Current Events > healthcare: privilege or basic human rights?

(+) Yeah! (+)

it's a simple question

the issue is black and white. is the issue black and white?

should healthcare, the treatment of disease and sickness among the general populace

be considered basic human rights?

or is it a privilege

your answer in the poll

feel free to explain your answers in the posts
---

It's a privilege but I also think it should be a basic requirement for a nation to consider itself developed and top tier.
---

Never minding the cynicism that "there's no such thing as a right"...

Privilege. However, providing stuff like vaccines and basic healthcare (prevention+treatment) is both cheaper and increases the quality of life for the population as a whole rather than reserve it only for those capable of paying.

It's also how I view education -- having the vast majority being literate and capable of addition (e.g.) is a good thing and worth the investment.
---

should be a right for kids at least

along with food, water, and a place to live, healthcare is one of the fundamental human rights
---

Healthcare cannot be a "right" because you do not have the "right" to other people's labor. That's called slavery.
---

pinky0926 posted...

It's a privilege but I also think it should be a basic requirement for a nation to consider itself developed and top tier.

---

averagejoel posted...

along with food, water, and a place to live, healthcare is one of the fundamental human rights

If people have an automatic "right" to food, water, a home, and health care... why the hell would anyone work? And who's going to pay for all those things in a society where people don't need to work?
---

averagejoel posted...

along with food, water, and a place to live, healthcare is one of the fundamental human rights

Ah, but the right not to be murdered doesn't exist according to you.

r4X0r posted...

have an automatic "right" to food, water, a home, and health care... why the hell would anyone work? And who's going to pay for all those things in a society where people don't need to work?

He's a Stalin supporting communist.

r4X0r posted...

averagejoel posted...

along with food, water, and a place to live, healthcare is one of the fundamental human rights

If people have an automatic "right" to food, water, a home, and health care... why the hell would anyone work? And who's going to pay for all those things in a society where people don't need to work?

Can still have a right to not be denied them, but still have to pay.

Like your water can't be shut off for example
---

Funkydog posted...

r4X0r posted...

averagejoel posted...

along with food, water, and a place to live, healthcare is one of the fundamental human rights

If people have an automatic "right" to food, water, a home, and health care... why the hell would anyone work? And who's going to pay for all those things in a society where people don't need to work?

Can still have a right to not be denied them, but still have to pay.

Like your water can't be shut off for example

How is that different? What do you do if enough people stop paying for their state's water supply and the state doesn't have the funding to continue employing the people who manage the water?
---

I worked for my town for the water department and we sure as hell would do water shutoffs for people who didn't pay.
---

This is good discourse, I'm glad we're having it

Let's remember to keep the hostility down to a minimum guys

and of course don't name-call because that's flaming always
---

FLUFFYGERM posted...

How is that different? What do you do if enough people stop paying for their state's water supply and the state doesn't have the funding to continue em

It works in Britain.

You get fined if you refuse to pay
---

FLUFFYGERM posted...

How is that different? What do you do if enough people stop paying for their state's water supply and the state doesn't have the funding to continue employing the people who manage the water?

Flint happens.

In Britain they can literally send people to your house to confiscate your property if you don't pay your bill, simply shutting people's water off seems like a far more civilized way to get the point across.

Flint happened because of an inept government that simply stole all the money that was supposed to go to infrastructure. Do you remember what happened when we gave them a bunch of money to fix it? She tried to steal THAT money, too!

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/09/us/flint-mayor-water-crisis-lawsuit/index.html

Flint mayor diverted water-crisis money to political PAC, suit says
---

Other.

All rights are artificial, none are fundamental.

I think the state should look after its citizens and part of that is health care. I am in favour of it being in place but I'm under no illusion that it or anything else is a "fundamental" right.

If anything it is both something that a society should aspire to and a privilege once it is in place that ought to be respected and cherished. As soon as things are thought of as fundamental then people start to take them for granted.
---

both

fatties and smokers don't deserve it
---

r4X0r posted...

In Britain they can literally send people to your house to confiscate your property if you don't pay your bill, simply shutting people's water off seems like a far more civilized way to get the point across.

I mean, only after repeated reminders, offering aid to help pay it, reducing the amount....

