Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 428: 25 Years of RAW, Unmitigated Malfeasance

(+) Yeah! (+)

Lopen posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Nah, that'd have the opposite effect on those people.

Only if they're actively following these press conferences and are gung ho 'MERICA people

I don't think people will notice the lack of an anthem being played if it's not mentioned on TV or in the media and I'm not sure why it would be

I mean, yeah, that's the point. If you're going after that crowd, you publicize it to get them to tune in in the first place.
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But Vince probably thinks soccer is a pussy sport.
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StealThisSheen posted...

If you're going after that crowd, you publicize it to get them to tune in in the first place.

I think there's more people in the crowd annoyed by anthem stuff than 'MERICA people. A lot of people just don't like that there's political stuff in the football whatsoever. It has nothing to do with whether a dude is kneeling for the anthem or not but rather that it's a point of focus to begin with in a game of football.
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The fact sheet makes it sound like hes trying to revive the old usfl structure where the XFL plays during the NFL offseason which isn't the WORST idea except the AFL already exists
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Lopen posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

If you're going after that crowd, you publicize it to get them to tune in in the first place.

I think there's more people in the crowd annoyed by anthem stuff than 'MERICA people. A lot of people just don't like that there's political stuff in the football whatsoever. It has nothing to do with whether a dude is kneeling for the anthem or not but rather that it's a point of focus to begin with in a game of football.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, and it's why I questioned how big the audience is in general

I'm merely saying that's specifically the audience he's going for with that: The 'MERICA people.
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I hope this fails spectacularly.
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Right, so if this is to capitalise on the Trump supporting base.

One has to ask, how long will that be a popular move?

These movements tend to have a shelf life, how is he going to have people come to this product every season like MLB manages.
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He's pitching it in a way that implies he's going for people upset with politics in football. I'm saying his current strategy goes for 'MERICA people. I'm not actually sure that is his intent. You'd think if you were going for those people you'd play that up harder instead of saying "we don't want politics involved during the game" cause if you really don't want politics involved during the game there's a better optimal method to remove that (which is getting rid of the anthem being played entirely, as I said)
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Lopen posted...

He's pitching it in a way that implies he's going for people upset with politics in football. I'm saying his current strategy goes for 'MERICA people. I'm not actually sure that is his intent. You'd think if you were going for those people you'd play that up harder instead of saying "we don't want politics involved during the game" cause if you really don't want politics involved during the game there's a better optimal method to remove that (which is getting rid of the anthem being played entirely, as I said)

You're not thinking like that audience, though

When a Trumper thinks "no politics," they think "no protesting," not... No anthem/etc., period. So to them, "no politics" means "No protesting. Stand like intended."
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but it's not 'no politics'

it's 'my politics'
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Like basically the marketing is a contradiction

He's going for 'MERICA people that are ashamed to say they're 'MERICA people. Aren't 'MERICA people by definition typically proud to play up that they're proud to be patriots? Like I think a Trumper isn't really the type that is actually framing the discussion as "no politics."

There are actually a lot of people who when they say "no politics" actually mean "I don't like to discuss politics and would rather avoid it when I'm not actively looking for it" many of which happen to support Trump as well.
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I mean, a lot of those "no politics" people also were against going back to players being in the lockerroom during the anthem, so

A lot of the "no politics" Trump crowd is definitely "my politics"
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The loud ones on Twitter are more the "my politics" crowd

Not really sure that's the majority though. Think there's probably more people who just get annoyed by politics everywhere.

I'm just saying I think that if you're marketing you should either say "WE'RE AN AMERICAN LEAGUE EVERYONE MUST STAND FOR THE ANTHEM" and proclaim that proudly, or you should say "we don't like politics in the game so we're removing all potentially political elements from the game, starting with just not playing the anthem period"

Right now it's sort of a wishy-washy thing that isn't really going to tap into either group.
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https://twitter.com/AriyaDaivariWWE/status/956636454259691522
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

https://twitter.com/AriyaDaivariWWE/status/956636454259691522

It's worth it for that alone
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Lopen posted...

The loud ones on Twitter are more the "my politics" crowd

Not really sure that's the majority though. Think there's probably more people who just get annoyed by politics everywhere.

Eh, I'd disagree with that. When most polls were showing half to a majority of people saying "players should stand" or "players are doing the wrong thing," that makes the "my politics" crowd definitely seem bigger. The only thing that went the other way is "should they be punished."

It's not question a large "my politics" Trump crowd exists.

The question is are they large enough/worth marketing to with football.
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Well, there's an inherent sampling bias there you realize right.

I mean people who are passionate about "my politics" are more likely to be the ones to go out of their way to answer the poll.

