Current Events > Do you think the admiration of the Spartans is justified?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Looking at it from a military perspective the Spartans really weren't as great warriors as you'd imagine. A lot of academic work has been done on the Spartans to get past what is called the "Spartan mirage". Basically a lot of propaganda written by about them centuries after their prime. The whole killing kids thing was something brought up by Plutarch around the 2nd century AD while Xenophon in the 4th century BC never talks of any infanticide. Instead Xenophon writes that the Spartans used to share wives and encourage fertility due to the dwindling number of the citizen body. In these new studies it emerges that Sparta wasn't much of a warrior society.

In the Classical Era most of their military training amounted to athletic exercises and formation drill out in campaign. The Spartans, as far as the sources go, are never thought to use their weapons. In fact Plato in Laws tells us that the Spartans overlooked the art of hoplite combat. The only time we hear of the Spartans fighting to the death is at Thermopylae, at sphacteria the Spartans surrendered and they were not punished for this. In the cultural context of Ancient Greeks their basic military training helped them when their competition were stubborn amateurs in war. None of the other Greek city-states ever trained their armies in military matters. The organization of the other city-states was poor as they didn't divide their units below the level of lochos, which was several hundred men strong. This meant that passing commands during battle was next to impossible. In fact there's literacy evidence that training for war may have been the subject of mockery. The sources make it clear that most levies of the city-states were insubordinate to their superiors. When looked at this context it makes sense that Sparta was the one eyed king in the land of the blind.

Outside of military matters I find it peculiar that people would associate them with fighting for freedom when they had an underclass which they exploited to live their leisurely lives.
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Most old civilizations are pretty romanticized.

Mikablu posted...

Most old civilizations are pretty romanticized.

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The Spartans may not necessarily have been good warriors due to their rejection of philosophical education stuff, but they were certainly a warrior culture. There's basically no Spartan art besides like a statue supposedly of Leonidus because of how their lives were. Regardless of the infanticide, kids were taken from their mothers when they were young and they lived in barracks, weren't given enough food to survive (encouraging them to steal and preparing them for marches without sustenance), and trained all the time. Even the women trained because they thought a strong woman would give birth to strong babies. IIRC they say they didn't wear shoes because they hoped to strengthen their feet that way and not need them.

I dunno how much 'admiration' of Sparta there is. The sacrifice at Thermopylae is an inspiring event and helps create the Greek idea that they (the Greeks as a whole) were a superior people and culture, but mostly Sparta seems to be referenced because of what daily life was, not because of true military feats. If anything their main feat was oppressing so many enslaved people, there was like 10 oppressed persons to 1 Spartan, and their lives were grueling. But they get a happy ending when Sparta weakens because they go off to form IIRC Megalopolis which was the 'melting pot' before America.

From that, yeah Sparta does drop off in power and isn't exactly what it used to be, but its prime was super militaristic
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So was no one ever badass

Sad
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MorbidFaithless posted...

So was no one ever badass

Sad

Leonidus and the 300 was a real thing

Alexander bested Darius III, The King of Kings, when he was like 19 (Darius was king of Babylon, emperor of Persia, and Pharaoh of Egypt)

I almost put that one in spoilers because it's cool and flashy but remembered it's real life
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Something does not gel with the narrative posited in the OP. If Sparta did not have good warriors (but rather just had relative military hegemony over the other Greeks) how did they hold up in Thermopylae as long as they did? Was the Persian army also relatively weak in terms of training? If so is there any practical difference between being average among the weak and elite among the average? I would say elite is a completely relative term anyway.
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josifrees posted...

Something does not gel with the narrative posited in the OP. If Sparta did not have good warriors (but rather just had relative military hegemony over the other Greeks) how did they hold up in Thermopylae as long as they did? Was the Persian army also relatively weak in terms of training? If so is there any practical difference between being average among the weak and elite among the average? I would say elite is a completely relative term anyway.

Thermopylae was a pass. I think any heavy infantry could've held up a narrow pass.

As for the Persians, they probably weren't impressive either but they did have superior cavalry which the Greeks feared. They also had a core of heavy infantry like the Immortals and levied heavy infantry such as the Egyptians and the Assyrians. The Greeks mainly fought in terrain that wouldn't allow the Persians to make good use of their cavalry. At Marthon the Greeks made a sudden charge at the Persians to quickly negate their archer and cavalry. At Platea they held the high ground and fought in irregular terrain.
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Well, it was terrible what they had to do to those children, but we'd never have beaten the Covenant without them.
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Doe posted...

The Spartans may not necessarily have been good warriors due to their rejection of philosophical education stuff, but they were certainly a warrior culture. There's basically no Spartan art besides like a statue supposedly of Leonidus because of how their lives were. Regardless of the infanticide, kids were taken from their mothers when they were young and they lived in barracks, weren't given enough food to survive (encouraging them to steal and preparing them for marches without sustenance), and trained all the time. Even the women trained because they thought a strong woman would give birth to strong babies. IIRC they say they didn't wear shoes because they hoped to strengthen their feet that way and not need them.

I dunno how much 'admiration' of Sparta there is. The sacrifice at Thermopylae is an inspiring event and helps create the Greek idea that they (the Greeks as a whole) were a superior people and culture, but mostly Sparta seems to be referenced because of what daily life was, not because of true military feats. If anything their main feat was oppressing so many enslaved people, there was like 10 oppressed persons to 1 Spartan, and their lives were grueling. But they get a happy ending when Sparta weakens because they go off to form IIRC Megalopolis which was the 'melting pot' before America.

From that, yeah Sparta does drop off in power and isn't exactly what it used to be, but its prime was super militaristic

I don't believe what you're describing could be called a barrack. What I think you're describing is what is called the syssitia which is basically a place where members of the leisure class hung out to drink, dine, have fun, and do exercise. The difference with Sparta is that they made it mandatory for their citizens to spend all evening there than head home later. As for the Spartan's state education, they were teaching them to be good citizens more than actually training warriors. They were thought to endure hardships and be obedient to their elders. As for training, there's nothing to suggest they actually trained in martial affairs and we even have others saying they didn't train with their weapons.

if this skill in arms is an accomplishment (...) I conceive that if there were anything in it, it would not have been overlooked by the Lacedaemonians, whose only concern in life is to seek out and practise Plat. Lach. 182e

In fact we have no proof that individual Spartans were better fighters than other Greeks. During their occupation of Thebes young Thebans were encouraged to take the Spartans on wrestling and we hear that the Spartans banned wrestling later. During their height the Spartans only won once in combat sports but won 11 times in chariot racing in the Olympics.

Another thing to take into consideration is that Spartan citizenship was tied to how much wealth you had. It wasn't tied to how well you did in combat or how much martial skill you possessed. The times we hear of Spartans surrendering in battle we never hear of any punishment in fear of causing a civil war among the citizen body.

What made the Spartan's formidable in war was their organization, formation drill and their ability to maintain cohesion. While other Greeks went into battle running and screaming the Spartans went into battle calmly, marching in step to the sound of flutes which terrified the other Greeks. Their ability to submit to military discipline gave them the edge. As Xenophon harshly criticizes the Athenian levy:

Ah yes, and strange indeed it is that such men submit themselves to their masters, and yet the infantry and cavalry, who are supposed to be the pick of the citizens for good character, are the most insubordinate. Xen. Mem. 3.5.19
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