Current Events > What's wrong with the NRA

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Sephiroth1288 posted...

Yeah, because if you have no recourse to run, a gun is the closest thing you could have to an assurance that you'll survive.

Darmik posted...

Run-Hide-Fight is the best practice for active shooter response, but the standard best practice for robbery response is compliance

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Sephiroth1288 posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

99.9% of people can not buy a gun and never be murdered. 99.9% can not buy healthcare and you end up with lots of sick and dead people. It is not really a choice. You can find cheap food or cheap clothes. Healthcare is not a thing you can necessarily penny pinch. You need what you need. Diseases and injuries also don't always give a f*** how healthy of a lifestyle you live. You can be born with or develop issues just by virtue of being born to your parents, or your body will just f*** up because it feels like it, or accidents happen.

You say this like it somehow changes the meaning of a "right". Try to focus on why you brought up healthcare in the first place: Again, having the "right" to bear arms does not mean the government must give you a gun. A "right" to healthcare therefore does not mean the government must pay your bills. Therefore it's not hypocritical to support gun rights while also not wanting a welfare state.

Oh please. If gun prices shot up 500%, the GOP and gun owners around the country would be having a fucking coronary about this barrier to their 2nd Amendment right. My argument is that the GOP does not even support access to healthcare as vehemently as they support access to guns AND that healthcare is far more necessary than guns. Just like you, they are perfectly ok with people suffering and dying because "not suffering diseases is not a right and TECHNICALLY you have access to whatever care you need. Should have been better with money if you didn't want to choose between poverty and suffering for that disease you couldn't control contracting."
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

Darmik posted...

Sephiroth1288 posted...

Darmik posted...

Yeah I don't think anyone, anywhere encourages employees to gun down robbers.

What's the third word in "run-hide-fight"?

Good god man did you read the entire thing?

Remember you brought up armed robberies.

Yeah, because if you have no recourse to run, a gun is the closest thing you could have to an assurance that you'll survive.

The average company still does not let you carry at work and you are still not encouraged to fight. It is presented as the worst-case scenario when there are no other choices left.
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hockeybub89 posted...

Oh please. If gun prices shot up 500%, the GOP and gun owners around the country would be having a f***ing coronary about this barrier to their 2nd Amendment right.

What? No they wouldn't, unless the price increase was from some arbitrary government fee along with the standard tax rate.

hockeybub89 posted...

My argument is that the GOP does not even support access to healthcare as vehemently as they support access to guns

Yeah, because healthcare is not a right and nor should it be

hockeybub89 posted...

The average company still does not let you carry at work and you are still not encouraged to fight. It is presented as the worst-case scenario when there are no other choices left.

I'm not concerned with company policies. My entire point was that Cyric's post was dumb for suggesting that the idea that a person would ever need a gun is insane.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

Yeah, because healthcare is not a right and nor should it be

Why not? What if someone can't afford the healthcare they need?
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hockeybub89 posted...

Why not?

Because healthcare includes the labor of another person. On a fundamental level you shouldn't have a right to another person's time.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Why not?

Because healthcare includes the labor of another person. On a fundamental level you shouldn't have a right to another person's time.

We already have rights to education, rights to legal counsel.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Why not?

Because healthcare includes the labor of another person. On a fundamental level you shouldn't have a right to another person's time.

According to whose fundamentals? Are people that work for the government victims of slavery? Are any regulations on private companies oppressive?

According to my fundamentals and anyone with empathy, letting people suffer is wrong.
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Nothing. Theres nothing wrong with supporting an existing right.
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Cause people in the NRA usually are republicans thus triggering the left
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hockeybub89 posted...

According to whose fundamentals?

According to the fundamentals of all existing rights

Which other amendment requires the labor of another person in order for you to have?
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

Which other amendment requires the labor of another person in order for you to have?

The right to a fair trial requires judges, juries, and lawyers.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

Which other amendment requires the labor of another person in order for you to have?

Public Defender
Teacher

Hell, doesn't the second imply the existence of gun makers?
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the whole "can't force people to work for you" has always been the weirdest argument against universal healthcare imo. people bringing up slavery and shit is straight up bizarre
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prince_leo posted...

the whole "can't force people to work for you" has always been the weirdest argument against universal healthcare imo. people bringing up slavery and shit is straight up bizarre

It's weird. Do they think doctors and paramedics don't want to help people? Do they work on commission in the US or something?
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Anyways my problem with the NRA is that their current focus is 20% guns and 80% conservative paranoia (used in part to Stoke the desire for guns). It's why Wayne Lapierre's speech at CPAC today was a long rant about socialists in the Democratic Party. It's why the NRA said fuck-all about Philandro Castile, a teacher whose 2nd Amendment right resulted in death at the hands of a trigger happy cop.
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Its just the boogeyman-of-the-month. In March itll probably rotate back to Russia.
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NRA leadership has in part created its opposition by tying its cause to that of conservative politics as a whole. It's not hard to imagine a single-issue gun organization that doesn't do culture war bullshit, or create videos like this:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921390510576562176

Maybe such an organization wouldn't engender such disapproval from non-conservatives.
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KarmaMuffin posted...

Sephiroth1288 posted...

Which other amendment requires the labor of another person in order for you to have?

Public Defender
Teacher

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2012/08/do-i-have-a-right-to-a-public-defender.html

Generally, the Constitution just gives you the right to have legal counsel if you are charged with a crime. It does not necessarily mean you have the right to free counsel -- or the right to use a public defender -- especially if you are wealthy and can afford an attorney on your own.

As for teachers, nope. Kids can get expelled from public schools. That's not a matter of their rights being violated.

