Poll of the Day > Honest query: Are people who call ICE on undocumented citizens bad people?

(+) Yeah! (+)

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

If you're calling Immigration and Customs Enforcement on someone it's because that person isn't a US citizen.

BRB calling ICE on the Chinese tourists at the space needle

I'm going to assume that if they are tourists then they have the proper documentation to have entered the country legally. The "citizen" in undocumented citizens is why I think that term makes no sense. Here, you are apparently using my criticism as an excuse to ignore the "undocumented" part entirely.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

I'm going to assume that if they are tourists then they have the proper documentation to have entered the country legally.

are they citizens
y/n
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look at europe and the problems it's facing with these muslim communities that practice sharia law
I don't like other people stepping on other peoples toes when they're out in public
which some of them most certainly do
they want their kids to go to schools founded in places like germany but they want them to wear a hijab, not shave, not eat pigs
it's like good god already go back

RoboXgp89 posted...

look at europe and the problems it's facing with these muslim communities that practice sharia law
I don't like other people stepping on other peoples toes when they're out in public

Ugh, the problem with Europe is that the immigrants are outright breaking the law and the police are being told to ignore them...

Kinda the opposite situation, arguably worse... idk
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happy holidays *hangs self*

Zeus posted...

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Lokarin posted...

Why would obeying the law make you a bad person?

Laws don't always line up with our personal morals so I'm trying to gauge how we feel about calling immigration enforcement since it's a legal tiff but morally also

That's a pathetic excuse for flouting the law. As for morality, people who choose to cheat the system by sneaking across the border or overstaying rather than waiting their turn -- thereby cutting the line formed by everybody who wants to do things the right way -- are bad on that grounds alone. For the sake of everybody who does things the wrong way, you have a moral imperative to report those breaking the law to gain an unfair advantage.

So you are a sheep then? That is what people said about whites who helped black slaves scape a few decades ago

No because they're making the country a better place.

DrChocolate posted...

Zeus posted...

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Lokarin posted...

Why would obeying the law make you a bad person?

Laws don't always line up with our personal morals so I'm trying to gauge how we feel about calling immigration enforcement since it's a legal tiff but morally also

That's a pathetic excuse for flouting the law. As for morality, people who choose to cheat the system by sneaking across the border or overstaying rather than waiting their turn -- thereby cutting the line formed by everybody who wants to do things the right way -- are bad on that grounds alone. For the sake of everybody who does things the wrong way, you have a moral imperative to report those breaking the law to gain an unfair advantage.

So you are a sheep then? That is what people said about whites who helped black slaves scape a few decades ago

Gets morality from the law: Sheep

Gets morality from a book of lies: Enlightened?
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RoboXgp89 posted...

I know that religion is bullshit but the idea of going to someone elses country to build a mosque is just as bullshit to me too
star wars is a relgion to some people...

So then it should be weird that christians busted in here like the kool aid man and started building churches?
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RoboXgp89 posted...

look at europe and the problems it's facing with these muslim communities that practice sharia law
I don't like other people stepping on other peoples toes when they're out in public
which some of them most certainly do
they want their kids to go to schools founded in places like germany but they want them to wear a hijab, not shave, not eat pigs
it's like good god already go back

How exactly is all that stepping on the toes of others? Why would a child wearing a hijab bother anyone? It doesnt prevent wearing a school uniform, if the school has one.

Violence is a concern. What other people worship, wear, (not) eat, or (not) shave is not.

At the very least this is a more intelligent discussion than does time travel abortions count as murder
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EvilMegas posted...

RoboXgp89 posted...

I know that religion is bullshit but the idea of going to someone elses country to build a mosque is just as bullshit to me too
star wars is a relgion to some people...

So then it should be weird that christians busted in here like the kool aid man and started building churches?

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RoboXgp89 posted...

I know that religion is bullshit but the idea of going to someone elses country to build a mosque is just as bullshit to me too
star wars is a relgion to some people...

Then its pretty fucked up that Europeans came here and built all these damn churches
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

are they citizens
y/n

They are not.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

are they citizens
y/n

They are not.

BRB calling ICE on the Chinese tourists at the space needle
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Yellow posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OjTspCqvk8" data-time="

White Americans, what
Nothing better to do
Why don't you kick yourself out
You're an immigrant too

That's what happens when you don't have meaningful border controls.

