Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic: Now with 100% more skill

(+) Yeah! (+)

Am I the only one irrationally bothered having packs from the new expansion sitting there, unable to be opened?

Also, boy is that */5 wins for the month graphic after every game annoying.
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I was hoping we'd get something skill related in the title.
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davidponte posted...

I was hoping we'd get something skill related in the title.

To be fair, there wasn't a whole hell of a lot else to go with. I'm not sure there were any other conversations going on in the topic over the last couple of pages and there hasn't been many Witchwood cards shown recently that are anything but 'eh'.

I'm glad it's not Gadgetzan, but damn we've seen something like half the cards now and nothing really looks that exciting so far.
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Camden posted...

I'm glad it's not Gadgetzan, but damn we've seen something like half the cards now and nothing really looks that exciting so far.

Yeah I was thinking about preordering because 70 packs is a good deal, but nothing from the set really grabs my attention. I'm interested in the even/odd memes and that's about it. I'm sure the good cards will find homes but most of the set feels pretty bland.
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Personally I think Wing Blast is a very good card, but I seem to be in the minority on that one based on the discussion from the last topic.

But yeah most of the other cards are just kind of whatever at this point.
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Wing Blast is good AF.

I just wanna see if Paladin gets a class dragon
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I bring to you... the 10 cards I can't wait to see go away (from least to most excited)

Mark of the Lotus
-This gets the lowest spot because like druid is not really a thing right now, but this when aggro druid is good is insane. Like if innervate was unnerfed I think druid is the dominant aggro deck and this is a big reason why.

Potion of Madness
-PoM way overkill for a class that already has tons of ways to kill of small minions and buff dudes up beyond normal trading in the early game.

Cloaked Huntress
-This saw like limited play. I don't run into it much but when I do it's like the most infuriating thing ever,

Dirty Rat
-While breaking up combos is nice and all, there should be other ways to disrupt them versus like playing something like this. Like for every instance i can hold this for a max chance of getting like nzoth or antonidas... other times I just have to use it and lose the game.

Firelands Portal
-Let me tell you, if I get one more 1/1.

Netherspite Historian
-Not as much her fault as like the priest dragon package is like really strong and she's the reason why.

Drakonid Operative
-Roses are red, violets are blue. Secret Agent Coming through. I'm stealing your stuff so I can use your cards to beat you.

Ice Block
-Ice Block makes too many matchups feel unwinnable.

Every card with "jade" in it.
-This is really more for Jade Idol, because that card is stupid, but every time I face jade anything (well except rogue... because I can't tell you the last time I saw one), they always seem to have like almost the entire meta covered with their deck.

Barnes
-Barnes is the only card in the game that makes me not want to play hearthstone.
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agree with pretty much all of those, though I don't hate Barnes as much as most

I think the concept of Barnes is actually a cool card. you can't just throw him in any deck and have him be good. you have to build a deck around him. the issue is that certain classes have enough cards to support this type of deck while other classes do not. I agree the Barnes decks that have existed near the top of the meta at times have been pretty problematic overall. although personally I've usually played deck that don't have much of a problem with them. that might be the only reason it bothers me less.
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KokoroAkechi posted...

Netherspite Historian

KokoroAkechi posted...

Drakonid Operative

Dear lord yes

Can't wait for the rotation. New set seems interesting and I'm down for a new meta.

I'm kinda sad mill is going away though. I've made this terrible Togwaggle Rogue Mill deck which doesn't work most of the time, but when it does it's really amusing.
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All of those priest cards rotating is fantastic. All of them should have cost at least 1 more mana

I'm going to miss Dirty Rat. Though I guess not too bad, since the main place I'd want to play it is in Wild anyway, to disrupt the combo Druids, but I'll still miss it.

I think the main thing I'm dreading about Witchwood is that the Old Gods are leaving, which means Spiteful decks are going to be obscene. The only remaining possibilities for 10-drops after rotation are Deathwing, Sea Giant, and Ultrasaur. The only things leaving hope with those was that they could possibly semi-whiff and get a 12-stat Old God. Now the minimum is 16-stats, and the average is over 20.
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Tyrantus?

davidponte posted...