Antifar posted...

NRA leadership has in part created its opposition by tying its cause to that of conservative politics as a whole. It's not hard to imagine a single-issue gun organization that doesn't do culture war bulls***, or create videos like this:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921390510576562176

So the NRA is evil because its partisan in favor of Republicans. Gotcha.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

As for teachers, nope. Kids can get expelled from public schools. That's not a matter of their rights being violated

But if they don't get expelled, teachers have to teach them. How mad does this make you? What about the fact that police and fire kind of have to respond to your legitimate 911 calls? Or the fact a judge needs to be present at your fair trial?
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hockeybub89 posted...

But if they don't get expelled, teachers have to teach them.

So it's not a right.
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There is partisanship, and there is claiming that Trump is suffering the most ruthless attacks any president has ever received (reminder: we've had presidents assassinated), that the media and leakers are "saboteurs," "driving their daggers through the heart of our future." "They will perish in the political flames of their own fires" is paranoid propaganda that wouldn't be out of place coming from the villain in a dystopian movie.

And it's all in the service, not of upholding gun rights, but profit. They profit less if Democrats aren't painted as an evil force working to undermine America.
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Hinakuluiau posted...

At this point I'm not sure Mal is a real conservative and just likes to make them look bad.

This seems accurate
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

So it's not a right.

How do you reconcile this logic with the fact that felons aren't allowed to own guns?
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Antifar posted...

There is partisanship, and there is claiming that Trump is suffering the most ruthless attacks any president has ever received

In terms of negative media, that's correct.

Antifar posted...

Sephiroth1288 posted...

So it's not a right.

By that principle, neither is gun ownership, which isn't extended to felons.

You don't need to have committed a crime in order to get expelled from school.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

But if they don't get expelled, teachers have to teach them.

So it's not a right.

What kind of asinine logic is this?
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Btw Do you think that someone expelled from a school then...just doesn't get placed in another school? Like, being expelled is not being prohibited from education any more than not being able to buy a particular gun is having your right to bear arms taken away.
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Antifar posted...

Btw Do you think that someone expelled from a school then...just doesn't get placed in another school?

Yeah, not only is it a right, it's mandated until you're legal age to drop out. This is a really asinine tangent he went on.
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Antifar posted...

Btw Do you think that someone expelled from a school then...just doesn't get placed in another school?

Not necessarily.

The only way you can legally lose your rights is through due process. No due process is involved in being expelled from school.
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Teachers don't decide who gets expelled on their own anyway. They most certainly can't just choose to expel a kid if they don't want to teach them. What a weird rebuttal.
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Darmik posted...

Teachers don't decide who gets expelled on their own anyway.

No, but the administrators do.

Look, I know you guys desperately want to justify how healthcare can be a right, but it's not. It's dissimilar to every other right in the Constitution in every meaningful way.
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The Constitution can be amended. And it's not the sole source of rights in the world; there are 200 other countries.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

No, but the administrators do.

Yes. And they need to justify it. They can't just expel a kid because they don't like them.

Besides do you think doctors in countries with public healthcare are forced to take care of disruptive patients? That would be the only way this comparison makes sense.
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Antifar posted...

The Constitution can be amended.

Ok bro, best of luck with that.

Until then, healthcare isn't a right.

Darmik posted...

Yes. And they need to justify it. They can't just expel a kid because they don't like them.

If a school administrator can take it away from you, it isn't a right. Suspension of your rights must involve due process.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

Until then, healthcare isn't a right.

It is in many other countries.
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Antifar posted...

Sephiroth1288 posted...

Until then, healthcare isn't a right.

It is in many other countries.

Good for them. It isn't in the US.
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Antifar posted...

Sephiroth1288 posted...

Until then, healthcare isn't a right.

It is in many other countries.

Pretty much all civilized countries have been able to decide whether or not healthcare is a right or not. We're behind the rest of the civilized world.
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byron posted...

byron posted...

Antifar posted...

@Sephiroth1288 posted...

So it's not a right.

How do you reconcile this logic with the fact that felons aren't allowed to own guns?

Sephiroth1288 posted...

You don't need to have committed a crime in order to get expelled from school.

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Sephiroth1288 posted...

Suspension of your rights must involve due process.

Like...expelling a child from school?

This conversation is weird.
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SomeonesAlt posted...

Antifar posted...

Sephiroth1288 posted...

Until then, healthcare isn't a right.

It is in many other countries.

Pretty much all civilized countries have been able to decide whether or not healthcare is a right or not. We're behind the rest of the civilized world.

Some of those civilized countries don't have the right to free expression. We should get rid of that too to be more like them.
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Darmik posted...

Like...expelling a child from school?

Do you know what due process is?

Like, involving a judge and jury?
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

SomeonesAlt posted...

Antifar posted...

Sephiroth1288 posted...

Until then, healthcare isn't a right.

It is in many other countries.

Pretty much all civilized countries have been able to decide whether or not healthcare is a right or not. We're behind the rest of the civilized world.

Some of those civilized countries don't have the right to free expression. We should get rid of that too to be more like them.

Why can't we have both? I thought this was supposed to be the greatest country on Earth.
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You don't need to commit a crime to be prohibited from purchasing a gun, given the mental health exceptions. Or those barred while awaiting trial.
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byron posted...

Yeah, not only is it a right, it's mandated until you're legal age to drop out. This is a really asinine tangent he went on.

Bringing up healthcare in the first place was the tangent...
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Intro2Logic posted...

You don't need to commit a crime to be prohibited from purchasing a gun, given the mental health exceptions. Or those barred while awaiting trial.

Both of these things involve due process.
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