Current Events > Both anti-trans bigots and transgender people are wrong about gender.

(+) Yeah! (+)

LinksLiege posted...

CiIantro posted...

It is honestly sad how entrenched you are in your beliefs. I will never understand why people like you get so triggered over gender.

I explicitly said in an earlier post that I'm not arguing whether they are or aren't. I'm pointing out that this is a bad argument which proves nothing - cultures believing this stuff doesn't mean it's true, any more than them rejecting gravity means it stops applying to them.

Dunno why I'm replying anyway - your reply is so stupid that I'm not convinced you're just a troll.

This is a bait topic, don't waste your time making sensible posts.
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Kaname_Madoka posted...

im not reading all that

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Also, trans people literally don't exist if gender is just a social construct. But everyone* knows trans people exist.
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CiIantro posted...

Esrac posted...

LinksLiege posted...

CiIantro posted...

It proves that gender is completely subjective and depends on the society in which you are raised.

No it doesn't. There's also the possibility that they're just wrong.

I'm not even arguing whether they are or aren't - I just don't like shitty arguments.

This.

Bringing up that there have been other cultures that have claimed more than two genders to prove that gender is constructed requires that you presuppose gender is socially constructed in the first place. Instead of allowing for the possibility that they're just incorrect.

I mean, it's not going to be compelling evidence for someone who defines gender as being based primarily on biological sex.

Ok, go ahead and ignore literally thousands of years of human history in order to reinforce your preconceived beliefs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#History
4History
4.1Mesopotamia
4.2Egypt
4.3Indic culture
4.4Mediterranean culture
4.5Israel
4.6The Americas
4.6.1Mesoamerica
4.6.2Inca
4.6.3Illiniwek

You're getting very close to they fallacious appeal to ancient wisdom nonsense I'd expect to see from alternative medicine cranks.

It doesn't matter if the beliefs were thousands of years old. The age of the beliefs doesn't make it any more or less valid. Should we respect the Four Humors understanding of medicine because it was commonly accepted as true for over a thousand years?
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CiIantro posted...

They are both full of crap. Gender is a social construct. It is nothing more than a set of behaviors that society expects different biological sexes to exhibit. These behaviors are completely arbitrary and have been defined differently throughout history.

Strange that different play behaviors exist in rats, and you can alter play preferences from interventions during the equivalent of prenatal development when sexual dimorphic features of the brain are developing then.
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LepartialJury posted...

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/study-finds-some-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women
https://psychcentral.com/news/2018/03/16/structural-brain-differences-for-transgender-people/133802.html
http://www.iflscience.com/brain/brain-imaging-reveals-differences-in-men-and-womens-brain-activity/

None of those studies are observing gender, they're just comparing statistical differences between groups. It's a huge stretch to say it proves that gender is an empirical phenomena.
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CiIantro posted...

scorpion41 posted...

Gender roles are a social construct, not gender itself. There are obvious differences between men and women that are evident during development. Now what role they play in the world? Thats up for debate.

No. What you described is biological sex.

Nope, he described gender. Sex is the physical version, gender is the mental.

Grey_Locus posted...

None of those studies are observing gender, they're just comparing statistical differences between groups

This sentence is nonsense, just so you know lol.
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COVxy posted...

Grey_Locus posted...

None of those studies are observing gender, they're just comparing statistical differences between groups

This sentence is nonsense, just so you know lol.

Would you mind explaining why?
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Gender as a means to describe a society's expectations of the sexes is absolutely a social construct. But more recently we also use gender when talking about the "sex of the brain," which is to say the perceived differences between male and female brains.

Now, all of this is still being looked into. And there's still questions regarding whether the distress faced by transgenders is caused by truly possessing a brain of the opposite gender, or by the brain perceiving that it's "not what it should be" in a less specific way.

Dragonblade01 posted...

Gender as a means to describe a society's expectations of the sexes is absolutely a social construct. But more recently we also use gender when talking about the "sex of the brain," which is to say the perceived differences between male and female brains.

Well, that's a pretty good explanation, there's a huge difference between both definitions. I guess we should define our terms before throwing claims around.
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Grey_Locus posted...

COVxy posted...

Grey_Locus posted...

None of those studies are observing gender, they're just comparing statistical differences between groups

This sentence is nonsense, just so you know lol.

Would you mind explaining why?

Because A has nothing to do with B.
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hockeybub89 posted...

CiIantro posted...

Gender is a social construct

*topic list*

Yeah, sticking your head in the sand when you see something that challenges your beliefs is admirable.

