...

You might be making up your own rules for Star Wars, which is okay since apparently everyone does it

They said they can't support their TIE fighters from that far away, maybe their TIE fighters wouldn't have enough fuel to make it that far because they're not meant to, or maybe their cannons wouldn't be enough to destroy the capital ship without the support of their Star Destroyer canons. I don't know I can make up rules too though.

A single tie fighter shot just destroyed the command bridge of the capital ship. We just saw a single x wing with basically no support and tie fighters galore take out a bunch of the destroyers turbo lasers.

Tie Fighters are swarm fighters. They are to take out turbolasers and then the ship is defenseless. Which lets them pick apart the ships components rending the ship dead in space to be caught up to or to eventually destroy it outright.

Do you not remember the xwings causing damage to the death star? Which again... Was further away than the cruiser to that fleet.

The x wings could have destroyed the entire death star eventually if there was no tie fighters at all or turbolasers over time without the exhaust port by just destroying key components on the outside. Of course that was never realistic or feasible due to the vast array of defenses it had.

The tie fighters could have easily done the job. And I highly doubt they had no tie bombers or other snubs in that fleet also.

Edit: I mean, eventually. It woulda taken maybe days or weeks to eventually do it due to the enormity of it. Maybe longer.
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A single X wing also destroyed the entire Death Star so if we're talking about single ace pilots then literally anything goes in Star Wars.

But I guess the first order didn't have one of those aces this time. And neither did the rebels.

Ultimately all this comes down to "it didn't happen the way I wanted it to happen"
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Did anyone else find it funny that the xwing in TFA is destroyed in a few blaster shots while the tie fighter they stole to escape takes a ton of shots including stationary gun shots and doesn't get significantly damaged?

While we also just saw a tie fighter in rogue one get one shot if I remember correctly by a guy shooting at it from the ground.
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The TIE/sf space superiority fighter was a starfighter model used by the First Order, a specialized version of the TIE/fo space superiority fighter. It was a two-seater unlike the previous TIE models, and was outfitted with enhanced weapons and sensor systems as well as hyperdrives and deflector shields. The TIE/sf was reserved for members of the First Order's elite Special Forces. On the lower side of the vehicle, directly below the primary fuel tank, was a turret containing a pair of heavy laser cannons and a mag-pulse warhead launcher.

Well, that solves the whole distance argument.

And the First Order Tie Fighters are basically fucking Tie Defenders which are OP as fuck.
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Kylo Ren is piloting a customized Tie Silencer. Which is basically a Defender / Interceptor that is suped up hard.
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500
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