They do a load before they go that far, and it allows you to always have access to water no matter what
---

Almost every first world country has it as a right. America should aspire for the same.

It's not possible for health care to be a human right. In order to claim that health care is a human right you are supposing that it is someone's duty to provide health care. But it is immoral to compel somebody to provide a service to somebody else.

There are no positive rights.
---

Hicks233 posted...

Other.

All rights are artificial, none are fundamental.

I think the state should look after its citizens and part of that is health care. I am in favour of it being in place but I'm under no illusion that it or anything else is a "fundamental" right.

If anything it is both something that a society should aspire to and a privilege once it is in place that ought to be respected and cherished. As soon as things are thought of as fundamental then people start to take them for granted.

Don't you think people can better look after themselves, and know what's best for their individual situation rather than having one government trying to tell a third of a billion people how their healthcare should work? All I want is the privilege of keeping more of my own money so that I can take care of myself and my family.
---

fenderbender321 posted...

r4X0r posted...

Healthcare cannot be a "right" because you do not have the "right" to other people's labor. That's called slavery.

Smartest post in this topic so far.

---

Where are the universal healthcare countries with slave doctors?
---

Funkydog posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

How is that different? What do you do if enough people stop paying for their state's water supply and the state doesn't have the funding to continue em

It works in Britain.

You get fined if you refuse to pay

Dude what in the fuck? Are you reading what you're posting? How is that not a contradiction?

"Give everyone the right to water. Expect them to pay, but don't turn off the water if they don't. Just fine them!"

What happens if they refuse to pay the fine?
---

Antifar posted...

Where are the universal healthcare countries with slave doctors?

Not UK, apparently.
https://www.ft.com/content/a3a52be8-8e3a-11e7-a352-e46f43c5825d

John_Galt posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

r4X0r posted...

Healthcare cannot be a "right" because you do not have the "right" to other people's labor. That's called slavery.

Smartest post in this topic so far.

As someone in the healthcare profession this is probably the stupidest reason to be against universal healthcare that exists.

Even "lol no" is better and caries more logic to it
---

John_Galt posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

r4X0r posted...

Healthcare cannot be a "right" because you do not have the "right" to other people's labor. That's called slavery.

Smartest post in this topic so far.

its not slavery if you pay them, you dimwit

Antifar posted...

Where are the universal healthcare countries with slave doctors?

People stop becoming doctors and nurses in those countries, due to low wages and overwhelming pressure.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40715955
---

what if we treated healthcare like utilities
---

i dont understand how human beings have a 100% mortality rate, and the vast majority of human beings will probably face some kind of serious illness or injury at some point in their life, yet we have somehow come to a conclusion that being able to receive medical treatment is treated as some kind of luxury
---

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Antifar posted...

Where are the universal healthcare countries with slave doctors?

People stop becoming doctors and nurses in those countries, due to low wages and overwhelming pressure.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40715955

Blame the government that is gutting the NHS and removing incentives to take up relevant degrees for those jobs.
---

John_Galt posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

r4X0r posted...

Healthcare cannot be a "right" because you do not have the "right" to other people's labor. That's called slavery.

Smartest post in this topic so far.

It's not. You have the right to an education, no one says teachers are slaves. You have the right to an attorney, no one says public defenders are slaves.
You can expand that on to talking about how we have a right to a safe country but no one argues that police officers or firefighters are slaves. You don't get charged for calling 911.

It's a bad argument and you should feel bad.
---

Hinakuluiau posted...

John_Galt posted...

fenderbender321 posted...

r4X0r posted...

Healthcare cannot be a "right" because you do not have the "right" to other people's labor. That's called slavery.

Smartest post in this topic so far.

It's not. You have the right to an education, no one says teachers are slaves. You have the right to an attorney, no one says public defenders are slaves.
You can expand that on to talking about how we have a right to a safe country but no one argues that police officers or firefighters are slaves. You don't get charged for calling 911.

It's a bad argument and you should feel bad.

The belief that you have a "right" to education is some seriously flawed thinking as well. It's a privilege afforded to you by the society you live in. Same with health care. You simply do not have a "right" to other people's time, labor, and money. That violates THEIR rights.
---

r4X0r posted...