Personally I think Wing Blast is a very good card, but I seem to be in the minority on that one based on the discussion from the last topic.

To be clear, I don't think Wing Blast is bad. I just posted my unfiltered reaction to it and then talked it out. It definitely has its place.

Oh yeah, plus Tyrantus.
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Feel like Spiteful Priest is losing too much with Operative and Im iffy on Druid
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UltimaterializerX posted...

There is no debate when Blizzard's own staff told me I am right, genius.

Well there actually is a debate there because even assuming you're not full of crap with that story (frankly a stretch, considering how much more elaborate and embellished it's become over time) Blizzard's own staff having an intended design paradigm does not mean they succeed at that paradigm. In addition, Blizzard could have some staff that misunderstood certain things about the game's design, or even just told you this as a joke because you seemed really upset about it.

For an example of the first if you listen to League of Legends game designers there are certain things they claim they try to achieve, but if you look at the design of a lot of champions and items it's clear they just throw things at a wall sometimes. The big one I always get a laugh at is they try to remove "burden of knowledge" while at the same time half the new champions they make have a bunch of non-intuitive spell effects that have different effects depending on when and how you use them with unclear correlation to the particles and limited synergy. Put on top of that it's also a purported goal in a game with over 100 characters and hundreds of items-- I'm not sure I've ever played any game where I feel more overwhelmed by the amount of crap I need to learn to understand what's going on in the game, but staff will tell you that's a goal-- they have failed tremendously at that goal. Much like, if Hearthstone is intended to be a game that is 100% about being random and not involving player skill, it has failed tremendously at that goal.
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I work with about a dozen software developers, and if you pulled them all into a one on one interview about our products, I guarantee you'd never hear the same answers twice.

I have no trouble believing that blizzard isn't "trying to make Hearthstone an esport", but I also doubt that their goal is "exactly 50% win rates for every player". The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Yeah I mean there are far too many random effects in the game for the goal of Hearthstone to be about pure skill. There is definitely some "random=fun" sentiment there. It's probably something along the lines of tripping and more powerful items existing in Smash Bros Brawl to make the game more casual or whatever.

Which I mean, tripping is garbage, but no one is saying "THERE IS NO SKILL IN BRAWL" either. Cause that's just asinine.
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we've all told him this a dozen times already, he just doesn't want to listen. likely because it's probably hilarious from his POV that people keep responding to something that is obviously 100% not true as if we believe that he actually believes it.
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I dunno man. Someone who plays the game as much as he does would probably be better at the game if he didn't believe it. I just wanna see Ulti improve.
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I mean the alternative that you're proposing, that he actually believes it, just makes talking to him even more pointless. you'd legitimately have to be as dumb as a rodent to believe that there is 0 impact of skill on your results in the game. if Ulti is actually THAT dumb then there is really no point in trying to convince him of anything. might as well try to convince him to find his way through a maze so he can get some cheese at the end.
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KokoroAkechi posted...

I bring to you... the 10 cards I can't wait to see go away (from least to most excited)

Mark of the Lotus
Potion of Madness
Cloaked Huntress
Dirty Rat
Firelands Portal
Netherspite Historian
Drakonid Operative
Ice Block
Every card with "jade" in it. (except rogue)
Barnes

Mark - is pretty ridiculous. Beatable, but ridiculous.
Potion - Oh god, yes. Most annoying card ever.
Huntress - meh.
Dirty Rat - I'd actually rather see Dirty Rat stay. It has a random effect, but it's still very skill-testing sometimes. (Don't tell Ulti.)
Firelands - is fine, other than giving mage more burn options
Historian - doesn't bother me much
Drak OP - was known to be absurd the moment everyone saw it
Ice Block - good riddance
Jade - thank you for making the exemption for rogue, though the shaman cards aren't terribad. If you took idol away from druid and forced them to play with as many cards as rogue has, jade would probably be a non-issue.
Barnes - in a vacuum, Barnes is fine. But between Y'shaarj and resurrect effects, he's not fun at all.

And I agree that there's nothing interesting about Witchwood yet. I was thinking about pre-ordering for the first time ever, just to get a little ahead on gold and not have to blow my whole wad. Maybe get 100 packs total, and save the rest. But there is absolutely nothing that makes me jump at this set other than the even-mana start of game dude, and that's more of a challenge than an easy build.