Jack white can stay

Mead posted...

RoboXgp89 posted...

I know that religion is bullshit but the idea of going to someone elses country to build a mosque is just as bullshit to me too
star wars is a relgion to some people...

Then its pretty fucked up that Europeans came here and built all these damn churches

A little different than going into a city that practices Christianity and building a mosque...

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

BRB calling ICE on the Chinese tourists at the space needle

Calling ICE indicates you have concluded that someone is in the country illegally.
A citizen is not someone you would come to this conclusion about.
If you recognize someone as a tourist then you realize they are properly documented and would not come to this conclusion about them.
However, if you have reached this conclusion then that means you perceive that person to be nether a citizen of the US nor properly documented to be in the country.
What I pointed out earlier is that a scenario where someone is a citizen but not properly documented to be in the country doesn't make sense.
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No. They're being conscientious citizens.
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Lolno. The resources are locked away in billionaire's vaults and government caches, the resources aren't actually available for use.

I don't see how this changes anything I said.

So you don't actually have them, they're "spent" in an inaccessible space. Your argument is like saying "We have tonnes more oil! It's just miles underground out of reach of current drills and in the air we breathe."
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My answer was "Maybe" but that's because it's dependent on the case. I do believe that illegal immigrants shouldn't be here as they do get in the way of those who want to immigrate legally getting in in a timely manner, but for those who call ICE on illegal immigrants it'd be case by case. If the illegal immigrants were known to cause problems in the neighborhood or city, perhaps even be known to be participating in a crime, then always no, the caller is not bad. If they have something against them and the illegal immigrants are good people who try not to cause trouble, then yes, they're bad people, but they're not wrong. If it gets to the point that they're calling on well behaved illegal immigrants without any bad intentions from the caller, it gets into the ambiguous territory.

EDIT: I want to thank everyone who's actually giving meaningful and well thought out comments on this thread and keeping it civil, I don't care what side of the argument you stand on but it's discussions like this that help people grow and learn.

FalinmerTheil posted...

My answer was "Maybe" but that's because it's dependent on the case. I do believe that illegal immigrants shouldn't be here as they do get in the way of those who want to immigrate legally getting in in a timely manner, but for those who call ICE on illegal immigrants it'd be case by case. If the illegal immigrants were known to cause problems in the neighborhood or city, perhaps even be known to be participating in a crime, then always no, the caller is not bad. If they have something against them and the illegal immigrants are good people who try not to cause trouble, then yes, they're bad people, but they're not wrong. If it gets to the point that they're calling on well behaved illegal immigrants without any bad intentions from the caller, it gets into the ambiguous territory.

EDIT: I want to thank everyone who's actually giving meaningful and well thought out comments on this thread and keeping it civil, I don't care what side of the argument you stand on but it's discussions like this that help people grow and learn.

How?
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Also, you would call the police on people who are causing disturbances not ICE...
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If one is calling ICE only because they know someone might not be a legal resident, they're an asshole.

And as far as "legal and illegal" immigration goes, we didn't have any immigration law in the US until the late 1800's. Anybody who came here prior to 1875 (i think) immigrated the same way as some people do today, they just showed up, gave a name, and never left. So when people say, "well, my ancestors came here legally and so should these Mexicans" there's a good chance they did it the exact same way as the people they're railing against.
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Yes.
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There is no reason any citizen should be callin ICE, ever.
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EvilMegas posted...

There is no reason any citizen should be callin ICE, ever.

yeah, ignore laws being broken
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Call the police, doof.
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funbot posted...

And as far as "legal and illegal" immigration goes, we didn't have any immigration law in the US until the late 1800's. Anybody who came here prior to 1875 (i think) immigrated the same way as some people do today, they just showed up, gave a name, and never left. So when people say, "well, my ancestors came here legally and so should these Mexicans" there's a good chance they did it the exact same way as the people they're railing against.

Oh, so because laws were different once, it's okay to ignore current ones? Because I don't see people being okay with me raiding neighbouring councils for supplies and women.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

funbot posted...

And as far as "legal and illegal" immigration goes, we didn't have any immigration law in the US until the late 1800's. Anybody who came here prior to 1875 (i think) immigrated the same way as some people do today, they just showed up, gave a name, and never left. So when people say, "well, my ancestors came here legally and so should these Mexicans" there's a good chance they did it the exact same way as the people they're railing against.