It's a privilege afforded to you by the society you live in. Same with health care.

isn't this just a way of saying rights don't actually exist? there's nothing we have that can't be phrased this way
---

r4X0r posted...

averagejoel posted...

along with food, water, and a place to live, healthcare is one of the fundamental human rights

If people have an automatic "right" to food, water, a home, and health care... why the hell would anyone work? And who's going to pay for all those things in a society where people don't need to work?

In averagejoel's communist utopia this isn't an issue.
---

r4X0r posted...

The belief that you have a "right" to education is some seriously flawed thinking as well. It's a privilege afforded to you by the society you live in. Same with health care. You simply do not have a "right" to other people's time, labor, and money. That violates THEIR rights.

You are deliberately misrepresenting what people mean when they say these are rights then.
---

I don't think we have an absolute right to disregard how we affect others. Not doing something is every bit as consequential as doing something and as worthy of regulation. Allowing our fellow man to die and suffer from untreated mental and physical ailments is a failure of society and immoral and dangerous enough to warrant a public option.

r4X0r posted...

The belief that you have a "right" to education is some seriously flawed thinking as well. It's a privilege afforded to you by the society you live in. Same with health care. You simply do not have a "right" to other people's time, labor, and money. That violates THEIR rights.

i dont think it is crazy to expect that by living in the US and paying very high taxes, we are entitled to social benefits. as it stands now, americans pay very high taxes and get nearly nothing in return, a lot of times not even clean drinking water
---

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Antifar posted...

Where are the universal healthcare countries with slave doctors?

People stop becoming doctors and nurses in those countries, due to low wages and overwhelming pressure.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40715955

Because, as it turns out, single-payer means single buyer.

Funkydog posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Antifar posted...

Where are the universal healthcare countries with slave doctors?

People stop becoming doctors and nurses in those countries, due to low wages and overwhelming pressure.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40715955

Blame the government that is gutting the NHS and removing incentives to take up relevant degrees for those jobs.

The government can't fund more and more pay in perpetuity. There are limits, and the NHS has seen those limits. That's why your perspective is malformed. You can't give the greatest number of people quality care if you treat healthcare as a right. Ironically, the best way to guarantee quality care for the greatest number of people is to allow the market to introduce competition and market prices.
---

Romulox28 posted...

r4X0r posted...

The belief that you have a "right" to education is some seriously flawed thinking as well. It's a privilege afforded to you by the society you live in. Same with health care. You simply do not have a "right" to other people's time, labor, and money. That violates THEIR rights.

i dont think it is crazy to expect that by living in the US and paying very high taxes, we are entitled to social benefits. as it stands now, americans pay very high taxes and get nearly nothing in return, a lot of times not even clean drinking water

Careful, I've said this and vied for lower taxes but got a lot of flak from the communist CEmen who think our tax rates should be 75-100 percent.
---

are people not becoming doctors and nurses in countries like switzerland or new zealand or canada? I really don't know
---

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Life and pursuit of happiness are both reliant on, you know, being alive and not being wrecked by debt as a result of merely staying alive.

So definitely a right.

And love the keyboard warriors getting in a tizzy over the notion that everybody should have access to a certain minimum level of care without being driven to bankruptcy.
---

K181 posted...

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Life and pursuit of happiness are both reliant on, you know, being alive and not being wrecked by debt as a result of merely staying alive.

So definitely a right.

And love the keyboard warriors getting in a tizzy over the notion that everybody should have access to a certain minimum level of care without being driven to bankruptcy.

what does that mean, though? if you think it is a right, it's not really something you can just hand wave away like that imo
---

K181 posted...

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Life and pursuit of happiness are both reliant on, you know, being alive and not being wrecked by debt as a result of merely staying alive.

So definitely a right.

And love the keyboard warriors getting in a tizzy over the notion that everybody should have access to a certain minimum level of care without being driven to bankruptcy.

This is naivet and idealism. With absolutely no plan for pragmatism and sustainable implementation. Please read a goddam book.
---

Balrog0 posted...

are people not becoming doctors and nurses in countries like switzerland or new zealand or canada? I really don't know

Idk about the first two, but Canada does have long waiting times (sometimes even for critically necessary treatments) so I imagine the answer is yes
---