Question: what even or odd decks do you think are even viable?
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I'm 90% sure I know the answer, but will 0-cost cards count as even?

I dunno man I think he did get better at Warcraft 3 once he stopped saying "LOL HERO UNITS ARE OP THIS GAME IS TRASH" every time he'd lose and actually tried to improve.

I think it's less he legitimately believes the game is 100% luck based and more he thinks he's playing as well as he can and that the game is like 80% luck based or something. Both are wrong but one is wrong in a way where getting the guy to realize he's wrong might actually make him try and be better at the game.
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It's kinda like when people who don't know basketball say only the last 2 minutes matters. Sure, a lot of games are decided in the last 2 minutes, but you can often avoid that game state by playing better for the rest of the game.

Oh god, I'm going to hate Bellringer Sentry

Paladin 4 mana 3/4
Battlecry and Deathrattle: put a secret from your deck into the battlefield

turbopuns2 posted...

I'm 90% sure I know the answer, but will 0-cost cards count as even?

Yes.
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His issue I think is what several people have said already, it's that his ego is so fragile that he makes every situation into a win-win for him to protect it. Got a bad beat that made him lose? Game's fault, opponent was just lucky, you aren't better than me, etc. 100% of the time. Beat an opponent? It's obviously 100% his skill, 100% of the time. Like he's trying to take the best of both worlds (assuming this is what he actually thinks and isn't just trolling) and you just...can't.

Like I wouldn't be surprised if ulti is capable of playing better, but doesn't because he's afraid it'll break him if he tries as hard as he can and still loses sometimes, so he gives himself the moral highground by just ****ing around so he can tell himself "well if I REALLY TRIED I could have totally beat that guy." Although that is merely conjecture on my part.
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Yeah. I know it's a mathenatical fact, just didn't want to take for granted that they'd uphold that, lol.

The phrasing on those even odd cards is kinda curious...do they trigger when you have no cards in your deck?

From a gameplay design perspective, I assume yes. But technically I wouldn't say a deck "contains only odd cost cards" if it contains no cards.

Even Shaman and Paladin seem like theyll be ok

Strongest cards seem to be Godfrey, the Nightmare Amalgalm, the 2 mana 2/2 divine shield taunt Paladin minion, Wing Blast, And Voodoo Doll
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I still think Jade Idol gets a bad rap just because it was the first of these "anti-fatigue" cards they made. Now they're exploring the design space there and it doesn't seem bad at all. Straight up fatigue as a win con has been garbage for a long time, and not just because of Jade Idol. Cards like Idol and Kingsbane and Dead Man's Hand just have redefined what a "fatigue deck" is. Most decks don't have a plan for fatigue, so if you do, you're a fatigue deck.
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Im very sad to see dragon priest go
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Final card reveal on Monday, set releases a week from today. Expected, it's (pretty much?) always a Thursday release about a third of the way into the month.

turbopuns2 posted...

Yeah. I know it's a mathenatical fact, just didn't want to take for granted that they'd uphold that, lol.

The phrasing on those even odd cards is kinda curious...do they trigger when you have no cards in your deck?

From a gameplay design perspective, I assume yes. But technically I wouldn't say a deck "contains only odd cost cards" if it contains no cards.

Reno cards activate on an empty deck, so I don't see why these wouldn't. It's worded slightly differently but I imagine it should work the same. I'd be more interested in knowing what happens with cards that have reduced mana costs. I'm assuming cards from something like Renounce Darkness have their original mana cost while in the deck and only show the reduced cost after you draw it?
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MrSmartGuy posted...

I think the main thing I'm dreading about Witchwood is that the Old Gods are leaving, which means Spiteful decks are going to be obscene. The only remaining possibilities for 10-drops after rotation are Deathwing, Sea Giant, and Ultrasaur. The only things leaving hope with those was that they could possibly semi-whiff and get a 12-stat Old God. Now the minimum is 16-stats, and the average is over 20.

The new hunter legendary is also a 10 mana 8/8, along with the previously mentioned Tyrantus.

LiquidOshawott posted...