Oh, so because laws were different once, it's okay to ignore current ones? Because I don't see people being okay with me raiding neighbouring councils for supplies and women.

Like you could anyway.
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funbot posted...

Anybody who came here prior to 1875 (i think) immigrated the same way as some people do today, they just showed up, gave a name, and never left. So when people say, "well, my ancestors came here legally and so should these Mexicans" there's a good chance they did it the exact same way as the people they're railing against.

Or they came here in the past 140 years.
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How exactly are they citizens?
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

funbot posted...

Anybody who came here prior to 1875 (i think) immigrated the same way as some people do today, they just showed up, gave a name, and never left. So when people say, "well, my ancestors came here legally and so should these Mexicans" there's a good chance they did it the exact same way as the people they're railing against.

Or they came here in the past 140 years.

my ancestors fought in a civil war
everyone in my family helped ww2 and vietnam pretty much. no choice.
what is stopping them? the army is more than willing to accept these people
stupid liberal nonsense that we can't send border hoppers packing
but we let them drive cars, no wonder trump won

papercup posted...

How exactly are they citizens?

they live here

RoboXgp89 posted...

my ancestors fought in a civil war
everyone in my family helped ww2 and vietnam pretty much. no choice.
what is stopping them? the army is more than willing to accept these people

Funnily enough my own father is a naturalized citizen through the US Army, was only in Desert Storm, but somehow I am more worthy of being an American than someone else eh

My ancestors also fought in a civil war (that's still going on and the US is a big part of)
People in my family also fought in WW2 and Vietnam.
Does that mean they are more worthy of becoming Americans than Mexicans who have seen enough war on their own turf
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RoboXgp89 posted...

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

funbot posted...

Anybody who came here prior to 1875 (i think) immigrated the same way as some people do today, they just showed up, gave a name, and never left. So when people say, "well, my ancestors came here legally and so should these Mexicans" there's a good chance they did it the exact same way as the people they're railing against.

Or they came here in the past 140 years.

my ancestors fought in a civil war
everyone in my family helped ww2 and vietnam pretty much. no choice.
what is stopping them? the army is more than willing to accept these people
stupid liberal nonsense that we can't send border hoppers packing
but we let them drive cars, no wonder trump won

I'm not saying that it's right, I'm saying that the line between legal and illegal is constantly moving and 100 years isn't a long time. I find it ironic that that you would call them border hoppers when your family likely did the same thing if they were here pre civil war.

Oh, and Trump won because Hillary is a clown, haha. Not because some Mexican got a drivers license in Central CA to drive to go pick your lettuce for 15 hours a day for almost no money.
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There's really only 2 "right" ways to do things.

1) open border policy. Let anyone and everyone in no matter what.
2) Have a line with some form of criterias, and have enforcement for people who skip the line.

There's a lot of people who think that a third option "Have a line because we can't just let anyone in...oh but my neighbor skipped the line but they're so nice and sweet, you're meanies for yelling at them for skipping the line!" is a valid option. That's absurd.

If you're in the #1 camp, I don't agree with you, but at least you're morally consistent. I personally think that in a country where existing, legitimate citizen and people who went through the line still live in near 3rd world condition, having an open border policy is a really, really nasty move. You can't help others until you help your own. The US should have SOME quota for extreme cases (some amount of refugees, etc), but they don't have the resources and structure to take in everyone. So a line, and enforcement are necessary (I personally went through the line, so skip the "but but your ancestors did it too!").

come here through customs like my family did
and get auto-insurance on your car
30 million people don't give a shit

If the person is a problem and should be deported.. eh. If it's someone minding their own business trying to get by, you're probably a dick.

Zeus posted...

moral imperative to report those breaking the law to gain an unfair advantage.

Im not morally obligated to do what others want.
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DeathMagnetic80 posted...

If the person is a problem and should be deported.. eh. If it's someone minding their own business trying to get by, you're probably a dick.

even if they don't have car insurance and the cops ignore them when they get into crashes

please spare me

DeathMagnetic80 posted...

If the person is a problem and should be deported.. eh. If it's someone minding their own business trying to get by, you're probably a dick.