Biology influences or even determines social behavior. Gender is not a fake made-up conspiracy.
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Grey_Locus posted...

LepartialJury posted...

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/study-finds-some-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women
https://psychcentral.com/news/2018/03/16/structural-brain-differences-for-transgender-people/133802.html
http://www.iflscience.com/brain/brain-imaging-reveals-differences-in-men-and-womens-brain-activity/

None of those studies are observing gender, they're just comparing statistical differences between groups. It's a huge stretch to say it proves that gender is an empirical phenomena.

That is the gender. Gender is the structural differences of the brains between males and females, kind of like the physical structural differences between races.
What you guys are all referring to, the social behaviors and stereotypes commonly associated with whatever gender are gender roles and those are social constructs.
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LepartialJury posted...

That is the gender. Gender is the structural differences of the brains between males and females, kind of like the physical structural differences between races.
What you guys are all referring to, the social behaviors and stereotypes commonly associated with whatever gender are gender roles and those are social constructs.

Gender is usually defined with respect to the social and cultural differences between both sexes, which is something determined by the environment and not biology. Brain dimorphism is biological, so using the same word for an entirely different definition is really ambiguous but whatever, I don't make up the rules. As I said, the crux of this discussion is semantics.
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Grey_Locus posted...

LepartialJury posted...

That is the gender. Gender is the structural differences of the brains between males and females, kind of like the physical structural differences between races.
What you guys are all referring to, the social behaviors and stereotypes commonly associated with whatever gender are gender roles and those are social constructs.

Gender is usually defined with respect to the social and cultural differences between both sexes, which is something determined by the environment and not biology. Brain dimorphism is biological, so using the same word for an entirely different definition is really ambiguous but whatever, I don't make up the rules. As I said, the crux of this discussion is semantics.

Those are gender roles. Why would something and its possessive be synonyms? Yes, gender is biological. It's the "mental sex", it's not just an abstract concept.
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LepartialJury posted...

Those are gender roles. Why would something and its possessive be synonyms? Yes, gender is biological. It's the "mental sex", it's not just an abstract concept.

Don't argue with me, argue with the dictionaries.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender_role
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Well, you were right in the title at least.

Grey_Locus posted...

LepartialJury posted...

Those are gender roles. Why would something and its possessive be synonyms? Yes, gender is biological. It's the "mental sex", it's not just an abstract concept.

Don't argue with me, argue with the dictionaries.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender_role

Dictionary definitions are meant to be as simple and broad as possible so that people who don't know what they mean can understand in the broadest sense and also have multiple different definitions (like your link itself had) that often contradict each other. It's terrible for a nuanced subject like this and in this case is also very outdated.
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If gender is actually a social construct, why is it that in every culture in every society throughout history, men are the soldiers and women are the homemakers?

I'm not advocating that this is how things always must be, but it's certainly not right to say that these roles are only arbitrary societal constructs. They're pretty obviously ingrained in human instinct.
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OED has about as much credibility as Urban Dictionary at this point since they started publishing online they have more room for liberal (not politically, just unreserved use) interpretations.

Mal_Fet posted...

If gender is actually a social construct, why is it that in every culture in every society throughout history, men are the soldiers and women are the homemakers?

I'm not advocating that this is how things always must be, but it's certainly not right to say that these roles are only arbitrary societal constructs. They're pretty obviously ingrained in human instinct.

I wonder if leftists watching documentaries about the social structures in animals ever wonder where those animals got those made-up fake gender roles.
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Funbazooka posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

If gender is actually a social construct, why is it that in every culture in every society throughout history, men are the soldiers and women are the homemakers?

I'm not advocating that this is how things always must be, but it's certainly not right to say that these roles are only arbitrary societal constructs. They're pretty obviously ingrained in human instinct.

I wonder if leftists watching documentaries about the social structures in animals ever wonder where those animals got those made-up fake gender roles.

One of my steers tried to hump another one the other day, so obviously they don't follow these human concepts.

FairyLeviathan posted...

Funbazooka posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

If gender is actually a social construct, why is it that in every culture in every society throughout history, men are the soldiers and women are the homemakers?

I'm not advocating that this is how things always must be, but it's certainly not right to say that these roles are only arbitrary societal constructs. They're pretty obviously ingrained in human instinct.

I wonder if leftists watching documentaries about the social structures in animals ever wonder where those animals got those made-up fake gender roles.

One of my steers tried to hump another one the other day, so obviously they don't follow these human concepts.

I'm pretty sure people are aware that homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom too. But homosexuality isn't a gender role.
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