Even Shaman and Paladin seem like theyll be ok

Strongest cards seem to be Godfrey, the Nightmare Amalgalm, the 2 mana 2/2 divine shield taunt Paladin minion, Wing Blast, And Voodoo Doll

Paladin gets a bunch of strong/useful cards in general, that class is going to be gross. The Worgen Abomination card that was revealed earlier today is going to be a terror in arena at a minimum, maybe it sees play in warrior?

Weve barely seen anything out of Mage so far, and Druid/Mage/Priest/Shaman/Warlock dont have echo cards yet, those will be things Im watching for.
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Does anyone know when the last day to pre-order is? I assumed the day before the expansion hits, but the wording on the recent announcement post makes it seem like it might be sooner than that.
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God, I just played a Dragon Priest v Dragon Priest match where no one was playing combo or cheat, so it was going to take 45 minutes for someone to win. Thankfully he Drakonid OP'd a Nozdormu up, which I stole by giving it two attack, though it was passed around three or four more times during the match by the time it was over.

And then I guess we just had an understanding not to kill it because it survived until I had two cards left in my deck before it died to a Malygos infused Spirit Lash.
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Camden posted...

Reno cards activate on an empty deck, so I don't see why these wouldn't. It's worded slightly differently but I imagine it should work the same. I'd be more interested in knowing what happens with cards that have reduced mana costs. I'm assuming cards from something like Renounce Darkness have their original mana cost while in the deck and only show the reduced cost after you draw it?

Well...yeah the wording is slightly different from Reno but the literal interpretation of it is quite different. Reno says "if your deck contains no duplicates". It's easy to empirically say the deck contains 0 duplicates. But when you say "contains only X", it logically does not compute to true if the deck contains nothing. That was my point. I mean it depends on how you define "only" I guess.

I'm with you on the standpoint that "probably yes", but it bothers my programmer brain.

Just opened a Kingsbane from a quest pack. Time to never play it!
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For people saying theres like nothing interesting.

We are losing two sets and an adventure. So the card pool is like destroyed
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KokoroAkechi posted...

For people saying theres like nothing interesting.

We are losing two sets and an adventure. So the card pool is like destroyed

Well yeah, but rotation would happen regardless of what the cards are. Not saying the set is bad, or it won't see play. Echo and Rush seem like good mechanics. They're just kind of bland.
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KokoroAkechi posted...

For people saying theres like nothing interesting.

We are losing two sets and an adventure. So the card pool is like destroyed

Which is all the more reason why this set has to be interesting.

It's not.

edit: Granted, I felt the same way about Un'goro, and I still think it was the weakest set of the year despite what the pros on omnistone concluded, but at least there were things I found interesting about that set. If rogue quest hadn't been the most god-awful annoying card to play against, I probably wouldn't have minded Un'goro meta. The other quests and the elemental stuff were interesting. That at least caught my attention, anyway. There's nothing yet that captivates my interest.
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Was Kokoro's point that the set will have its interesting factor enhanced by the fact that its significance is higher due to coming at a time when the meta will be shaken up moreso than usual

Yes, and our point is that the cards being more significant doesn't make their designs more appealing.
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Ok just wanted to be sure I was following along correctly.

I guess I personally don't put as much emphasis on whether the card design is interesting in a vacuum. I just like a new meta in general. Of course it could turn out to be a drag once it settles, but new content is exciting in its own way.

turbopuns2 posted...

I just like a new meta in general.

I only like a new meta when there's something about it to like. I haven't really been a fan of any of the sets that came out last year. I did, in fact, like Mean Streets (say what you will) and also Old Gods. But I didn't really dislike the 2017 sets or expect them to be boring going in. So far with Witchwood, there are literally zero archetypes I'm interested in playing, and there's very little that's going to push some of the old decks aside that I can see. So it's not going to be a new meta so much as a more focused meta where we've eliminated half the old decks and are saddled with one of the survivors. Or we try to make something out of nothing.

Here's to hoping they've saved some good stuff for the remaining reveals.
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yeah a lot of the new cards seem to have a weak power level which means I'm not sure how much the meta will really be shaken up. some of the current top decks aren't even losing any of their big power cards.
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