Either way the original point was that if you want 'MERICA to be the marketing point-- which again, I'm not actually sure Vince wants that and he just doesn't really get what he's doing-- I still think being more direct about it makes alot more sense than not. Saying what you're doing clearly and then doing it is just the better way to do it-- especially when it's so important to give people a reason to watch your product. Better to be distinctive than not.
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I don't fully get why this argument is even taking place

We both agree it's not a good idea

I'm merely stating he's going after the "my politics" Trumper crowd which seems to make up a majority, while you're trying to... Defend their honor or something? >_>
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I'm saying I don't think he is actually going after that crowd

I think he's going after the "no politics" crowd and doing it wrong so he's going to at best get a subset of the "my politics" crowd.
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Lopen posted...

I'm saying I don't think he is actually going after that crowd

Requiring players to stand for the anthem means he's definitely going after that crowd to some degree, since, like you said, it'd just be easier to not have the anthem at all if he wasn't
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Not really. It could just mean he's an idiot that doesn't realize the implications of the two statements "we don't want politics to be involved" and "so we're requiring all players stand for the anthem" being made in the same train of thought.
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Lopen posted...

Not really. It could just mean he's an idiot that doesn't realize the implications of the two statements "we don't want politics to be involved" and "so we're requiring all players stand for the anthem" being made in the same train of thought.

I mean, that suggests he just came up with "Players should stand for the anthem" with nothing actually influencing the decision at all, which is a pretty big leap. Given that he's a Trump supporter, it's definitely much more logical to assume he intended to tap into that crowd, or at the least get a Trump endorsement.
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I think he tried to tap into the "no politics" crowd, didn't fully understand its composition, and and because he's a Trump supporter his natural resolution to the dispute was to force standing for the Anthem. The alternative of just not playing it probably never entered his mind.
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Lopen posted...

I think he tried to tap into the "no politics" crowd, didn't fully understand its composition, and and because he's a Trump supporter his natural resolution to the dispute was to force standing for the Anthem. The alternative of just not playing it probably never entered his mind.

Which literally brings us back to the argument that I believe a majority of Trump supporters are "No politics = my politics," whereas you think they aren't.

My argument is that to a majority of Trump supporters, the anthem in general isn't "bringing politics into" anything, only the protests did. To them, the anthem is just something that should and does happen, so it's not political in their minds. Hence "No politics." No politics = no protests.

So there's not really an argument here other than a differing opinion.
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I'm also saying "no politics" doesn't necessary make you a Trump supporter btw. I think you're way underselling how annoyed people as a whole are by political stuff popping up where they're not interested in talking about it if you think this is entirely a Trump vs not Trump thing.
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Lopen posted...

I'm also saying "no politics" doesn't necessary make you a Trump supporter btw. I think you're way underselling how annoyed people as a whole are by political stuff popping up where they're not interested in talking about it if you think this is entirely a Trump vs not Trump thing.

I never said "No politics" makes you a Trump supporter.

I'm saying to most Trump supporters, "no politics" has a very specific meaning, and it's not the same meaning as it is to you and I.

Thus, my argument is that when Vince, a Trump supporter, is saying "No politics," he's not speaking to you or me... He's speaking to the audience he's trying to reach, who understand it as something different than you or I do.
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StealThisSheen posted...

He's speaking to the audience he's trying to reach.

My whole point is that it's not a calculated decision to reach that audience.

He's trying to reach an audience that is bigger, and failing because of his mindset fundamentally being in that audience. If he was explicitly trying to reach that audience there are more effective ways to market your product imo.
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Lopen posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

He's speaking to the audience he's trying to reach.

My whole point is that it's not a calculated decision to reach that audience.

He's trying to reach an audience that is bigger, and failing because of his mindset fundamentally being in that audience. If he was explicitly trying to reach that audience there are more effective ways to market your product imo.

No, because that audience is "no politics = my politics." Not "No politics = no politics."

Let me break this down.

To that audience, "No politics" = "my politics."
To a general audience, "no politics" = "no politics."

If he was speaking to the general audience, then yes, it'd be more effective to not have the anthem, period.

But the fact that he went "They must stand" suggests he's speaking to that audience, not the general audience, because not standing is directly a problem to that audience.

Like, let's say Vince says "There will be pies. We will serve pizza."

To you and me, we may question "Now, hold on. Is he saying no fruit pies, no cream pies...?"

But to New Yorkers, they're more likely to instantly just go "Okay, he means there will be pizza."

And if Vince is somebody who is also of the mind "pie" = "pizza," then it's more likely that he's specifically speaking to New Yorkers instead of just in general deciding to say "pies" and then backtrack to "pizza."

So Vince, as a Trumper, is more likely to be speaking to other Trumpers than to a general audience and just backtracking to a Trumper view.
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...This is a really dumb debate that has taken up too many posts, so let's just agree to disagree

I think Vince is specifically trying to take advantage of a Trump crowd/possible Trump endorsement
You basically just think he's an idiot who doesn't actually know what he meant.