Again, thats not your call. Thats the government. You call the police for law breakers, not ICE. If you just assume someone is undocumented because they foreign, that's stereotyping and it means you're an asshole.

If ICE personally asks for your help? Sure, tell them whatever but you should never be calling them.
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kangolcone posted...

And how exactly do they have proof that there is no documentation?

You have to break into their place when they aren't at home and search for the documentation or lack thereof.
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I would wait until ICE questions you unless there's something like drugs being sold or you see a robbery by suspected illegals, then you probably want to call them. In most circumstances, no.
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EvilMegas posted...

Again, thats not your call. Thats the government. You call the police for law breakers, not ICE. If you just assume someone is undocumented because they foreign, that's stereotyping and it means you're an asshole.

All of this.
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ShadosAtPhoenix posted...

There's a lot of people who think that a third option "Have a line because we can't just let anyone in...oh but my neighbor skipped the line but they're so nice and sweet, you're meanies for yelling at them for skipping the line!" is a valid option. That's absurd.

There is, though, a pretty straightforward way to implement that: open up who's eligible for sponsorships.
https://www.uscis.gov/greencard/affidavit-support

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Zeus posted...

If you have a group standing in line and one guy says, "Fuck this, I'm just going in," and sneaks into the building, do you consider that fair? Because "I don't like the rules that everybody else is following so I'm going to ignore them for my advantage" is the antithesis of fair.

People don't just illegally immigrate into the US to "take advantage" of our system, though. I think that's a disingenuous and deliberately negative view to take of them. And I sincerely believe if the face of the average illegal immigrant was Asian (there are tons) and not Mexican we wouldn't have this. But that's not really relevant here.

....sneaking into the country is literally taking an unfair advantage over everybody waiting in line. Try to keep up. And I sincerely believe that if the average illegal immigrant was Asian, you'd be race-baiting saying that we wouldn't be objecting if they were Mexican.

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

It's because where they live can get so bad they are digging tunnels and climbing electric fences to get to a nation where half the nation treats them like subhumans (obviously there are bad elements that follow but I already touched on this, though you called them "weasel words")

The difficulty in breaking the law isn't a justification for breaking the law. That's a completely moronic argument. Bank robbers also put themselves at tremendous risk because they really, really want to get the money -_- And "weasel words" wasn't in reference to your implication of "bad hombres" but your bullshit attempt at downplaying the impact with vague generalities.

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

I don't believe this.
I have family members in sham green card marriages who got married in the 80s. Immigration was never easy into the United States for anyone, it was never fast, and the green card system is horrendously flawed, imo. The laws are also not very well enforced, as you pointed out.

It doesn't matter what you do or don't believe because it has no bearing on reality. The facts are the facts.

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

How do you feel about employers deliberately using undocumented workers so they can pay them less?
They are openly flouting the rules so they can get some extra cash. Not to change the subject, just curious

It's just one more harm caused by out of control illegal immigration, something not tolerated in other nations.
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Zeus posted...

....sneaking into the country is literally taking an unfair advantage over everybody waiting in line. Try to keep up. And I sincerely believe that if the average illegal immigrant was Asian, you'd be race-baiting saying that we wouldn't be objecting if they were Mexican.

Overstays on the part of Indian tech workers makes up a pretty big chunk.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/visa-and-immigration/illegal-indian-immigrants-in-us-many-overstayed-their-
tourist-or-student-visas-or-are-from-broken-marriages/articleshow/60986244.cms

Why is that worth a spoiler tag, anyway?

those asians would take our jobs regardless whether or not they stayed

Questionmarktarius posted...

ShadosAtPhoenix posted...

There's a lot of people who think that a third option "Have a line because we can't just let anyone in...oh but my neighbor skipped the line but they're so nice and sweet, you're meanies for yelling at them for skipping the line!" is a valid option. That's absurd.

There is, though, a pretty straightforward way to implement that: open up who's eligible for sponsorships.
https://www.uscis.gov/greencard/affidavit-support

That's still a kind of line, or rather a door people have to go through. If you implement that, you still need some kind of enforcement for people who skip THAT process. Else it's meaningless (I'm very, VERY much in favor of increasing eligibility for green cards and other visas. Dramatically. As long as those who don't qualify for even those drastically widened eligibility options don't get to ignore the rules too. Else it's just a silly theater).