Both are possible.
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can we please not do politics in here
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But I thought that the whole point of this league was no politics!
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Political discussion, number 41, defense. The nuclear football will be placed at the spot of the foul. First down.
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All charges against Rich Swann dismissed.
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Man, he handled it.
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Its a discussion about the concept of politics moreso than an actual political discussion though.

My take: Vince is deliberately courting that market, but using language vague enough to not make it seem like its ONLY for them, because thats a nightmare financially
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StealThisSheen posted...

If he was speaking to the general audience, then yes, it'd be more effective to not have the anthem, period.

I'm talking about the rest of his pitch could be made more effective for 'Trumpers' not that specific element, for the record.

Like you seem to be saying "he is specifically trying to reach Trumpers, this is why he's saying this"
I am thinking "he is trying to reach a different audience based on the way he's pitching the thing, but because of his nature as a man his attempt to reach that different audience is being funneled down to a 'my politics' type of viewpoint"

Like Vince not having a good idea of what his "target audience" wants isn't new I guess is what it boils down to. <_< You can think of "no politics" as "fans want a huge star, the next Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, or John Cena as a champion" and "my politics" as "Roman Reigns" if that helps.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Its a discussion about the concept of politics moreso than an actual political discussion though.

My take: Vince is deliberately courting that market, but using language vague enough to not make it seem like its ONLY for them, because thats a nightmare financially

That's basically my take as well, and why he's not going "'MERICA!"
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as a non-trumper my apwt policy is "no politics, even if they are mine and/or tangential"
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As the person who posted this APWT I would like to see more jokes about Rich Swann's release.
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I feel uncomfortable joking about Swann until we get more details about the charges being dropped
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scarletspeed7 posted...

As the person who posted this APWT I would like to see more jokes about Rich Swann's release.

Swann was released?
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I think he meant release from charges
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Getting on a different track here: I know I'm probably NOT going to stop watching WWE (though I have gone months without watching anything but PPVs), but the fuck up that was Raw 25 really sold me on the idea that it isn't the wrestlers or Vince's "brass ring," or anything that ruins the current product.

Call it overproduction if you want: I liken it to Sterilization.

Outside of like 5-10 people on the roster, here are the biggest problems they face.

1. One-defining trait (if you can even call it that)
2. Stupid character arcs for everyone (In WWE, you can't be a "face." You have to suck at it, THEN turn, and THEN turn back to be any kind of character, i.e. getting more than one trait. You're lucky to have two, and some edgey balls.)
3. The Miz
4. BRANDING! SO MUCH GOD DAMN BRANDING!

Even John Cena went through this shit, much as his transformation stopped when he became "THE GUY." But the fact there are no babyfaces (just heels who turned because hey character), I can't fathom how screwed up it is that everyone feels the exact same, unless your name is Paul Heyman, and you say what you want because you have BROCK FUCKING LESNAR as your client. Or your name is Braun, you're massive, and they let you wreck shit.

It just feels like a soulless enterprise. I don't recall WCW being that way, WWF being that way in the 90s or even early 00s, any indy promotion. It just feels like something died. The worst part is nothing on Raw 25 felt special, and it was a damn shame. Even as good as the Vince/Austin segment was...even that felt as dry as sliced bread.

God I want Lucha Underground back so badly.
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I can't believe my favorite APWT joke almost made me go "Wait, how is Miz a problem?"
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Strife2 posted...

God I want Lucha Underground back so badly.

Season 4 begins taping shortly
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To add on to your sterilization critique, which is spot on, its long been said that if you funnel EVERYONE through the same developmental system, the matches all start to blend together into one bland pile of mush.

Yes the WWE style can make for matches as great as any other, but when thats the ONLY style you see for 10 hours a week, yuck.

AJ is a top worker in part because hes not WWE-trained and can adapt his style to the WWE mold.

Brock is a top draw because almost all of his matches are allowed to BREAK the WWE mold (almost, Im looking at you Braun)
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You're right but I think it's a bit more down to the roots than you're letting on. You seem to think it's mostly at the presentation level, which isn't wrong, but like it's even the very matches themselves have the problem. Everything is just very formulaic because that's thought to be the way that "works."
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Jakyl'd, kinda.
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And AJ might be the last guy who gets to skip the Performance Center re-education
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But the matches themselves can be overcome, since the roster has the most talent up and down...EVER. I mean, New Day/Usos alone shows that the "WWE style" can be great if given some creativity. HIAC was chock full of things I hadn't seen in about 10 years of those matches (sans Brock ripping the ring apart with Taker). It's like they just don't think outside the box enough.

Then again, I'm not sure why the SD Tag division (title matches anyway) get to be such an outlier.
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